Whassa matter ?-------Didn't think I was gonna do it ? Yours truly has come to the conclusion
that the mess in the country ( particularly HC reform ) has been perpetrated by a well meaning,
but, inexperienced, out-of touch "community organizer who has morphed into a "useful idiot"
( Latter term was used against Ronald Reagan ).
All this goes to show is that ALL current POTUS candidates are a fucking joke------which is bad news for the U.S.-------
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 8:13:34 AM
Interesting in that it shows how a man can still type, point, and click with his head buried deep in his asshole. Didn't you make this same off-base observation a few threads down? You never adequately argued that point of view then, and I doubt you can do it here.
But I'll not prejudge based on your past fuckups. Give me something concrete here. I'll even give you that it isn't perfect legislation (no major shift in policy ever is in its infancy), but tell me how HCR that every other dem president has tried and failed to pass displays that Obama is over his head. How exactly has this law, much of which has yet to go into effect, proven to be this colossal failure that you're rambling about? And don't resort to the usual hypothetical and hyperbole…outline the real failures here without distracting us with childish cartoons and sci-fi references to make some bullshit fiction-based assertion the way you normally do. Show me that your'e capable of more than splooging on your computer screen to anime and offering drive-by, half assed commentary on major federal policy. Lay it out for us, please.
Individual mandate/no public option.
This despite that there was massive support from voters for the public option, yet none ever existed for an individual mandate.
If you want to make excuses for the Dems, go right ahead, but all Reid would have to do is tell the GOP to go ahead and filibuster on the floor of the Senate and tell the American People why they were denying to them what everyone wanted.
If you're going to disagree with me, let's stay on the fucking topic without introducing shit that has nothing to do with the disagreement. Moving goalposts is such a lame way to have a debate. This is about the President. Let's put you back on track here by summarizing: Halfwit Pri asserted that *Obama*'s a failure and used HCR to futilely make that point. I challenged him to outline how HCR was an indictment on the success of *Obama*'s presidency. Both of you have failed to do that, and I'll get to his reply shortly.
We're not litigating the skill of Democrats or Harry Reid in this particular thread. Start a new one if you want to, and I'll probably be the first to agree with you. However, in mentioning congress and its failure to advocate what most US citizens (including me) wanted, you described a hurdle that the president had to overcome in delivering a much-needed policy - that hurdle being the fuckups in his own party. The man isn't a fucking emperor, and if the other branch of government lacks the balls to deliver what its constituents want, what the fuck could he do? That being said, HCR is hardly a failure even though it's missing some components that are needed to perfectly overhaul the broken health care system in this country. I'll restate: unprecedented, major overhauls in US policy are rarely perfect in their infancy. It was infinitely better to deliver imperfect reform that could be modified and built upon as the public adjusts to those sweeping changes, than to throw one's hands up in defeat and let the shit fester for several more decades.
How would you have done it, Willy? And I mean how would you have done it within the framework of US democracy that is by design resistant to major policy change -- not some fantasy world where shit happens because some liberal firebrand waves a magic fucking wand.
than HC WILL be a failure. The only slim chance of this not happening is if BHO gets a 2nd term
& appoints a SC justice before HC comes to the court.
Once again,you have "reading comprehension problems" & you have "jumped the shark" : I stated that BHO's PRESIDENCY was a failure AT THIS POINT. Like Clinton at this juncture of his Presidency, I'd like to see him "redeem himself", have things in the country turn around
so he can get re-elected & I'd vote for him.
I'm a left of center independent, Zorff-----you think I relish the chance of voting for Romney ?!
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 2:13:07 PM
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 3:18:38 PM
*If* I push too hard when I'm shitting on the toilet, I might get hemorrhoids. I'm still going to have that steak at my favorite restaurant later.
I said give me something concrete, dipshit, without the hyperbole and hypothetical bullshit. We could be here all night talking about what may or may not happen, but being that neither one of us has a crystal ball, it would be fucking pointless. You still get an "F." I don't give a fuck where of center you are or what ideology you identify with.
And yes, I responded to this bullshit despite the fact that it swerved off-topic and failed to support the gist of your original post.
I've seen this endlessly from the left, and it makes my fucking eyes bleed. How many times do you need to be bitch slapped before you get it through your head that this guy isn't on your side?
Pria brought up Obama's abysmal HCR failures, and I talked about why it's a failure. I fail to see how you're not following. Now, if we're done debating how to debate, I'll move on.
The hurdle here was not getting the Democrats to do what Obama wanted. The hurdle was to get Obama to lift a fucking finger for HCR that was anything other than a giant wet blowjob the HMOs and pharmaceutical industry. Why the fuck do you think the full bill doesn't take effect until fucking 2014, when Obama's a lame duck with a lame duck Congress?
What HCR does is use my fucking tax payer dollars to fund private for-profit health care companies, and then forces me to buy their product. What the fuck do we get in return? A $100 fine per day for denying care and pre-existing conditions. Well guess what? Treating cancer costs about a half million dollars, and people with cancer can die as quickly as 3 months. Do the fucking math.
A health care overhaul is not unprecedented. It was overhauled with Medicare/Medicaid, which by the way, from the time it was signed into law until the day it went into effect was just 6 months. There was another health care overhaul under Nixon. There was another major healthcare overhaul with Medicare under Bush. So don't start crowing about the bill that fucked the American People in their collective asses being "unprecedented".
So how would I have done it? I'll tell you exactly how I would have done it. I would have pushed and railed and hammer and screamed endlessly for Congress to pass HR. 676. The language was already ready to go, as Rep. John Conyers had written it when Bush was still in office.
If Republicans in the Senate had treatened to filibuster it, I would have called Harry Reid and demand that he force the GOP to actually do the work of filibustering. If that still didn't work, then I would have told him that he should call for a new session of the Senate, where it would only take 51 votes to rewrite the rules of the Senate, and kill the fucking filibuster to get it passed. If that still didn't work, then I would have gone to each and every fucking lawmaker who was blocking the bill, regardless of party, looked at their campaign contributions, see if any came from the health care industry, and informed them that the DOJ considered this bribery, and would seek prosecution for it. I would then use regulatory agencies to go after each and every single HMO and pharmaceutical industry and raided their offices looking high and low for a single regulation that they had broken.
Guess what? I bet those motherfuckers would have crumbled in a blink of an eye, and you could have gotten HCR passed in a fucking week instead of taking a whole fucking year and a half to allow the opposition to develop strategies to defeat it. Retarded fucking talking points like "death panels" would never have happened.
So, my question is how many fucking failures from this jackass do you need before you stop making excuses for him?
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 9:11:23 PM
Willy, that's really a load of imaginative horseshit you're spewing here. You "bet they would have crumbled and gotten HCR passed in a fucking week?" lmao. You're generally pretty far off base your observations here, so I think I can accurately assert that you aren't privy to communications between the President and the two houses. But let's for the sake of your lame argument assume that Obama really did just sit staring cluelessly at the little plastic thing with numbered buttons sitting on his desk while HCR was being debated: The Dems are hardly a lockstep party. They don't have the threat of drawing and quartering hanging over their heads if they don't adhere to marching orders of some dark figurehead, so no amount of "yelling," cajoling, or threats would force a change in parliamentary procedure under normal circumstances; and certainly not for a party that was scared shitless about the realities of the impending election and never really had the balls to pursue HCR reform anyway. With the pushback and whining from within the party, it's amazing that Obama was able to get congress to do *anything* about HCR. Let's pull our heads out of our assess for a second here and recall that dems generally aren't a party of ravenous wolves waiting to join forces and push legislation through once they have a majority. They've always been a mixed bag, but people like you always manage to revert to some idealistic view of their ability to collectively champion the policies you jerk off to in your liberal wet dreams. It doesn't matter who the President is, they've never been capable of operating that way.
Your Medicare/Medicaid argument is an apples to oranges comparison considering that it applies to 20-something percent of Americans while the PPACA applies to us all -- and in that universal HCR has an established, organized record of opposition, having been attempted and shot down over the last few decades… but again, let's discuss this point within the confines of the fucking fantasy world you're posting from. Those two programs, while undoubtedly needed, were hardly perfect when established, and components necessary for their continued operation have been added over the years. If we were to apply your fucked up brand of logic, Medicare/Medicaid are "abysmal" failures as well.
The point still remains. HCR had to get done, and while we may need to revisit it just as we've had to in this country with other major and unprecedented legislation (I repeat, unprecedented -medicare, medicaid targeted groups of disadvantaged people), it was an accomplishment. An accomplishment that will undoubtedly steer this country away from the massive healthcare assfucking it's been experiencing for so long, and the all-out gang rape it was headed toward.
I should also add that there's no Santa Claus, and unicorns don't exist either. But I'm fairly sure that you'll be arguing with me about these two things next.
And you still make excuses for Obama. Amazing. Somehow the GOP managed to get bankruptcy "reform" passed in a week. They also managed to get energy "reform" passed in the same week. What, you think that the GOP is a more unified party, with it's libertarian, fundamentalist, and business-friendly wings?
Perhaps you ought to review FDR's first 100 days. The Dems had stronger control of the Senate after 2008 than they did in 1932, and yet in that time he reformed banks and monetary policy, passed the Economy Act, created the Works Projects Administration, the Rural Electrification administration, the Resettlement administration, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, established the Farm Bureau, and repealed prohibition. So don't tell me it takes a whole fucking year and a half to reform health care.
When the Dems first took up HCR there was no impending election to worry about. They had 60% majorities in each house. They could have gotten HCR done, and a hell of a lot more. They didn't. Why?
I'll tell you what I am privy to. A hell of a lot of activists in the Washington, DC area. In 2008 a close trusted friend attended the Netroots Nation conference, where Pelosi, Westley Clark, and Howard Dean spoke. Many Democratic legislators were in attendence, and in private they spoke about just how little reform they could actually get done without getting booted from power. When my activist friend told them that this was the wrong approach they dismissed him and continued to strategize.
So let's be clear here. Obama isn't a champion of progressive causes. He didn't even attempt to fight for a public option. He didn't say a word about card check. He didn't do a damn thing to raise taxes on the wealthy, rather he gave them another tax cut. He didn't close Gitmo. He didn't end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He hasn't done shit. He. is. not. on. your. side.
And you're right about one thing. HCR had to get done. What didn't need to get done is to give HMO's guaranteed customers, and give the pharmaceutical industry yet even more corporate welfare. HCR has not improved health care in this country. It has made it worse, and what's more, it has given the entire idea of HCR a bad name, an effort that progressives had worked 20 fucking years to try to accomplish.
And it's not like Congress doesn't know how to make health care work. As a federal employee, I have the same coverage that Congress gets. I pay a fraction of what everyone else does, they are not allowed to deny me care for anyfuckingthing, pre-existing conditions or not, and my plan is administered as a non-profit. A liberal wet dream? You bet your ass. A liberal wet dream that's already a reality...but only if you work for the feds.
So keep making those excuses, zorrfy. I know battered wives will stick to their hubbies till the end. Unfortunately, the end usually results in tragedy.
but ( in the words of Ricky Ricardo )'Lemme splain':
With the economy in SUCH fragile shape, I hear REPEATEDLY from business owners that they will NOT hire becuase of "added costs of Obamacare".
So, giving them the benefit of the doubt, what IF that IS partially responsible for the high unemployment rate ?! WTF does anyone care about health care if they've been outta work for more than a year, unemployment benefits have run out & they're starving ?! And, if biz folks are lying ( which they've been known to do ,) if HC reform wasn't proposed at the time it was, they would have no bullshit excuse to rely on.
Also, "outrage" over the "individual mandate" created more bitter polarization & gave rise to the nutjob Tea party, who took over the house & will block any further needed stimulus plans ( highly needed infrastructure repair ) that Obama would propose to jumpstart the economy.
Also, "Bunky", don't jump to conclusions : I voted for Obama last time.
Lastly, Zorff, is pic below you ?
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 12:59:23 PM
No argument on condescending. I have a lot of contempt for morons, and it generally comes through when I'm responding to them. I am also indeed very biased. I tend to lead toward facts and logic and remain unswayed by emotions and comic strips. I'm inclined to disagree on the asshole thing, but I'll just give you that one without argument as a show of good faith. So good. You're 3 points up, comrade.
I can't concede on your argument about Obama, though. Especially since it's a simple regurgitation of some bullshit you already stated and had shot down a few days ago. Look...when you take out the cute little cartoons, childish pictures, and moronic rants, your argument essentially comes down to this: Obama shouldn't have undertaken desperately needed reform because some assholes would use it as an excuse not to hire -- despite that fact that they would have used another excuse not to hire and the results would have been exactly the fucking same. Do you realize how fucking stupid that is? And HCR or not, the tea party would have been right there regardless - impeding legislation and scaring the shit out of Americans by fear mongering about the negro President. Where is your connection between the rise of the tea party and the individual mandate? Care to furnish us with a link that supports your claim? Or can I assume that you were just pulling that out of your wrinkled old ass too? I feel comfortable in assuming that latter. Even if it was HCR that empowered those idiots, are you arguing that needed legislation should be shelved because it *might* give rise to an extreme political faction of squirrelly morons? Well that way be a really dumbshit way to govern, wouldn't it Professor? Because if it's one thing that has been proven to work in the governance of this great country, it's stagnation.
You're really grasping at very thin straws here to make an uninformed supposition about the success of the current President. I told you to give me something concrete. All you've done was espoused a bunch of other bullshit for which there isn't an inkling of supporting evidence (unless your uneducated bloviations count as evidence). Case in point: "WTF does anyone care about health care if they've been outta work for more than a year, unemployment benefits have run out & they're starving." lol. Yes. Because needing a job certainly eliminates the need for access to healthcare doesn't it?
Lmao. You're a fucking clown, Priapus. Stick to the cartoons, movies, and fiction in general.
He calls whatever you say bullshit and asks you to back it up even if you cite sources and examples but he doesn't bother to read it. Then when you explain your point further he says it isn't "concrete" enough and continues to criticize. Meanwhile, he neither makes an argument nor uses any sources, ideas or logic. What a useless fucking toad!
which he didn't really respond to & just came across like an insulting moron ( something that you & I have also been accused of , sometimes by each other--------LOL ! )
I will agree that his "debating skills leave something to be desired".
RIBETT !
-- Modified on 8/17/2011 5:13:28 PM
Funny cartoon, but I have to agree with Zorf. The premise of your argument is really based on guesswork. We needed healthcare reform, we got it, and the sky hasn't fallen because of it. Just easily as you can say it was a failure, I can say that we'll likely all be better off in a few years because of it.