By womans right to choose you mean MURDER right???????????
Joining a church is not meant to be a random occurrence. A religion has a set of doctrines and rituals that go along with that church. Anyone that chooses to join the Catholic church should already know that religion's stance on certain topics - abortion being one of them.
Being Catholic doesn't mean you get to "pick and choose" which doctrines you will follow and which you won't. If there are doctrines in the Catholic church in which you don't believe, you should choose a different religion, one with different values and doctrines.
I would expect any true Catholic to absolutely do whatever they could to stop abortion. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but they're Catholic - that's what they're supposed to do. So in that respect I EXPECT true Catholics to try to get into my bedroom. I don't LIKE it, but I understand it. You can't call yourself Catholic, but disagree with everything the Catholic church believes in. If you do, then WHY do you want to be Catholic? Just for the rituals, but not for the beliefs?
I do not understand politicians who profess to be Catholic, but support legislation that directly goes against doctrines of the Catholic church. I would assume a Catholic politician should be staunchly pro-life, and if he is not, then he does risk the wrath of his church.
btw, I am not Catholic, I dislike Notre Dame football, and am pro-choice. But I know a LOT of Catholics in my personal life.
You're right about a person being responsible to abide by the doctrines of his or her church. However, a politician is elected by a constituency, and s/he is responsible to represent them, not the church that that politician is a member of. As long as the member does not practice something against the church's doctrine, the church should not have any say as to his or her voting record, or what that politician supports, legislatively. That is where the separation between church and state should come in. IMHO
Abiding by the doctrines of their church means that if they are a woman they shouldn't get an abortion, and if they're a male they should discourage their signigicant other from getting one. That doesn't mean that the can't disagree with the doctrine and support pro-choice.
Being a catholic doesn't mean not being able to think for one's self.
You said: "Being a catholic doesn't mean not being able to think for one's self." Yes, many Catholics do think for themselves, but they don't tell tell their priests or bishops. It's sort of like "Don't ask, don't tell," with gays in the military. No matter what you think, the Catholic church has their doctrines, which they enforce, though at times a bit inconsistently, and their members have a choice to live by them, or not. If they don't choose to live by them, they have the choice of leaving the church, or hiding their infractions.
What doctrine of the Catholic church has Kennedy broken? Did he preform an abortion? Did he get a girl pregnant and force her to abort the fetus?? He can disagree vocally with the doctrines of the church, but as long as he FOLLOWS the doctrines, he has every right to participate in rituals and sacraments of his church.
If he broke the doctrines, than the cardinal could ex-communicate him and kick him out of the church. Since the cardinal didn't do that, he appanrently has no basis to throw him out of the church, and so has no true authority to prevent Kennedy from taking communion.
That's where the Catholic church has crossed over the line between church and state.
-- Modified on 11/25/2009 3:43:40 PM
Most of us don't choose our religion, we're born into it. I was raised as a catholic and my mother was devout. She siad her roseary every day, went to church ever week, and led her life according to the catholic tenents.
Her attitude about abortion? She was opposed to it, but she felt that eveyone had the right to choose for themselves. She used to say "they'll answer for their actions one day when they meet God".
One can follow the teachings of the catholic church without believing every single thing they preach. Religion is suppose to uplift us and give up purpose, not restrict our ability to think. Kennedy supports abortion. As far as I know, he hasn't personally preformed any himself, and to the best of my knowledge never forced anyone to have one. He hasn't broken any of the "laws" of the catholic church... If he had, then the Cardinal could ex-communicate him.
The church can't regulate thought. He has as much right to partake in the holy sacrament as any other catholic.
H5 and NFP are both judgmental hypocrites. By the very fact, they participate on this site, and/or within this hobby, their "sinning" against the same doctrine/faith which they profess to support.
By calling a woman's right to choose, without the guidance/interference of a man, murder, is their right, however wrong I might find it. Fine, stand out there and be belligerent, your rights to do so, are guaranteed by the same document, which allows for a woman the right to choose, without the governments interference.
We're talking legal rights, vs. church doctrine. If you so want to live in a country which allows for the doctrines of faith control the masses, then either move to KSA (Saudi) or Iran, or define the Country of your choosing. In the US their is a difference between having your faith, which is guarenteed, and imposing your faith/beliefs on others.
Be sure and don't jerkoff, or wear a condom either fellas. Them boys should be set free.
Thankful for a Constitution and the Wisdom of our forefathers.
Abortion arguements usually remind me of this saying: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
...penalty just as much as it does against abortion yet Catholic politicians are not denied Communion if they vote for war or do not stop imposition of the death penalty.
Likewise, Howard5 and NefariousPastor and the others of your ilk, what say you to war and the death penalty? Is your outrage selective, or are you consistent in your beliefs?
to make up rules as they go.
So a Catholic Bishop shouldn’t take a stance on an issue of high moral value to himself and then take an action based on the stance, but it’s OK for this lady to take her stance and take her action? Patrick Kennedy asked to join this Catholic Church and the Church gets to make the rules. I think it’s fair to point out that maybe this Bishop might not be applying their rules equally or even handedly, but then again THEY get to make THEIR rules. The separation of church and state has nothing to do with this situation. The first amendment and the subsequent Supreme Court rulings regarding separation of church and state restricts the government’s role regarding religion, not vice versa. There are restrictions placed upon Churches regarding government but they stem from tax exemptions granted to churches and other non-profits. With those tax exemptions come certain requirements and responsibilities to not use tax exempt capital to politic (but there seems to be very lax enforcement on this). Nonetheless, the Church denying Kennedy participation in a Church activity (they’d call it a sacrament) has nothing whatsoever to do with any government law or regulation. It’s their right to do so, just as it’s this lady’s right to go somewhere else.
About abortion itself. . .
When you imply that a child would be better off dead than grow up in poverty, you are applying your own moral standards to the situation. Why shouldn’t the Church or other people be allowed to apply their own moral standards? If they think that a life of possible poverty far outweighs death for any innocent then that should be their right as it is yours to feel the opposite. You and about one-half the country believe women deserve the right to choose. Roughly the other half, believe that the unborn child ought to have an advocate that is at least as strong as the woman’s. Who speaks for this unborn child. Now of course that brings us back to morals. Some say the unborn is not a human yet and has no rights. To us in the other half that seems a tad bit selfish on the part of the woman. We have a different morality. So just when does that unborn child become a human?
...under GW Bush. He sicced the IRS on All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena. See link...
So Bush ordered the IRS to do this, yet AG Holder made the decision to hold the NY show trial all by himself. Of course the fact that this preacher indeed DID politic for Kerry from the pulpit, even though he tried to hide the fact matters just a little bit here. And yes, investigations and prosecutions such as this have been too lax. I actually diagree with the law, but the law's that law right?
Glad to see you read my post, but that’s all you got from it?
Doctrines enslaves the mind.
Ritualism promotes and strengthens slavery of the mind.
Three Pillars of Human Civilization:
1. Philosophy is thinking of things in the World and Universe we live in.
2. Religion is living with things in the World and Universe we live in.
3. Science is working with things in the World and Universe we live in.
Everything else is meaningless.
It is in fact a political issue enshrouded in religious dogma. The fundamental questions; When should a fetus be granted legal status? And, Should women be the sole arbiters of their own reproductive processes?, Are not resolved. As long as religion plays a large part in public policy, these questions will not be resolved.
Otherwise he'd have had more trouble solving his political enemy troubles. It can get so emotional killing so many people.
I disagree with Charlie a lot more often than I agree with him, but commie or not, he nailed it this time. Abortion, like religion is a matter of taking choices away from individuals and having either government or the church make choices that are best left to individuals.
That argument only works if one’s moral value system allows one to deny that it's the taking of a life, which in any other form is not allowed to be a personal choice by society (i.e. murder is not a personal choice).
Yes, our present society has presently determined abortion is legal, but people are still free to set their own moral standards and they are still free to attempt to convince others of their errors. Declaring these people to be wrong doesn’t make it so nor does it make them disappear.
Ah, how I loved the Thornbirds.
I'm a hopeless romantic.
But maybe I should head back to those Episcopalians.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kate of Boston
"There is a legend about a bird which sings just once in its life, more sweetly than any other creature on the face of the earth. From the moment it leaves the nest it searches for a thorn tree, and does not rest until it has found one. Then, singing among the savage branches, it impales itself upon the longest, sharpest spine. And, dying, it rises above its own agony to outcarol the lark and the nightingale. One superlative song, existence the price. But the whole world stills to listen, and God in His heaven smiles. For the best is only bought at the cost of great pain… Or so says the legend."
— Colleen McCullough (The Thorn Birds)
If they're in my bedroom, they're sitting in a corner jacking off over what they wish they were man enough to do.
These Catholic bastards are pretty hypocritical...and murderous.
First, the hypocricy. It is also the stance of the Catholic Church to be opposed to the death penalty. And yet, how many politicians are they refusing communion based upon their support for the death penalty?
Now for the murderous part. The Catholic Church has done everything in it's power to deny people in third world countries contraceptives, including condoms. This is part of the reason why there's a massive AIDS epidemic in Africa and southern Asia.
We should be encouraging more contraception, and yes, even more abortion. Yes I said it. We should ENCOURAGE abortion.
The fact of the matter is that if there were fewer people on this planet there would be more resources for everyone. There would be less poverty as a result.
This has even happened in the past. The Bubonic Plague wiped out between 30%-50% of Europe. The result was that with fewer people labor prices skyrocketed. People were able to enjoy more leisure time as they didn't have to work all the time. That led directly to the Renaissance, and marked the first time in Western history that a middle class existed.
For all of the history of man there were less than 1 billion human beings on this planet, that was until the industrial revolution. When Kennedy was President there was only a third of the population on the whole planet that we have today. If the population of our species continues to grow, all of us will be forced into poverty, and many of us will starve to death. That's already happening with 1 out of every 8 human beings on this planet.
The time has come to understand consequences people. Having an abortion, or avoiding reproduction entirely is about the most pro-life thing you can do.
You blame them for the aids epidemic?
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard coming out of your little mouth.
They need to stop raping each other, and stop fucking the wildlife. They need to take responsibility for themselves.
The Catholic Church may be hypocritical, but to call them murderers makes you look like a total fool.
BTW, I am not Catholic. I am simply calling you out for being STUPID.
You need to go back to the chocolate factory and dump your pea brain into a hot vat.
No, they are not murderers for preaching abstinence in Africa. And, no, Willy did not blame them for the aids epidemic. He said: "This is part of the reason why there's a massive AIDS epidemic in Africa and southern Asia." Notice the "part of the reason."
Since it's a fact that condoms can reduce the odds of a person contracting aids from sexual intercourse, and aids can kill you, the degree that the Catholic church prevented or became an obstacle to a person using a condom during sex, the church is culpable in their deaths.
And, who is this "they," as in "They need to stop raping each other, and stop fucking the wildlife." So, all those who have died of aids are guilty of such. Or, just Africans or Asians. Sounds racist to me.
Buy the way, many of those who contracted aids and died were children, and faithful spouse of unfaithful spouses.
Good thing you are hiding behind and alias so as not to reveal to us how stupid you are.
-- Modified on 11/25/2009 4:36:51 PM
"Now for the murderous part. The Catholic Church has done everything in it's power to deny people in third world countries contraceptives, including condoms. This is part of the reason why there's a massive AIDS epidemic in Africa and southern Asia."
Why don't you read it bathmatt.
The murderous part, dummy.
The church does not stop the flow of condoms to Africa. How many have you sent there? If you say none, then are you not guilty in your feeble little mind?
Guess where the highest sexual assault rates are in the world. You can find hundreds of articles on the subject. All you have to do is look.
I don't give a fuck if you call me a racist. Just look at the facts about rapes and birth rates in those African countries.
Board that is worth listening to, and the only one worth fucking too.
I don't agree with everything she says, but she is far from stupid.
No, I am not advocating abstinence on TER, you fool.
I pointed out that you accused the Catholic church of being murderers for preaching abstinence in Africa. That was a moronic statement.
Why shouldn't they attempt to help and EDUCATE them. They help to feed them, don't they? Education is a small price to pay when you may starve to death without charity.
Lets attempt to comprehend before we answer threads, dummy.
As far as your links are concerned, WTF does that have to do with my comment to you? Nothing.
Most of the people in Africa can't read let alone think like kids in the USA.
Please visit that hot vat now.
All organized religion is about one thing and one thing only,...MONEY!! They are not about gaining enlightenment or fufillment. They are about enslaving the masses to do their bidding, which is the collecion of wealth. Personally, they should get rid of all that wealth and give it to the poor like I had originally asked.
You don't need a church, temple, mosque or any type of building or structure to worship me or to pray to me. I prefer that you do so from your heart instead.
