As one other hobbiest put it, but here is one that I don't think I have seen before...
For all of the divorced, never married, separated dudes out there...
Are you willing or do you desire to have a civvie relationship - or do you prefer - for as far foward as you can see - to use the hobby as your substitute female companion???
Oh, before you go gettin all high strung about it.... at least as far as I can see, I plan that route.... no plans to get serious again. (but who knows)....
Thanks.
As much as I have cared for some of the ladies I have met in the hobby and appreciated what we have shared, there is no way in hell it can compare to a real relationship.
I know I am in the minority on here, and maybe I have just been lucky (i.e., made good choices), but I have mostly dated women who were great in bed, open minded, and wonderful people in many ways. I got married and divorced when I was very young, and I have just wanted to make sure that when I marry again, I will want to be with that woman at the level I know it needs to be at for it to last. I have come close...very close...but am still looking.
The bottom line for me, though, is that there are things that you can get in a relationship that you can't even come close to in seeing a provider. You just have to be willing to do other things as well, like compromise, communicate, and give at times, and you need to understand yourself well enough to make a good choice about your partner. When you do these things, you can experience sex that is so much deeper than sex. It may not last at that level, but it doesn't have to sink to the levels many let it sink to.
Love is the drug.
(and yes, that was spoken like a true SINGLE guy...I'm sure you married guys out there are LYAO)
I am also divorced - but got married late in life... and while I miss being married - I do not miss my wife. funny, but over the past week - I have heard a lot about the work part of a happy marriage... and yet should it really be that much work, if it is really meant to be? My parents made it look easy, until my dad died. Yeah, wish I had found what he had, but didn't and sadly, I think that the hobby offers me more, than did my marriage - on the male/female level. there is an honesty in the hobby, that I did not find in the marriage....
Your perspective is appreciated - maybe not for me, but I do respect the perspective. peace.
about the parts of your mother that he didnt like? Probably not. He may have accepted her as she was and almost more importantly as she wasnt.
For him it was a choice to be happy how it was.
Remember, happiness is a choice, acceptance is true love.
I have been married for 10 years and love my wife very much. Sex with her always satisfies me. She has learned, over the past 15 years, how to please me. She is my soft landing spot, my biggest fan, and has a perfect face and body. I still ogle her from a distance on a regular basis. I treat her like the goddess that she is. Her life is idyllic and happy.
The only thing she does not -- and cannot give me -- is variety (in the sense of having different partners). After 3 years in the hobby, I have not found anyone who can match my wife's looks, nor am I trying. It was just about variety. Although I like filet mignon best, I still often want sushi or foie gras or rack of lamb instead. The variety that I have found in the hobby keeps me content. I like the idea, that with proper effort, you can find whatever type you want (or are in the mood for) in this hobby.
So I was enjoying my monogamous love relationship and relishing some occasional variety. The thought of falling in love with a provider -- no way. Life was perfect.
Just 2 days ago, I realized I do love my ATF and told her. She said she had been thinking about saying that to me several times, but was too scared. Gulp.
My ATF is off the market now. I first saw her about a year ago and didn't see her again for several months. I certainly wasn't looking for a relationship, but I coudln't stop it, we just had the chemistry. We now communicate almost daily. Very little actual $ has been exchanged.
I have a buddy who has been in this hobby and had a similar relationship that ended on a sour note. He thinks I should cool my engines.
I have been reading some of the posts and polls on how often this sort of thing happens. Evidently quite frequently! I don't know whether to feel relieved or disappointed. Do I want to be unique? Or do I want be understood?
I have really appreciated the introspection and eloquence of a few guys like MrSelfDestruct and JULY.
Do you more experienced guys have any specific advice for me? My head is spinning.
I've been married for 20 years before the separation over 3 years ago. Hobbying can never be a substitute for marriage; there is sex, but not intimacy.
The woman I once loved stole my heart, leaving nothing but this empty, horny shell.
Sex sex and more sex unto death
Good luck with that doctoral thesis, sicnarf
-the ugliest eck
I've had so many good experiences with women since I started this, and those were totally absent for me in civvie life.
My experiences with relationships and marriage had been so bad, starting with my parents staying together in an awful, sexless marriage. They are now in old age, still together and hating each other, with my mother, who is a paranoid schizophrenic, believing my dad is involved in some worldwide conspiracy against her and God...
That's just describing it in obscure terms. If I say anymore, people might just think my upbringing was very odd. 
So, from the very beginning, if I got into relationships, or involved with women in any way at all, it was reluctantly and with very low expectations and no commitment on my part. This was fundamentally untenable, because I was a heterosexual male with a high sex drive. Women regarded me as a nuisance and a tease, really a nerd.
I always chose to get myself into fatally flawed romances. My last "relationship" was with a woman with Asperger's syndrome. She could do remarkable things with calculas, differential equations, and logical forms. She knew Chinese, Italian and Hebrew by the time she was 16, but failed English-- her native tongue, BTW. See the movie "Pi," imagine it as a romance, and you get the idea of what that relationship was like. Dating her was like failing calculas.
Counseling and psychiatry alone failed to remedy this. I was at a dead end. It was make a drastic change in my life or have an "accidental" suicide.
Relationships may be possible for me now. However, the thought leaves me in a dilemma. Who would I stop seeing? Who would I give up on ever seeing? I would feel terrible, moreover, at losing the friendships I have with a few providers now.
One thing is for certain: there was no way to get to civvie relationships without a tour in the hobby first. It goes to show that this can be therapeutic.
-- Modified on 10/25/2005 11:04:55 PM
here I thought that a woman deceiving her husband about her crazy-assed psychiatric history was worth noting.
It would sure be nice if we could just take the good parts of people, and sort of immobilize their craziness, eh?
Does anybody else have this thing that (a) they like the variety/novelty, but (b) also like having a steady - because the intimacy of a common history is pretty hot, too?
I suspect that only works if you've got an emotionally smart SO, and for all the hype, I don't see that women are emotionally any more alert than men. In fact, I think a lot of them are pretty narcissistic - whether it's biological or trained, that seems to be pretty common.
that, but to arrive at a sociological place from two different starting points, somehow, that is not accounted for in psychology or sociology.... I am at your place - mentally. Thanks.
I just don't have the energy anymore for a civilian relationship. It's too much work. I can't take one more cold shoulder routine because I was ten minutes late for some twit-laden social event.
For some reason (honestly, I'm not sure how I triggered it, and I'm vet of the Net since it was still just military and universities) Yahoo Personals sends me a weekly email with matches. I allow this to continue because I am a masochist.
Every single woman on there wants some guy to ride in on a white horse and sweep them off their feet for a quick trip to fairy tale land. Not a single realistic expectation amongst them. Soul mates. Karmic balances. Adventure. A perfectly balanced guy! No real human can keep all those plates spinning on top of all those poles.
Cripes, I just want to meet someone who I can hang with and maybe grow old together. Do some stuff. Home improvement project, maybe. Watch some movies.
It's Hollywood's fault, of course.
Me? Bitter? Naaaaah!
I had a point when I started, but it seems to have floated out of my brain. Good night.
a fairly hot body that doesn't make life crazy.
I don't think you can give a person - man or woman - what they want, because then they want more. What has to happen is that you have to represent hope to them - ie, there's something visual or behavioral that makes them think you're hot.
IOW, you have to screw with their head, or they won't be happy. And if you have to think about it, you won't succeed. Has to be instinctive.
come back to you . Your post was good anyway, even with the limp ending.
But then I see a response like this and think, why did I not think of that. What you and jack-in-the-crack have said is really very much the point of my question. The thought of sharing life experiences, building a life together and then growing old together while enjoying the life we create - well, isn't that the promise of the lasting sunset that is supposed to be marriage as opposed to the blazing brilliance of meteor, that while sigularly spectacular, is fleeting?
Is it hollywood's fault - or did we participate in the creation of a myth that has become the quest? Again, thanks to those who take the questions for what they are, serious soul searching.
Okay, here's a weird one...
I'm having a relationship with a provider. No shit. Got together once, it was great, and I got together with her again. Had even MORE fun. Next thing I know, we're talking on the phone a lot. Then I take her out for a nice time on the town-- Like a real date. Another night, we just had drinks and she left afterward... No sex, just a nice time together. Then she brings me over to her place and I spent the night and no money was exchanged. Woke up in the morning and left really confused.
She wants to be with a guy, but she wants somebody who will let her continue in her profession.
What do you make of that?
I LOVE spending time with her. She's really sexy, has a great sense of humor, and is really interesting to talk to. She's smart, funny, and cool.
I mean, she's a really great girl who happens to be a provider.
Yeah, right... Sounds like a dream come true. But it's not. It's kind of got me wigged out.
She says she goes out for an hour and comes back. That's it. No big deal. That's what a provider does, so what's the big deal?
So I'm wondering can I have a relationship with a woman who's a provider? This is really bizarre, guys. It's one thing to see a provider-- it's totally different to be on the other side of the fence.
I'm going with it for now... I'm having a great time with a really cool woman. But a relationship? I'm not sure about that.
I'm looking for a relationship, and I enjoy seeing providers-- but mixing the two has got me really weirded out.
I don't even know what most guys would think about this... "Awesome, fuck her till you die, then let it go", or "This sounds like a total mind-fuck. Get out while you can."
I'm not even sure who I can talk to about this, because it's so off the wall. Honestly, it's not like I'm bragging about this to anyone.
So I put it out there in hopes of some input.
Let me know what you think.
I've been lucky. All my relationships were pretty good and ended well. Nothing has made me bitter or cynical. Of course, they have ALL ended, and now I'm single again. I've never been married.
I enjoy the hobby, but it reminds me just what I'm missing. I miss the closeness and trust you get with an SO. I've met some extraordinary providers, but what they offer is mostly fantasy. I'm a real, genuine kind of guy. I prefer reality. Right now, my reality is that I'm not seeing anyone, so I hobby.
I'll probably stop hobbying when I find someone. If she's cool with it, I might continue. If she's not, I won't do it behind her back. I'm just worried about finding someone who can deal with my history. Eventually, I'll tell her about it. My foray into the hobby is an important part of who I am. It's not something I would keep secret from someone I want to spend the rest of my life with.
Who knows. Maybe someday I'll end up with a provider or ex-provider. I've met a few I'd consider for an LTR. Maybe that's just another fantasy!
I will try not to get too deep here, but it seems like you don't have to make a decision about this?
When you decide you kill off possibility. If you say it must be one way, then all the other ways are lost to you.
I know my advice is limited in value, but pick who you want to be for the world, declare it and then live it. Those people who fit that kind of life will gravitate to you.
There is no right answer here. Just whats right for you. If you dont have it, then the question is; who are you being that hasnt attracted what you want. Are you being honest with yourself, with others? You already know this answer. I dont need to give more examples.
This is why this hobby is pure, if what you want is a series of brief encounters that require very little of you, then for $$$ you can have exactly what you want. everyone wins.
If you suffer in this hobby, even a little bit, then your answer is pretty clear. You want something different. Thats no problem, but be honest with yourself and it will clear the way.
I am staying where I am at at this point, it seems that without saying it, my SO is ok with me doing this as lomg as I dont bother her. We are both comfortable with our lives the way they are and its best for the kids this way..
That has been my experience. I married in my late 20s and it ended a few years ago. By choice, I don't hobby while in a relationship. After we split up I came back to hobbying "with a vengeance." I just love being with many beautiful women with difference personalities.
I have been fortunate enough to meet some (on-line of all places) who is absolutely great. She is everything my ex-wife was not, LOL. She is funny, sweet, supportive and the sex is great!
We have been talking marriage and will get engaged next year. I have retired from the hobby and do admit to missing it a bit.
Just one man's experience. Great topic!!
Many years ago I met an incredible woman. Absolutely head over heels in love with her. She had some emotional problems going back to her teenage years & her parent's divorce. Sometimes they would affect her really hard. Kept telling ter that these things needed attention, that it could interfere in our relationship. Well, I blame this for our breakup.
She was an amazing woman; with her I lost ALL interest in other women. She's been a very hard act to follow, and I blame her, and sometimes curse for making life so hard for me.
Well, that was the case till I discovered the hobby.
Well, I have the resources, and I make the time to enjoy the company of many beautiful women. It's been a real ego boost to get such attention, and the money spent, IMO, is quite worth it. Heck, it beats what I'd spend on therapy if I were to go that route.
Well, the upshoot is that I now praise & bless my ex for "nudging me" in this direction.
Thank you D----, wherever you are!
Prior to the 20th century. Men and women were joined, some by choice, some by arrangement. This joining was more like a joint venture than the white knight approach to romance novels. A man and woman worked to advance their lot in life and the joint venture helped each to survive. So, technology advanced and with that advance came more leasure time. It was no longer necessary to work 18 hours just to provide food and shelter. That time and leisure brought with it more choices. It also brought the concept that man or "the man" was the breadwinner - never mind that pre-20th century, both the man and woman worked equally hard.
This concept of the "breadwinner" led to resentment- a view by some (maybe all) women that men (maybe not all) did not appreciate all that women did.... and then the "War of the Sexes" began in ernest. Where are we now?
Dating - masking games. Marriage - unsatisfied expectations - any wonder why I hobby?
I don't blame anyone... A few nights ago - in a local stripclub - one of the dancers - who did a few lap dances for me, after I said enough, said to me, "Too bad, cause you seem normal and not like the rest of the crowd who comes in here.... You seem nice"
I don't know if that was honest, but it used to be enough that you were a nice guy, honest in your approach to life and willing to work hard. That, in general in our current society, is no longer a validated way to succeed. You have to have a "sincere attitude" even if you do get a hummer from the interns.... You have to present complex ideas in the form of Bullets - even if they are nonsensical... You have to pretend to be wealthy - even if you max 4 credit cards.... you have to make everyone "feel good" about themselves - even if you lie shamelessly....
so, hobby, have a fantasy - at least I know it is not real.
I think the logical answer to this is to just date, keep your money, see a provider as the need arises, and get married at the very end so you'll have someone to change your drawers, lol. At that point, you can't use your doe anyway.
Until I know that I can settle down with one woman and love only her with a passion, I will stay that way. My choice is not a moral one, I prefer variety and realize that I will get bored with one woman after a few months of having sex with her. As life would have it, there is one woman that I have known for several years and admire as a person. We hit it off well. If she showed romantic interest, I would give permanent relationship a try.
My 2 cents:
I just came off a bad marriage and an even worse divorse, so I swore off LTR's and was content to hobby. Then love happened, with a provider yet. I don't know where it will lead, but I am enjoying it immensely. We both continue to see others, so it is not perhaps a "real" relationship yet. But it feels real to me.
The lesson is: Don't preclude possibilities.