I live in a city where the word "conservative" is as brown paper bag as human walking down the street chained to a lead.
Its sad to me that traditional values of working hard and laissez-faire have gotten swept up in an aggrandized sense of entitlement. Perhaps it is backlash from the financial collapse of '08. I look at my grandparents generation, as Brokaw called them, "The Greatest Generation" (great read btw) and I see a work ethic and attitude that has slowly dissipated with each generation birthed. Regardless of what side of the aisle you stand on, i can only hope that our lawmakers in Congress take more than a moment of reflection and end this era of out- of -control entitlement.Then I find myself asking the question: The greatest of whom and what?
The first few words that come to mind Capitalism, Industrialism, Nationalism.
What really made the era great? What ever it was "it" is could it be duplicated?
I think "traditional values" weren't all that great for a lot of Americans. They weren't great for blacks, or Asians, or Jews, Hispanics, or Native Americans. They weren't great for gays or women.
In the past, people had to work hard. They didn't have any other choice. The choice was work hard or die. They worked hard to give their children a better world than they had. Technology and innovation has allowed this generation to be incredibly lazy. People act like that is a bad thing. Personally, I'm quite happy I don't have to chop down trees to build a log cabin.
But laissez-faire didn't make this country great. The closest thing we've ever had to laissez-faire was during the industrial revolution, in which workers weren't even paid with money. We had a financial collapse about as frequently as we have elections today. The era of the Long Depression was not good for the vast majority of Americans, unless your name was Rockefeller or Carnegie.
The generation that came out of WW2 saw a society built that came out of the regulations from the New Deal. It was an economic system in which we had nearly full employment, unionization rates were high, a single full time job could provide for a wife and two children, and still allow for someone to save for retirement and vacation. And this system created the strongest economy the world had ever seen.
It's strange how we view "entitlements" these days. For instance, people say Social Security is an "entitlement", even though they pay into it their whole lives. You don't hear people calling it an "earned benefit".
What I call entitlements is our nation's top 1%, who are always looking for handouts. Whether it be corporate welfare, or the fact that no one prosecutes them when they break the law.
David Cay Johnston, a REAL free market economist, wrote in his book Free Lunch, that there isn't a single professional sport in this country that would be profitable in a free market. 100% of their profits is derived from taxpayer handouts. Talk about entitlements!
Ask Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland about entitlements. Private defense contractors want to keep their money, so we're still producing tanks, despite we have hundreds of them parked, and they will likely never be used.
What made the WW2 generation so great is that they understood that the only way to beat a fascist is to use force. Placating them doesn't work. What is forgotten is that the American business community rather liked Hitler and Mussolini. They liked fascism so much that business tried a coup to overthrow FDR and turn the USA into a fascist dictatorship. Yes, it's true, do a wikipedia search of "The Business Plot".
Today, such plots are unnecessary. Today we have fascists in positions of high power, being bribed by fascists on Wall Street. The hippies gave us the philosophy of "smile on your brother", even when your "brother" is beating you senseless with a police baton, who's following the orders of those very fascists.
And that is why this country is so fucked up now. Fascists only understand force, and activists have become spineless cowards who are more likely to cry and whimper than stand up for themselves.
-- Modified on 6/29/2013 10:00:10 AM
Let's take your point about Social Security. You re right, people paid into it all their lives and have earned it...
BUT IF THAT IS THE CASE????
How can you justify things democrats now want to do like means testing for the Social Security? If the rich paid in, why should they not be able to get money out as well? If however, you start a program like this, then it just becomes another welfare transfer system and an entitlement program.
What really built this economy were the tycoon magnates of the 1800s. You know, the guys you hate. Did they mistreat workers, hell yes, and I for one am glad to see that stopped. But as the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and labor thought they should get more than their skills were worth and not have to take risks like company founders, well, suddenly the international markets and production became very attractive.
Let's be honest, what has killed the middle class in America IS THE MIDDLE CLASS!! They got lazy, they got an entitlement mentality, and they still will buy the cheapest thing they can find, manufacturer be damned. Be honest, do you own or how many of your friends own an iPhone or iPad. Last I checked they are not made here.
Sorry, but I am not going to lose a lot of sleep for people who do it to themselves.
Image below bought to you by the American Middle Class heading into Walmart on Black Friday.
There has been talk of means testing for Social Security for a long time now. One would think that rich people wouldn't bother with it because they're rich and don't need it, but taking away a few dollars from a rich person is like murdering children, given their reaction to that notion.
But the point of means testing is to turn Social Security into a welfare program, so it can more easily be eliminated. Any Dem who supports it, is a nothing more than a bribed closeted fascist working for Wall Street.
The mistreatment of workers hasn't stopped. People in China are jumping out of buildings. Mines in West Virginia are collapsing. There are more sweat shops in NYC today then there was back when the Triangle Shirtwaiste Fire happened.
The Carnegies and Rockefellers didn't build this economy. The economy was built IN SPITE of them. The economy was a basketcase during the industrial revolution. There was generational debt and poverty.
No, what built this economy was the New Deal. It was the crazy notion that you can't have a functioning economy unless people can afford to BUY STUFF.
The pendulum didn't swing too far the other way. What happened is that the bosses at companies like GM so badly mismanaged things that they ran their companies into the ground trying to get rich off of them. Reagan changed the tax code to encourage this nonsense. And when everything went wrong, who do the wealthy class blame? Well, the workers, of course. What else is new?
But it wasn't the WORKERS who created the GM10 plan. That was Roger Smith. And that plan was so costly and poorly executed that it nearly bankrupt the company.
You'll notice that GM continually complained that they couldn't up the gas mileage of their cars, despite that the Japanese and even the Chinese were doing it. You'll notice GM continually kept putting out turds. But when they got reorganized after the financial collapse, who did more to save the company then the UNION, who purchased a majority stake in that company? Now that the old management is gone, guess what? GM is putting out quality good looking cars that get 42 miles per gallon. It must be a "miracle".
You'll notice that Canada doesn't have any financial crises. They actually regulate their fucking banks. Germany doesn't have these sort of problems. Maybe it's because, by law, unions must be represented on the executive board of every company.
We have created a system by which the rich are continually put on welfare for doing nothing but depriving companies of their value and transferring that wealth into their bank accounts. The rich don't work anymore. They're on welfare. The only work they do is breaking other people's piggy banks and collecting the change.
The only reason why international markets opened up is because of free trade. Rich people got together with politicians and asked, "how can we employ people for 10 cents an hour?" They said, "move to Mexico or China". Then someone asked, "wait, but we have trade tariffs that change an import tax to prevent this sort of thing so we keep jobs in the USA. How do we get around that?" Then someone said, "Let's just get rid of the tariffs." Then someone said, "Wow! This is the best thing since slavery!"
Cue the predictable response from the rich who have gutted this country of manufacturing jobs. What could that response possibly be? Wait for it......wait for it......drum roll please...............
Blame the workers.
Gee, we've heard that song and dance before, didn't we?
Question...do you think that people would freak out so much about Black Friday if they could afford to NOT freak out about it? See any rich people standing in line there?
So let's stop at the point where I still agree with you,
As a so called "rich person" I have no problems at all with "means testing" I don't need, nor do I ever expect to receive a penny from Social Security. SS should be a safety net for those who would otherwise starve in their old age, not a forced retirement plan for all. Given the choice between putting in millions of my own money at the point of a gun, just to get back a lousy couple grand a month, or putting in thousands and never seeing a penny. I would certainly opt for the former.
Taking 15% of every penny I ever make, not investing it in anything and then giving me an IOU that I will get my money back in my old age might be believable to someone who thinks that Madoff was simply "misunderstood" but those of us who live in the real world understand that a system like that is simply unworkable, or at least we should.
I am perfectly capable of looking out for my own retirement, I don't really want the extra burden of looking out for yours as well. I am all for having a safety net old people won't be cast out on the street, but a forced retirement plan done at gunpoint by the federal government is more properly described as socialism, not social security.
Good for you Gambler. The smartest dude on the planet!!
That's what I thought.
SS needs either more money put into the system, less money taken out, or scrapping altogether. It's not going to be scrapped so taking what resources it has and giving them to the truly needy is the best thing we can do with it.
and I am glad you are beginning to accept my superior intellect. Maybe there is hope for you yet? lmao
You state that "15% of every penny I ever make"...WRONG!
For 2013 the maximum paid in for FICA tax is only on $ 113,700 at a rate (half of your comment) of 7.65%. There is an employer match...but in most cases the folks we're discussing are NOT employers. You and I pay that....most don't. After an employee reaches $ 113,700 there is an unlimited medicare tax paid on wages of 1.45%...with the same employer match. So the reality is a high income (in this case over $ 113,700) tends to NOT pay into the system proportionately with those making less. For example, if I make $ 1M this year as wages, I am only paying into social security on 10% of my total income. Yet most employees pay in nearly 100%. This is easily fixable...but Congress has failed over and over to address the obvious. The responses over the decades has been to raise the limits and payroll tax rates...essentially allowing the high incomes to evade this tax.
Back in the 1970's when the "greatest generation" was looking at retirement the system was sound due to pensions and profit sharing plans. But then things began to unravel as underfunded and unfunded plans fell by the wayside. Along comes the IRA and 401k...allowing the typical worker to plan for his own retirement. Yet in so many cases this went unfunded as the "baby boomer" generation (mine and yours) elected to spend it on shit...like fucking hookers? So now that "our" generation is on the precipice of retirement age...many have NO chance to do so. Hence in many cases the "baby boomers" have little more than their social security to use as retirement incomes.
I have implored MY kids who are just entering the workforce to set up their plans...NOW. Fund them fully and NOT ever think anyone (Federal or State governments) will be their safety net. And not expect ME to be their retirement plan either...I'm fucking spending all of it on hookers LO
Just because I never see that half of it on my pay stub does not mean that I'm not paying it. It's all part of the cost to employ me, no different than my pay or insurance premiums or any other benefits. Sure, the tax implications for employers might be affected by which pile of money we are looking at, but the total is still simply the cost of employing me.
they call it self employment tax, but potato, potatoe.
I am fully aware of the SS cap on earnings, what I am referring to is that SS needs either more inflow or less outflow to remain solvent. One of the most popular solutions bandied about is to remove said cap and tax ALL earned income no matter how much that is.
My statmement that I would rather pay in thousands and never take a dime, rather than put in millions to get only a pittance back was my way of saying that since dismantling SS entirely is not a viable option, I would prefer cutting benefits to people like myself, not just cutting them, but eliminating them altogether, as opposed to removing the income tax. It is the much lesser of the evils IMO.
To ask "rich" people to pay an unlimited amount of money into a system where there is a limit as to how much of your money you can get back is not social "security" it's flat out socialism, if my benefits are limited, so should my contributions, or at least have the intellectual honesty to call it what it is, SOCIALISM!!!
Obviously if they change the rules, I will change with them, and limit my earned income to a pittance, but that doesn't make it right or fair, it's just another example of the government making liars out of honest men to keep from getting hosed.
And we agree on the issues.
I was putting out there that most folks don't work for themselves...and most don't make in excess of $ 100k. Hence I was pointing out for posters like ed the limitation issues as they stood today.
We agree in essence that the system as it was designed and modified over the years is inherently unworkable. Yet no one has the balls to scrap it and come up with something that can replace it going forward.
This has been a hot topic in the tax world for decades. Congress has asked CPA after CPA to come up with workable solutions...yet each time something is proposed the kids in Congress fail to implement as it will be unfavorable. And the only job that politicians have is to get re-elected.
I have had my thoughts over the years on how to correct these flaws...but I am NOT a politician. I know...shocking considering how I portray myself here LOL
So until such a time that real people with backbones are prepared to overhaul the system...it will just limp along as it has been.
is that like most Ponzi schemes, the money is never actually invested, the money actually shrinks over time in a real sense, not just against inflation as the administering of it cost money. Just like most other pyramid schemes it requires a larger and larger pool of "contributers" to pay out the original payees which ultimately means the system at some point will go broke. No matter what the politicians claim 2+2 does not equal thirty, and you can't have an ever shrinking labor pool supporting an ever increasing pool of retirees without some major changes. IMO the best solution would be to scrap the entire thing and start over, but I am a realist and I know that's just not going to happen.
The second best solution is to quit kidding ourselves that money put aside by government (I can barely contain my laughter as I type this) for retirement, without being invested in anything is ever going to support the evergrowing number of senior citizens that live longer and longer. If we change the stated purpose of SS and focus only on those who could not survive without it, that would free up countless billions of dollars that could actually be invested and grow a retirement fund with the same dollars that are just sitting around in this imaginary lock box.
You and I can go to DC and speak our cases for SS (no...not Saturnsky).
But we wouldn't be the first ones to try and explain the logic (or lack of) that the system as it is today is dysfunctional. And we can prove that it will go belly up within 20 years.
Nope...it still requires those folks on the Hill to cast a vote that would piss many off. And again...the politicians job is to simply get re-elected.
The discussions of having the money actually invested has been discussed for nearly 40 years now...perhaps longer. But again...those fellas (and gals) who vote would have no where to dip into to pay for pork if those funds were segregated.
Honestly the best course of action is to take care of those who are willing to listen. Our children are the future...and as I posted earlier my responsibility to them is to secure their futures. With the opportunity to plan for themselves and have control over their financial security...that eliminates the need for government subsidies.
Unfortunately for every kid today that is doing just that...I suspect that there are at least 100 that aren't. At least from the numbers of "boomers" that don't have two nickels to rub together. I suspect that cycle will continue.
Shit...if we go to DC maybe Curly can set us up with some hookers. Might be worth the trip LOL
The second best solution is to quit kidding ourselves that money put aside by government (I can barely contain my laughter as I type this) for retirement, without being invested in anything is ever going to support the evergrowing number of senior citizens that live longer and longer. If we change the stated purpose of SS and focus only on those who could not survive without it, that would free up countless billions of dollars that could actually be invested and grow a retirement fund with the same dollars that are just sitting around in this imaginary lock box.
As for SS, just like most people who understand the game, when the burden becomes too onerous, I will simply make adjustments. Right now SS costs me a little over 15 grand a year, I chalk it up to the price of living in this country and simply bend over and take it with a smile. but IF the lefties have their way and remove the cap, potentially costing me millions over my remaining work life, I will do just like Romney and most other truly "rich" people and stop declaring anything but a pittance as "earned income"
One of the beauties of the oil business is I can simply reinvest all the revenue my wells bring, write off all the IDC's thereby paying almost no taxes and then flip the leases after a year and day, take whatever I need to live on, and reinvest the rest, and basically put off the tax man forever. It's really not that hard to do.
Funny, SS reform was one of the few things that Bush had right, but he did not have the political will or the political capital to make it happen.
The New Deal build this economy?? LMFAO!!!!
What saved this economy was WW2. The new deal just helped us limp along until the war.
Forget the GM10 plan. You are trying to get fancy so you can place blame where you want to. The REAL REASON the auto manufacturing died is because starting in the 70s and 80s, Detriot build SHIT CARS. The Japanese made them better and more competitively. Simple economics 101. Both management and labor are to blame for that.
I hear you complain about free trade, but its the American Consumer who demanded it. You could still but all made in USA products, but how many really do that. What type of Cell Phone do you have Willy?
I actually trust you enough to answer honestly.
You are right about how do you have a middle class when people can not afford to buy stuff, but that is why you are seeing the middle class decline. Now this is where we really differ. I still believe you have the ability to get yourself into any class you want to be in if you are willing to work and sacrifice. A lot of the richest people on the planet are self made, so to argue otherwise is just hiding behind a will to try. So let the middle class shrink, because I do not buy into liberal group mentality thought. You are where you are because that is a measure of your own effort. Don't like being poor, do something about it. Just be glad you live somewhere that allows you to do that.
Thank you Snowman. It is sad to see our country so divided. People come to this country for opportunity, opportunity that exists like nowhere else in the world.
It all comes down to accountability. Most look to blame something or someone else. Just look at the propserous self-help industry. The irony. The value of earning is drfiting more and more towards entitlement - all you have to is look at the little league sports teams - every kid gets a trophy now.
I don't know when this happened but I do know that things were quite different in the 80s when I went to Catholic school.
The country elected an intellectual. A brilliant orator. They did not elect a leader.
We only have to look back a few short years to Bill Clinton to find one, and like Obama Bill Clinton was NOT what I would call a leader, but unlike Obama, I think by and large Bill Clinton did a pretty good job.
Yes, this country has been victimized by political correctness run amok. We coddle our youth instead of instilling values and a work ethic in them. It's one thing to tell our youth they can have and/or be anythng they want to in life. It's quite another to teach them that they can do so without any effort on their part. Like you said, "every kid gets a trophy" what kind of message is that sending to our youth, you can bet the Chinese are teaching their kids to win, we need to do the same if we are to have a snowballs chance in hell in ther future.
-- Modified on 6/30/2013 8:59:09 AM
At least about the work ethic of my kids' generation. My boys both work like hell, have a strong work ethic, and good ethics in general. Most of their friends are the same. There is hope
I live in NYC. My experience has been that people feel they deserve to reap the benefits from other's hard work. I am not talking about seniors or little children. I am speaking about able-bodied people who if they focused and had a strategy would be able to get back to work and not have to rely on the government.
I think Milennials are coddled by the parents, in general and the fact that everyone gets a trophy at the end of sports season is demotivating.
What ever happened to a little competition? As for the "greatest generation" and the "new deal" many of those programs were not mean to be permanent programs, including SS which is why there is a major issue with it now.
As for the financial collapse - main street was just as greedy as Wall street. All you had to do is turn on the television at 2am for the many Carlton Sheets infomercials
My three adult kids are hard workers, and they work smart, and they seem to associate with those of the same caliber. Kids tend to go with what is modeled for them.
Second, perhaps, but I never pry into their private matters, so I would not know. 
I agree with the thread (of everyone that has posted).
I was raised by my Grandma (with my parents around). So I was taught the old ways. Because of this, I can't relate much with the dumb young idiots.
Brought up to work hard, take care of your family, and anything you want you earn. I will help another out, but they have to help themselves and try too. My grandmother would come out of her grave to smack me upside the head if I didn't get up (no matter where I am at) and open the door for someone who needed it (elderly, disabled, children). I do it because when I am in that position, I want it done to me.
I was brought up to help others who need it. Called pay it forward. Not to be mistaken for those wanting freebies.
As far as technology, it is great because we can learn more... but many others use it to be lazy. Fucking sad.
There are many young kids that are very smart and they will run circles around you. Unfortunately, you don't hear a lot about then.
My mother worked from 15-65. I own a small business, and I am pretty sure that when time comes to leave this earth, that I will be either at work or in my kitchen. I even held a part-time job, and was accountable to someone else the whole time I escorted. The money was very little, and I passed up several appts escorting to keep that little part-time job. Why did I do that? I didn't ever want to lose my work ethics or become lazy. I didn't ever want to put all my eggs in one basket. I wanted a nice cover for my family. I lived off my part-time job money and saved very penny I made escorting. I didn't go buy new car, new house, etc. I used the money to start a business so I could continue to work and support myself.
Now, I have this small business that is mine. I agree with you. People do not want to work, they only want a paycheck. They steal, some big some petty. They want to tell you all their personal problems. And I even had a grown man that quit because he said he had no baby-sitter! That is not an excuse in my book! One guy wanted me to fire him so he could try to get unemployment. Trying to find a good employee is much like a single person dating. You have to go through several losers and I have lost faith in this next generation. So, I have cut my hours at my business, make less money, and do it with less people and I am fucking happy to be rid of these exhausting losers that don't want to work.
Sure, your father told you about the good old days and your grand father told you about the good old days as well. Every generation believes in the god old days, what they did, how they did it and how great it was then and how rotten the world is now.
The reality is that the universe evolves and everything in it with the universe. Change is constant in this universe so there never was a good old day. Someone in the future will see and say today as the good old day tomorrow.
Meaningless chatter by the myopic.
Its sad to me that traditional values of working hard and laissez-faire have gotten swept up in an aggrandized sense of entitlement. Perhaps it is backlash from the financial collapse of '08. I look at my grandparents generation, as Brokaw called them, "The Greatest Generation" (great read btw) and I see a work ethic and attitude that has slowly dissipated with each generation birthed.
Regardless of what side of the aisle you stand on, i can only hope that our lawmakers in Congress take more than a moment of reflection and end this era of out- of -control entitlement.
If you do, you will find conservatives are full of shit. It is not they don't like it but they prefer the entitlement to go to the rich 1%.
Tell me why the rich is getting richer and everyone else