Tho, a poll conducted at net roots showed only 20% of progressives disapproved of BHO.
Still, like yourself ( despite the crazed protestations of Mr n ), I'm quite disappointed in BHO myself.
So, bro,' what's the alternative in '12 ? : voting for a 3rd party progressive candidate or sitting the election out ?
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 10:55:56 AM
There should be a primary challenge to Obama. If there's not, then I don't plan on voting.
I hope you do stay at home in 2012.
If no one represents my interests, then why would I vote? Why would you vote, GaG? Our election system is like going to a restaurant, picking your waiter, and having no say on what you want from the menu.
In your case because you are looking for someone left of Hugo, and in my case because it seems that almost all fiscal conservatives are religious whack jobs and all social liberal are borderline socialists who believe that everybody deserves a neverending handout payed for by the likes of people like me.
I hope you are telling the truth and more disenchanted ultra libs like you just "opt out".
The only way I see myself sitting out the election is if appears that the Dems retake Congress and the GOP nominates someone as unpalatably as Palin or Bachman. In that case, I can't see myself voting either. I will confess that if the GOP appears to have at least a partial hold on Congress and the GOP nominates a "fringe religious whacko" like Palin, I could very well see myself voting for Obama despite my feelings about the man.
Unless a true leader in the mold of a Ronald Reagan comes along, the best I can hope for is gridlock. I don't give a fuck what you, Pri, or the rest of the libs have to say, Reagan was our last true leader. Even though he was too socially conservative for my taste, he pulled this country back from the brink, and fuck all of you who disagree. You are waay too young to remember how bad off this country was when Carter handed the reins of power to Reagan.
"You are waay too young to remember how bad off this country was when Carter handed the reins of power to Reagan." Actually, no. I was around, young feller, and was disgusted with Carter, too. And, yes, Reagan did a few good things -- especially his opening to Gorbachev. But we weren't close to any brink. And he also treated us to Iran/Contra as he snoozed away. And to those who give him credit for ending the Cold War, I say, "Bullshit!"
The Cold War ended under Bush, Sr.'s, term and it ended because of:
1) a policy of containment started under Truman and continued under every President after him of both parties.
2) The inherent failure of Communism as an economic and political system. The communist economy could not compete with capitalism and sustain its huge military. Their Afghan blunder was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Reagan was well-meaning and genial fellow, but a great President? Nope!
surely you will agree the economy was much worse when Reagan took over than this so called "great recession" we find ourselves in now.
I doubt that we will be able to say the same in 2016, at least right now, in spite of the lackluster growth and high unemployment, we don't have a prime rate approaching 20% nor do we have double digit inflation. We very well may have that in the future, but although Obama inherited a very bad economy he also had many more bullets in his arsenal than did Reagan.
I'm not at all sure you're right re the relative weakness of the economy in 1980. Yes, it was a mess, with bad stagflation, but I don't think there was anywhere near the level of unemployment, general distress to the financial system, a housing market in the tank, etc. Virtually everyone calls this the worst economy since the Great Depression. If that's true, you're off by 50 years. The fact that we have low inflation is part of the problem. In fact, for a while there we had deflation. As for Reagan's "arsenal," I'm not sure he had fewer tools at his disposal then. Things aren't that different. Paul Volker was the head of the Fed and he's still around advising Obama, for example. Anyway, I'm too lazy to research the economic comparisons, but these are my general impressions.
The economy in the early 80's was pretty horrible. I'd say the Great Recession is a pretty close comparison. You could argue that each are worse, depending on how you look at it.
In the 80's, we had 3 years of double digit unemployment, and unemployment remained quite high for the better part of the decade. Unemployment didn't really come down until the very end of Reagan's presidency.
Also, interest rates were quite high. It was the medicine needed to cure stagflation. A lot of factories closed in the 80's, imports rose dramatically, there was a housing bubble that popped, all together, not very good.
But compared to today, unemployment is about as bad. We had double digit unemployment rates for a shorter amount of time, but then again, we're not counting as many people in the BLS stats then we used to.
The housing bubble of the 80's was nothing compared to the housing bubble we just went through. Offshoring has gutted the manufacturing base of this country. Some 53,000 factories have closed since the passage of NAFTA, and the United States barely has a manufacturing base left. Interest rates are low, but long term, that ain't exactly a good thing.
I think GaG just thinks the 80's were worse because he probably made less money back then, being younger and all. I'd say we're worse off today by a very long shot.
inicky thanks Willy for Willy's extensive research. inicky thinks Gambler will be highly impressed with it as well and will agree with Willy. Willy should be very proud of Willy. inicky is sure Gambler will tell Willy how impressed he is with Willy. Willy good. heh!
...but don't say I didn't ever do you any favors, Nicky, lol. GaG wouldn't be impressed with any of this. I've posted the graphs that prove this more times than PW can count.
You are a fine American.
The left (ex. Willy) hates BHO because he compromises with the right.
The right (fill in the blank ______) hates BHO because they think he's a socialist.
Ergo: he must be doing something right.
(Note: before you respond to this post, please read the headline again.)
...then why is the country falling apart? Things are not getting better. They're getting worse.
Well, for the rabid Progressives on the Left and hard core conservatives on the Right, it's not oversimplified at all. The extreme right does think BHO is a socialist, and the Progressives want their entire platform implemented. If they don't get one issue implemented, they throw a tantrum. This is 40% of the electorate. Inicky, are you in this 40%?
You did say in an earlier post that any candidate you vote for MUST be pro-choice, irrespective of their stance on all the other issues.
To be honest, Obama hasn't caught too many breaks, at least as it applies to the economy, which Inicky, TRUMPS (not Donald) all other issues, including abortion, and a whole host of feel good social issues that seems to be discussed on this board ad nauseum.
Can't blame him for the Japan Earthquake and the supply chain disruptions to the economy
Can't blame him for the European debt crisis.
Can't blame him for the high energy prices. He has no control over commodity pricing.
Can't blame him for housing, even though he tried to fix it by throwing a shit load of money at it with that stupid housing credit.
Get ready for this Inicky, but I really can't blame him totally for the 9% plus unemployment. The economy is going through significant structural changes, and the result will be chronic unemployment for the uneducated and unskilled, which makes up the majority of the unemployed. Did you know there are over 800K jobs available today in the U.S. where there is a skills mis-match. Obama can't fix it today or tomorrow, but he can at least address it and give suggestions on how to potentially fix it downstream.
There are things Obama can do that can potentially spur the economy a bit, thereby helping his re-election, but I don't think that 20% mentioned above will allow that to happen.
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 3:38:47 PM
But I am not among any group that will "throw a tantrum" if anyone's entire program is not adopted. As for my pro-choice stance, it's clear you simply did not read my clarifications on that issue. I won't repeat them here. Mostly, I agree with what you're saying.
especially when it comes to the economy and MONEY. Glad you agree with what I said, especially coming to the defense of Obama. Now if I told you that Obama needs to give a tax break/holiday for the $2T sitting offshore, would you agree? Now if I told you that Obama needs to pare back the NLRB rhetoric, EPA and Dodd-Frank regs to spur the economy, would you agree? Gotta meet me halfway.
I don't believe you had a clarification. You were pretty specific. I think you said, "I would never ever vote for a pro-lifer. Also something about there is no other single issue. But I'll let it go.
But at least our debate is civil as compared to Priapus and PW, as well as a number of posters on this board. In the old days, pre Internet, you would take that shit outside. How much money will it take to make that happen? I'm ready to donate.
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 4:59:24 PM
& I agree the "feud" between PW & I is dumb.
Now, if some of the "paranoid wack jobs" could be removed, this board could be quite an enlightening place.
In re to your talks about the economy, if "structural changes" are as profound as you say, economy will take long time to heal. Keep in
mind that the 30's depression lasted 12 years. If the same applies to current "great recession", the economy will get back to normal by 2020.
& SC, generally speaking of late, your posts have been consistently thoughtful. Good job.
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 5:33:54 PM
for your first and last sentences.
I'm glad you are following my advice, but let's try to keep it "opposite" the whole way thru...
You're the action. Not unless you want to donate to your own purse. And considering there are no fights scheduled anytime soon at Mandalay or the MGM Garden Arena, you and PW will have to do. Nothing like a fight weekend in Vegas.
Speaking of "wack jobs", seems to be more than usual these days. And I do have to admit you were right about Madison. I called your ass out after her 1st post to give her some slack. You actually stepped up to the plate and apologized. Sorry about the wasted apology. She turned into one useless pathetic mentally challenged 2 bit whore, which I understand is even worse than a "fydollaho". Just another urban word I had to look up courtesy of TER board member (lol).
you can understand how I just got fed up w/ the persistent anti-semitism from board wackjobs ( Madison, mrnotrouble, Xiao ) My religious beliefs are close to Ini's ( Secular/atheist Jew ) & I don't harbor any PC "sensitivities",
but the constant "Jew baiting" was getting on my fucking nerves.
I don't know what is worse. The blatant anti-semitism you see on the Internet, and there is a ton, or the subtle shit you see in the real world. I kid with my wife, and my 2 kids, who by default are Jewish, but I don't put up with that shit in the real world when I see it or hear it. I just ignore the Xiao's on this board and on the Internet, but I wouldn't in person.
I grew up on the westside of LA. You seem to know the neighborhood pretty well, maybe even the history. I've been fortunate to get a tutorial on the history of the city, specifically as it relates to the level of anti-semitism past and present. It would make your skin crawl.
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 6:50:41 PM
only 2 instances of anti-semitism that I personally encountered : one at a Jack La lane gym in Santa Monica ( long closed ) in the late 70's; & at a Studio bar near MGM on Washington called "The Backstage" ( a real toilet ); I hurled their shit back, believe me.
Otherwise, W.L.A is a great place to live ( excluding the fucking traffic, of course ) .
but I was raised in Rancho Park. I played golf and caddied for money as a kid at the Rancho Park Golf Course. There was 2 ways to get to the park on Motor. One go up Pico, or two go through Cheviot Hills.
Apple Pan, Junior's Deli on Westwood, Rebozo's Mexican Restaurant, if you could call that rat infested joint on Pico and Patricia.
Still in SoCal, but left the area long ago. You're right, traffic sucks 24/7, but I still find time to hit up Apple Pan.
I lived halfway between Fox & MGM. Used to take my dog for Daily 3 mile walks past Rancho every day. Fuck----my brother WORKED at Rancho park also---doling out sports equip.
As for eateries, used to like the many Hamburger Hamlets in the area ( all of them closed now )
Titos Tacos, Johnny's Pastrami, Fratellos Italian
( long closed ) Twin Drgon Chinese, Nate & Al's Deli, Dem Bones Ribs ( long closed ), Kelbos ( long closed--place made a fucking great rum Zombie ) Of course, let's not forget Tommy's classic hamburgers on Lincoln & Pico. & NO fucking buffet jokes-----LOL !
As for bars, DB Coopers on Motor ( a toilet, but not as bad as Backstage ) & close to it, Irish Times ( formerly a German bar ). Used to hit Brennan's in the Marina a bit.
The Apple pan makes a KILLER banana cream pie.
If you tell me you went to Hamilton High, I'll have a fucking coronary-------LMAO !
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 7:54:46 PM
get a room, for chrissakes! You're turning this into a West L.A. fast food board! LOL!
Actually, pri, I think it's fucking adorable.
and if your next choice was Uni High, the answer is also no. I went to parochial school. This is not the forum we want to use to disclose this kind of info. We will have to do over drinks, and preferably in your neck of the woods.
Hamlet on Sepulveda and National, and the one in Westwood. Yes to Fratellos, yes to that Hawaiian monstrosity called Kelbos on Pico.
Bars, and I'm going add discos, just because of my age. Oar House in Venice, the Basement, San Francisco saloon on Pico, Captains Wharf in the Marina. I'm embarrassed to say Big Daddy's in the Marina. Yes to Brennan's, and every pub in S.M.,Venice.
You better add an 81mg aspirin to your vodka to avoid a coronary. You do know we could probably take the 6 degrees of separation and knock it down to 1 or 2.
I'll try contact your thru an intermediary------
Oar house with foos balls----The Basement was 1st bar I went to when I hit drinking age----on Mindanao or one of those fucking streets, near the Chart House. Big Daddy's was THE Disco in the 70's-----always hated that fucking place.SF Saloon had great Long Island ice teas,if memory serves me correctly.
Shit---maybe I know you-----LOL !
I'll get together with you in Vegas anytime of your choosing-----drag Gag along----tho he's pissed at me this moment-----LOL !
I'll send you an email in a few minutes
-- Modified on 6/22/2011 8:47:20 PM
and where would you ever get the idea I was pissed at you? lol
Of course I was on a plane until just a few minutes ago, but that's beside the point.
-- Modified on 6/23/2011 10:30:03 AM
The only "donation" I plan to make is to a provider.
Shit! I didn't realize there was gonna be a quid pro quo. As for the tax holiday, I believe we've had one of those and would like to know how well it worked before supporting another. I'm generally in favor of anything that will boost revenues and pare the deficit.
As for my clarifications re pro life, I added quite a bit to what you quote above but I'm not going to force you to go back and read it. What I said basically was, I've never actually had to follow that rule because most pro-lifers believe in so many other things I reject I'd never end up having to put up or shut up. Given the state of the Republican party today I think it will be a long time before I'll have to make any such Hobson's Choice.
As for you and I being civil, it's not so hard when you actually agree with someone a good part of the time. It also helps when someone disagrees with you respectfully, which you and I also do.
such as "American Resource & Recovery Act" (ARRA), cash for clunkers, etc. have been abysmal failures. How does throwing more money after bad money considered good economics? Obama has done nothing but create inflation and with high unemployment figures he has produced stagflation.
I have detested Obama's whole alternative energy blah blah programs. The United States is sitting on the Saudi Arabia of coal and this country EPA's clean air laws are preventing the construction of power plants. These power plants have funding, provate funding and are ready to be built creating jobs. Instead Obama's is stuck on ethanol, developing bio-diesel, solar power, turning soybeans into oil, etc. These are all "could be", "potential" profitable dreams. Billions have been spent on research with little return on the investment.
How much time and money has been spent on the health care bill? How does removing 18 percent of GDP and handing it over to the government, good economics?
Three years ago if Obama and the US Democratic Congress would not have voted for ARRA and not provided the States such as California with all the stimulus money, these state governments would have taken the hard medicine and layed off employees and cut stupid programs. I could on but it's late.
In summary, Obama had a crisis, an economic crisis and he did not take advantage of it. Great Presidents are always good in taking advantage of a crisis and Obama is not.
There is no real inflation right now, unless you choose not to believe the way the gov't. creates those numbers -- and I know some don't. Also, how can you say states have not taken the hard medicine and laid off employees? There have been thousands of layoffs and there will be many more.
"There is no inflation right now"
How can you say there is no inflation right now unless you choose to believe the liars?
http://www.nolanchart.com/article8754_Government_Lies_the_Rate_of_Inflation_index_Changed_to_Misinform_the_People.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/17/versace-inflation-signs-are-rising/
http://blogglot.blogspot.com/2011/06/us-government-lying-about-inflation-and.html
http://www.resourceinvestor.com/News/2011/2/Pages/Global-Inflation-Rising-and-Other-ProGold-Developments.aspx
http://www.chroniclewatch.com/2011/03/02/u-s-government-lying-about-inflation-and-jobs-market/
http://alpha411.blogspot.com/2007/04/our-government-is-lying-about-inflation.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/douglas/douglas17.html
Hyperinflation is cause by lack of faith in a currency, inflation is cause by demand. Our prises are sky-rocketing because the dollar is losing faith with its international investors. The more they lose faith the more they sink their investments in consumables/commodities, so the prices of all the things we need goes up ONLY in some sections of our markets..
Hyper-inflation is what happened in zimbabwe, and is a VERY bad thing. Inflation means the economy is doing great, and their is a demand for the currency.
Inflation= supply/demand
Hyper-inflation means the economy is collapsing because their is NO FAITH in the currency the economy is based off
Consumer Price Index from the United States Government, US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor and Statistics. The CPI increased by an average of 3.6 percent. Remember that is an average -however where it really hurts consumers are food and fuel prices,and those indices have increased by 4.4 percent and over 26 percent respectively in the past year. And yes I do blame Obama.
As I have stated in a previous post, Obama is spending too much time and money on alternative fuel projects instead of shovel ready commercially funded coal powered firing power plants. These alternative fuels such as ethanol from corn, biodiesel from soybeans actually have worked to increase the price of farmland and directly food commodity products. It is one reason, I am investing in agriculture commodities. Sugar has increased by 70 percent. Where does most sugar come from, you guess it, corn. Read the labels on your corn pops, the sugar i.e. dextrose, syrup is a derivative from corn. Everybody is getting high on sugar, the Chinese want it because as a nation becomes wealthier, the people acquire a sweet tooth. Instead of allowing the market to work it's magic, Obama wants to put sugar i.e. ethanol into your gas tank and thus messing up the supply and demand curves with his misconceived fiscal policies.
As far as state layoffs it has not happen yet. The sooner the better, but it will happen. However you missed my point, we should have began shedding the ranks of government middle management years ago. "Jerseyflyer" has posted wonderful articles of government mismanagement in New Jersey. I guarantee if we did take out inefficiencies you see unemployment figures begin to go down. There would have been pain in the beginning but we would have started an real economic recovery. Another economic failure, Obama has failed to put the Wall Street crooks in jail. The small investor such as I, and there are many of us simply do not trust the stock market. Until the small investor begins investing I am being very cautious.
Now some things beyond the control of OBama, I will say this, the aging baby boomer. This demographic has influenced socio-economic supply and demand curves since the 1950's. As people age, people save more.
P.S> I could not attach he news release from the BLS. Sorry.
Actually, I agree with a lot of what you say. Thanks.