A related subject to the below discussion is when someone posts that he saw a girl directly that was touring with an agency. I've noticed a bunch of these in the last month or so as well.
ALL of the agencies monitor these boards and the pornstar yahoo groups. It's NOT in the best interest of a PSE who tours with an agency to have it published that she's seeing clients "on the side" while on tour... unless she's a known independent (like Stevie, for example) who allows the agency to list her without them actually funding her trip, it could cause problems for her and end up costing her money, especially if she's exclusive with one agency.
To be fair, the agency has some legitimate reasons for being pissed off... they're footing at least part of her costs; so if a girl agrees to meet you without going through the agency, she's basically trusting you to protect her from them finding out - If you want her to keep booking directly, I'd suggest back-channeling to let others know about it rather than posting it on an open board.
First, I think it is the duty of the lady to inform the client to keep mum on the issue of booking direct if she thinks it's going to create problems with the agency. How else is he to know?
Second, I don't believe this is as big of an issue with a PS as opposed to regular providers. I say this because the agencies make big bucks with the PS so even if the lady does book direct, the agency is not going to be so quick to sever ties with them.
Third, many of the ladies who book direct or are labelled as independent still have their names listed on many of the big name agency lists. Both E2k and BM have close to 50 different porn stars listed on their sites, but only about 12 are ever listed on the tour schedule. This makes me think the agencies are listing ladies who don't really work with them. Therefore they can't really complain about a provider's tactics when they have issues of their own.
Lastly, I've noticed many PS escort tours coincide directly with their dancing tours, so I don't think the agencies have as many expenses as they would like us to believe.
Just my .02, but then again, what the hell do I know?
-- Modified on 7/5/2004 10:15:15 PM
Some observations about the issues you raised...
I think it should be common sense when you book a lady directly who's being advertised by an agency that she doesn't want it openly known that she booked direct, even if she doesn't tell you. If you sold TV's and you told a shopper that the set cost $500, but if he meets you after work you'll sell him the same brand new model for $300, I think you'd assume he's smart enough to know not to mention it to the store owner!
As to it not being as big an issue with a PS, you're definitely mistaken... Here's why; NYC is the Mecca for PSEs... they make substantially more money there than anywhere else, and if you look on E2K's tour schedule, you'll notice that the PSEs who are exclusive to them get booked into NYC monthly. Non-exclusive PSEs get booked every two or three months, and E2K HAS severed relationships with several pornstars when they found out they were booking directly while on tour. There are a few PSEs who will book independently everywhere BUT NYC, and will ONLY book with E2K when in the Big Apple. Bridgette Monroe, for example.
The issue about the number of ladies listed on the agency sites vs. the actual number who tour has a few explainations... one is that it's simply a matter of once a PSE has toured with them, they rarely remove them from their listing. Sometimes it's that the girl choses not to tour but still prefers to take bookings through the agency in her home city, and with BM and Sophie's, they'll occasionally list and advertise a girl who is touring on her own because they have some clients who prefer to do business with the agency instead of booking directly, often because they've already established themselves with the agency and don't want to give out personal information over and over again to every girl they want to see. The PSE herself allows the agency to list them because any business they get from them is usually bookings they wouldn't have gotten directly. It's a win-win for everyone.
Your last point has merit, but often the girl mixes in escorting-only city tours along with her dance gigs, and I don't know for sure, but it still may be the agency footing the bill for her airfare and hotel where she's appearing. Clubs don't pay for the dancer's travel; they may or many not proivde housing depending on the club.
alot more ladies are going to start disapperaing because there are gentlemen out there that feel ladies that provide do not have the right to privacy...
SL
That is pure bunk. Can you name even three PS who have departed because of privacy concerns.
It's the Internet age. There is no such thing as privacy anymore. Be real!
I would - except that would be denying their privacy. Several I will say that several Contract girls have ceased to be available within days of their becoming available because of the lack of discretion on the part of the agency. It happens all the time... Despite this being the internet age, some people actually know how to keep things hush. I was just having a conversation with a former Heidi client this weekend that was talking about the big 3 agencies - and how they don't do ANY advertising at all... that it's all word of mouth. I'm happy to say that I'll soon aquire access to a couple of Ford Models, play mates and others whom you will never see a photo, an ad, or a review on... because their privacy is paramount.
SL
Sinnamon, I will defer to your comment about ones that have pulled back but other things may be involved.
My major point, which I stand by, is this: in the Internet age anyone who escorts is totally naive to think they will not be "outed".
Ummm... No. There was a former contract girl that has been mostly working in the mainstream world in the last 10 years that made herself available through an agency with the promise that it would be kept underwraps. The agency goofed, it wound up all over the web, and she ceased to be available. This has happened on more than one occassion. When a lady wants to keep her private affairs just that - private - and her privacy is disrespected the most common thing that happens is she simply stops seeing people.
Though you think it's niave,I'm sure you wouldn't think it no more niave than the guy that expects his private & personal information used to verify him would remain private. There are just certain expectations we all have based on our level of participation. Sadly, it's people like you that think these ladies niave that may never truly understand.... I'd worry about any lady that chose to see you... as her privacy probably isn't your concern.
SL
You just don't get it. I was making the general observation that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to keep matters private - especially something like escorting - in the Internet age. I wasn't promoting or encouraging the release of private information - far from it. The reason guys feel somewhat secure that their information will be held private is that it would be professional suicide for a provider to release private information. Moreover, I doubt anyone cares who I am or about my private information but there are tons of guys who want to know who escorts "under the radar". As long as there is this huge appetite for private information about celebrities, porns stars, escorts, etc., which our culture not only condones but, in any way, abets, information will leak out into the public domain. Folks like you and Eddie are fighting a Sisyphean battle if you think your admonishments on this, or other venues, is going to have any impact. It will not. As for your comment about my releasing private information you just don't know what you are talking about.
I hope my post did not convey that I don't think the ladies have a right to privacy... they do, as I value it very much myself. I guess there are those of us who are naive as to the inner workings of the hobby. As far as booking direct, I assumed it wasn't a big deal... without the lady telling me to keep mum, I wouldn't know to do it. Sounds like it should be common sense, but then the word "common" is the key. If one doesn't commonly see a PS, then of course they are naive when it comes to the "sense".
Your analogy is spurious. There is a world of difference between a store employee and the relationship between a PS and E2K, which is a booking agent. I fail to understand why a PS who does not want it made public that she books direct to simply request that the client not publicize the direct booking. I am practically certain that all clients would oblige. My sense is that the PS that books direct wants it known, indirectly through a board posting, that she does so.
It may not have been the best analogy, but it isn't spurious... let me give you a more appropriate and personal example. I work for a company that among other things installs and renovates high-end inground pools. We use a sub-contractor to do tile and plaster work; when we get a request for a quote, he goes to the client's house to estimate the job, let's us know what he wants to do it, then we add our mark-up and give a price quote to the pool owner. The contractor is not an employee of our company. If we were to discover that he was offering to undercut our price by cutting us out of the loop and dealing directly with the client, we would not only cut all ties with him, but also do everything we could to let other's in our industry know how this guy did business. This is a perfect analogy to the Agency/PSE relationship.
Understand something... when we try to book a PSE touring for an agency, we're attempting to cheat that agency out of money, and the PSE who sees fans while on an agency tour IS cheating the agency out of money, pure and simple, just as the pool owner and contractor are cheating my company. We pay overhead to have a storefront, advertise our services, hire and pay people to sell those services, and we expect and deserve to make a profit from our investment and efforts - The contractor makes money off of us without any risk or investment in developing the lead. A PSE agency pays for all or part of the girl's airfare and lodging, they pay to advertise them on Eros and Exotics, and in some cases pay a fee to the girl's agent; they've invested time and money to promote the tour and they expect (and dispite popular opinion, deserve) to make a profit. And I'm NOT shilling or sticking up for the agencies here, just stating a fact that as a businessman I can understand and identify with.
Hey, it's human nature to try to get the lowest price on ANY purchase, whether it's having your pool replastered, buying a big-screen TV or "renting" an hour of sex with a pornstar, and if it means making an end-run around the middleman to get that lower price NOBODY loses any sleep over it, and I include myself in that statement even though I've lost money because someone's done it to me.
But I fail to understand how you can't see that the PSE who's circumventing her agency naturally doesn't want it spread around. The fact is that MOST of them DO ask the guy not to let it publicly known. I've had PSEs actually ask me NOT to post what would have been a great review because they were concerned that the agency would see it and realize that she saw me directly. I make it a point to ask any PSE I see directly if she would like me to back-channel her availability to those I feel can be trusted to keep it quiet. Not all PSEs want that fact even back-channeled - You are 100% mistaken in your assumption that a girl who books direct while touring with an agency WANTS it mentioned on a board.
That being said, occasionally a lady will forget to mention it during a meeting... hell, I once had a girl forget to ask for the money and I didn't realize until I was miles away that I hadn't given it to her( yes, I turned around and went back), so things DO occasionally get forgotten, especially something that IMHO should be intuitive to begin with.
-- Modified on 7/6/2004 5:48:45 PM
common sence is the key,
but once again it's like being a shopfloor worker who can see the light through managememnt, common sense is normally the only thing which is normally lacking in middle management
Eddie,
You are a very smart guy, articulate and a pleasure to read but your analogy is still weak. There clearly is a distinction between a sub-contractor that has been hired for a job and given a client and a PS that uses a booking agency and is independently contacted by the hobbyist. I just don't find such actions by PS to be unethical or even questionable. And your implication that the PS is cheating the Agency is way out of line.
I believe that Agencies such as E2K, just like major corporations that sell specialty products at inflated prices, don't really mind a small or moderate of independent activity at reduced prices. It makes the markets run smoother and keeps all parties somewhat satisfied. If you want may rationale in detail send me a PM and I will explain.
No, there really isn't a big distinction between the two. Both the plasterer and the PSE are independent contractors who receives a 1099 form. In the case of the plasterer, he receives the 1099 from my company; in essence he is working for us for that particular job. In the case of the PSE, it's E2K who provides the PSE with it; she is working for the agency while she's on tour. The pool owner and hobbyist are clients of the companies, not the independent contractors.
I think you have a misconception of what an agency does. It is NOT a booking agent for the girl as you keep referring to it as. A booking agent is someone who works FOR the girl and is paid BY HER for handling appointments and whatever other services they've agreed on. The booking agent may place ads on Eros, et. al., but the PSE herself pays for the ads. Generally, other than the monthly phone bill, a booking agent has little or no out-of-pocket costs involved... their investment is primarily time, for which they're compensated by the fee they receive from the PSE, whether it's a salary, a flat-rate or a percentage of her booking fees.
An agency, on the other hand, incurs costs and takes risks when they sponsor a tour and through their efforts generates interest in the girl by making people aware of where she will be appearing. They also have an established client base who will see a girl strictly on the agency's recommendation without necessarily being familiar with who she is.
Let's analyze what it costs to sponsor a PSE tour to a city: Ads on Eros and Exotics are about $150 a piece for each city, and the agencies usually advertise on several other less well known provider listing sites as well, so we'll say their advertising costs are at least $400 to bring a girl to a particular city. Airfare from LA, where most of the PSEs reside let's call $600... sometimes it cheaper, sometimes more expensive, but let's use that as an average. Hotels - let's assume a $150/night average which I think is reasonable, so a three-night stay is $450. Add airport and hotel taxes, and the cost to bring a pse into a city is about $1500.
The gross profit an agency makes on a one hour appointment for a $1500/hr PSE ranges from about $350 to $600. But from that you have to factor in the cost of security checks and verifications; lets be conservative and say that's only about $20. The phone girls who make the appointments usually get a commission for each booking, about $50 to $80 each, plus their hourly rate, which I have no clue what that is so let's not bother to include that. Also, in some cases the PSE's agent was the person who brought her to the agency, so he gets a cut as well, maybe 10 to 15 percent, approx. $90 to $135, but for the sake of simplicity let's ignore that as well as the daily overhead of running the agency; phone bills, electric, insurance, etc. So the agency's "raw" net profit of a $1500/hr PSE without an agent is somewhere between $250 and $500, not including the stuff we decided to ignore.
And remember, this is for a $1500/hr PSE. A $1200/hr girl lowers that profit somewhat.
So at a $1500 cost to bring a girl into a city, the agency needs between 3 to 6 bookings just to break even on their base costs. If the girl has an agent taking a cut, those numbers rise considerably.
Three to five appointment may not seem like a lot, but believe me, I've heard MANY times from PSEs that they spent three or four days in a city without seeing ONE client! It happens more than you may think. As I said in a previous post, NYC is the Mecca for pornstar escorts, but that's truly the exception, not the rule. And the reason a lot of the PSEs stay faithful to the agency, particularly E2K who dominates the NYC PSE market, is specifically for the opportunity to come to NY... Believe me when I tell you that a popular girl can make WELL over $20,000 a week in the Big Apple, and a very popular girl over $30,000.
But in the other cities, who can blame a girl for taking a direct booking?? After all, she incurs costs as well. Taxis to and from the airport, meals (and since they're constantly "on call", it's usually expensive room service meals), etc. So if they're not getting bookings from the agency, they're losing money too. But they certainly don't want it known that they're booking direct because they don't want to jeapordize getting that gold mine NYC tour. And that's EXACTLY why an agency will sever ties to a PSE they discover is seeing guys on the side while touring for them. It's the only thing they can hold over the pornstar to discourage them from doing it. And that's also why girls who are loyal and exclusive with E2k get booked into NY more often than those who work with other agencies. NYC is the "carrot" they hold in front of the PSE to remain faithful.
Understand that many of these girls aren't organized enough and often don't have the money to schedule and pay for their own independent tours, so either they'd never work outside their home cities or they just wouldn't escort, so for these PSEs, independence isn't an option... they NEED the agencies. Also understand that if a girl were to OPENLY see guys while touring with an agency, that agency not only loses money, but the agency's rate becomes devalued... why would a guy pay $1500 when he knows he can see her for $1000?? So on each subsequent tour the agency gets less and less calls for the girl, and the girl gets more and more guys contacting her to book direct. Eventually it becomes a losing proposition for the agency to sponsor that girl's trips.
These agency owners aren't stupid. They all know only too well that this is going on, but depending on how much money the lady generates for the agency I'm sure they have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy... they'll turn a blind eye to a certain amount of it - it's only when it becomes public knowledge that they're forced to do something about it.
So that's why it's in EVERYBODY'S best interest NOT to let the cat out of the bag. Obviously so for the girl, so the agency will continue sponsoring her tours; for the agency, since they'll make more money; for the hobbyist who made the effort to track her info down and contact her directly, since he saves money; and even for the hobbyist who pays "retail" and books her for an hour or two through the agency, because without the agency sponsorship, these guys wouldn't get the chance to meet a lot of these girls without living in or traveling to LA or Vegas. Sometimes it's better to pay a premium than to not get the chance to meet the girl of your dreams at all.
Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I'm the same as everyone else... if I can sidestep the agency and save money, of course I'm going to do it. Who wouldn't? But I don't delude myself into believing that I'm not screwing the agency out of their due; and if we're honest we'll all admit that, at least to ourselves. So that's why I say it should be intuitive NOT to kill the goose that laid the golden egg by posting about it openly on a public forum.
-- Modified on 7/7/2004 10:37:30 PM