With every thing facing federal and state government today even the anti-gun people have to admit that congress should be looking at a budget deal, lowering unemployment and decreasing the natioal debt FIRST. With California on the verge of bankruptcy, 1 in 5 cities in similar shape and many states facing large budget deficits, not to mention prison populations that are increasing at a record rate (so much so that many dont even serve 1/3 of a manditory sentence) it just seems like they are doing anything possible to avoid the real issues facing this country in the next 5 years.
I'm sure even the most ardent gun propronants will admit that even if laws are passed today it would be years before we see an effect on our streets, and I d be willing to argue that stiffer prison sentences (extreme) for people committing gun crimes would have a faster farther reaching effect. Why not make it a 30 manditory sentence for committing a felony with a firearm? Stand up for your convictions if you want to see a decrease in gun violence.
If a convicted felon is found with a firearm in his possession it should be a life sentence, it might actually help.
Instead you will see legislation passed that wont have any true effect, and in fact will be tied up in courts across the land for years to come. Even going so far as making law abiding gun owners criminals simply because they purchased a gun legally.
The gun industry directly employ s 32,000 people, if you add in ammunition manufacturing and accessories the numbers are closer to 45,000. Rough estimates are around 58 billion in sales. Its not just a persons right you are talking about but a large industy.
Prison does not seem to have much deterrent effect on criminals now, so tacking on longer sentences is not going to make any difference. Note that we already have sentence enhancements for crimes committed with firearms.
Further, as a solution to gun violence, such a law would be as poor a "fit" with the cause of gun violence as other gun control laws – most felons do not commit gun violence after release, so it would be unfair to penalize all for the acts of a minority.
And while I don’t think California is on the “verge of bankruptcy” – unlike a number of California cities and counties - increased prison sentences are the last thing that state needs. It can’t afford to house the prisoners it has now and, in fact, is under court order to release some 30,000 inmates bc the prisons are in such poor condition that they violate the Constitution. I've proposed that we simply raise the property tax but St. Croix won't let me.
So while you are correct that there is no legislative solution to the problem and that there are other more compelling issues for the law to address, I think the gun control debate has value in itself. What we really need is a cultural shift to dispel the erroneous notion held by so many that they somehow "need" to have guns for their own protection, or that they actually are safer (except in rare settings) when they are packing heat, as I argued with Ed last week. We also need peer reviewed statistical studies as cause and effect between gun control and gun violence.
But lets not throw Andy Dufresne and Red into prison for life just bc we pick them up with a shotgun.
First things first mari - I need you to go through your portfolio and ensure you have no mutual funds that hold stock in Sturm Ruger and Smith & Wesson. I think that will initially make you feel that you are doing your part, whatever part that is.
I think the OP is lamenting the fact that Obama and Congress are not focusing on what's really important, the economy. But in fact Obama has spent too much time on the economy, and that's part of the problem. $800B Stimulus, Cars for Clunkers, Mortgage Relief Program, 99 weeks of unemployment, 2 year Payroll Tax Holiday, etc...etc...etc, and what do we have, 1.5% GDP growth, Wow! Shit, the 4th quarter GDP was negative. And now, Obama now says the entire economy is at risk due to sequestration.
Remember Allen Iverson, and "Practice". We are talking about $85B. $85B! We're talking about $85B, and the world is coming to an end. $85B is 2.2% of the federal budget. 2.2% and the world is coming to an end. Practice, we're talking about practice.
Re guns, Obama just goes from initiative to initiative, and nothing really gets done, or at least done well. ACA has got more flaws, problems, and unintended consequences. We've got leadership and Congress that's not really good at multi-tasking. So any gun legislation is going to be a fucking waste of time, just like ACA, just like this Keynesian on steroids approach in an attempt to juice the economy. At some point in time yes, but not now.
CA is now the HIGHEST tax state, and you want more. Give it a rest. In fact, express your views in front of Phil Mickelson while he is teeing with one of his drivers.
P.S. Duke's fight song sucks. See you in March
-- Modified on 2/19/2013 6:34:20 PM
Our government believes it can control and stimulate the ecomony. They refuse to address the national debt or federal spending, come up with a budget or quite frankly agree on anything. With fed. intrest rates at near 0% for the past 6 years inflation is starting to catch up on us and it's going to get worse.
Taxing more isn't going to work without other concessions and the idea that our government needs to protect us in ever facet of our lives is untenable, at some point every american needs to take responsibility for themselves.
Californias spending per capitia has increased 43% from 2001. Correct me if I'm wrong but dont they spend more per capitia than any state in the nation? More taxes is the answer?
I think the OP is lamenting the fact that Obama and Congress are not focusing on what's really important, the economy. But in fact Obama has spent too much time on the economy, and that's part of the problem. $800B Stimulus, Cars for Clunkers, Mortgage Relief Program, 99 weeks of unemployment, 2 year Payroll Tax Holiday, etc...etc...etc, and what do we have, 1.5% GDP growth, Wow! Shit, the 4th quarter GDP was negative. And now, Obama now says the entire economy is at risk due to sequestration.
Remember Allen Iverson, and "Practice". We are talking about $85B. $85B! We're talking about $85B, and the world is coming to an end. $85B is 2.2% of the federal budget. 2.2% and the world is coming to an end. Practice, we're talking about practice.
Re guns, Obama just goes from initiative to initiative, and nothing really gets done, or at least done well. ACA has got more flaws, problems, and unintended consequences. We've got leadership and Congress that's not really good at multi-tasking. So any gun legislation is going to be a fucking waste of time, just like ACA, just like this Keynesian on steroids approach in an attempt to juice the economy. At some point in time yes, but not now.
CA is now the HIGHEST tax state, and you want more. Give it a rest. In fact, express your views in front of Phil Mickelson while he is teeing with one of his drivers.
P.S. Duke's fight song sucks. See you in March
-- Modified on 2/19/2013 6:34:20 PM
…next year.
This year….not so much. I really outsmarted myself on your Duke-UCLA bet because I’m almost sure Duke is going to have a better record than UCLA by tournament time.
Herbalife profit up 12% and they raised guidance which is pretty amazing with all the bad publicity and the 20 million they spent fighting Ackman.
The real question is – when will Ackman have to cover the shares he borrowed to short the stock to the tune of one billion? He says he has no options and his target price is zero.
That ain’t happening in the foreseeable future. Surely all the bad news is baked into the stock. I think he has made a big mistake.
I would agrue with national recidivism rates at 40% within 3yrs as a national average that the prison systems need to be looked at. If you just release someone to reincarcerate them within 3 years what is the point in releasing them in the first place?
Violent offenders are even worse - The rearrest rate for violent offenders remained relatively stable (59.6% in 1983 compared to 61.7% in 1994) and has remained fairly constant today.
I agree that the prison system needs to be more tailored the individual, giving credit to inmates who better themselves, ie. hs diploma, college diploma, trade school education, volunteer programs. I can see the benefit in them but to just assume that they are rehabilitated because they served their time is naive. At some point dont we have to realize that certain people will never contribute to society?
Prisons dont work but the alternatives many dont have the heart for. The USA is not alone in this issue, many industrialized nations are seeing violent crime skyrocket. Some of them with total gun bans. Maybe some of the middle eastern countries draconian approach to criminal justice has some validity. Taking the hand of a violent offender and putting them on social security might be cheaper in the long run?
Gun control is so subjective, I support gun rights, the second amendment, the bill of rights. I dont believe in changing it because a small portion of our population cant or wont conform. If we cant attach mental health background checks into gun reform there will be very little real protection. I would be willing to bet that Lanza was on more than one prescription for mental issues. The Virgina Tech killer had been treated and drugged for mental health issues from the age of 12. Holmes had seen a psychiatrist and made vague threats but nothing was done until it was to late. Jared Lee Loughner, gabby giffords shooter was arrested and convicted of drug charges and denied enlistment into the US military. In 2010 he was suspended from Pima Community College in September 2010 because of his bizarre behavior and disruptions in classes and the library. Should we not take the mental health into account?
I own a number of guns, all locked away, most I haven't shot in a year, some I've never even fired and I don't believe the premise that my guns are dangerous. If I had children in my home either I'd have to reconsider or teach them about guns from an early age, but it should be my decision. I have a conceal and carry, I've never carried a firearm in the US. PERIOD. But I believe in my right to if I feel the need.
Statistics for firearms deaths are relatively low considering the shear number of guns in our country and the fact that you simply have to be 21 and not have committed a crime barring you from owning one to purchase an AR15. I understand that gun control should be discussed but the track our politicians are taking is entirely wrong and i believe there are underlying reasons for it. The simple fact that they dont track the number of times firearms are use as a deterant in crimes makes gun control stats a mute point.
Longer prison sentences aren't the answer. We already have a draconian as fuck system of justice in this country.
Gun crimes are the result of societal decay, poverty, and income inequality. Or what Saint calls, "tax breaks for me!!!". 
A large number of the victims of gun crimes are criminals themselves. In shit holes like Camden, New Orleans, Baltimore, and Chicago, there's so many criminals running around that there's not very many *innocent* bystanders. Fuck, in Chi-Town alone, they can't even keep their own Congressmen and Governors from behind bars.
Given all this, it seems to me that we need to start thinking outside the box.
Maybe a better solution would be to round up all the worst thugs and killers we put in prison, from Chi-Town to Camden, put them in a giant paddy wagon, back it up to Big Brother Bank corporate headquarters, and send those thugs into the building armed to the teeth.
1) if that happened, gun control legislation could be enacted immediately, no questions asked.
2) the banks would stop fucking us in ass for fear of them getting fucked in the ass, and
3) we wouldn't have over-crowded prisons anymore.
See, I'm a pragmatist. 
I guess I think the prison system is needed in some cases, unless we talk execution and at fiscally responsible cost. Child molesters and a large portion of violent offenders will never be rehabilitated, much less safe to be released back into society. Compassion and empithy are learned as a very young child and some people will never have it or just plain dont want to have it.
Most other crimes there are better ways to rehibilitate than our current prison system, and cheaper.
...some people commit crimes for economic reasons. Some do it just because they like the thrill of it. Some commit crimes because they're mentally ill.
The point is that it's a complicated matter. And since we do such a poor job rehabilitating people, we shouldn't just throw our hands up and say rehabilitation doesn't work. It does work in many cases, we just do a shitty job rehabilitating people.
You know what Break-Down therapy is? Anyone who's been through basic training has an idea of what it's like. A similiar model is used at many drug rehab centers and in prisons. The idea is rather bone headed. Destroy the ego, and replace it with anew.
This is so utterly bone headed because it fails to understand that to attempt to destroy one's ego is to cause an incredible amount of trauma to an already disturbed person.
There are alternatives to this. Build-up therapy. It's therapy that focuses on people's strengths. It also treats the subject with respect and dignity.
Sweden uses a similar sort of model with their prison system. It shouldn't be a surprise that they get very different results than we do.
-- Modified on 2/19/2013 9:53:16 PM
You would agree that one therapy probably is not going to work in all cases. What works well for one prisoner wont for another. Prisons are our mental health hospitals today and there isnt much talk of changing it.
Giving prisoners job skills and close supervision after release are probably the 2 most important things we can do, but many prisoners dont better themselves. Look at Oregons rearrest rates and their prisons and you'll see that its at 21%, they couple both of these factors together well.
The point is that it's a complicated matter. And since we do such a poor job rehabilitating people, we shouldn't just throw our hands up and say rehabilitation doesn't work. It does work in many cases, we just do a shitty job rehabilitating people.
You know what Break-Down therapy is? Anyone who's been through basic training has an idea of what it's like. A similiar model is used at many drug rehab centers and in prisons. The idea is rather bone headed. Destroy the ego, and replace it with anew.
This is so utterly bone headed because it fails to understand that to attempt to destroy one's ego is to cause an incredible amount of trauma to an already disturbed person.
There are alternatives to this. Build-up therapy. It's therapy that focuses on people's strengths. It also treats the subject with respect and dignity.
Sweden uses a similar sort of model with their prison system. It shouldn't be a surprise that they get very different results than we do.
-- Modified on 2/19/2013 9:53:16 PM
It should cost virtually nothing to house prisoners.
Take a look at how Sheriff Joe was able to cut costs in Maricopa. His philosophy is right, they are people who have broke the law, so law abiding citizens should not be burdened paying for them. They can raise food, they can work.
Make them do something a lot of them did not do on the outside, an honest days work.
This is from the Department of Justice investigation which is now the basis of a lawsuit agaisnt Arpaio:
1. Forcing Women To Sleep In Their Own Menstrual Blood: In Arpaio’s jails, “female Latina LEP prisoners have been denied basic sanitary items. In some instances, female Latina LEP prisoners have been forced to remain with sheets or pants soiled from menstruation because of MCSO’s failure to ensure that detention officers provide language assistance in such circumstances.”
2. Assaulting Pregnant Women: “[A]n MCSO officer stopped a Latina woman – a citizen of the United States and five months pregnant at the time – as she pulled into her driveway. After she exited her car, the officer then insisted that she sit on the hood of the car. When she refused, the officer grabbed her arms, pulled them behind her back, and slammed her, stomach first, into the vehicle three times. He then dragged her to the patrol car and shoved her into the backseat. He left her in the patrol car for approximately 30 minutes without air conditioning. The MCSO officer ultimately issued a citation for failure to provide identification.”
3. Stalking Latina Women: “In another instance, during a crime suppression operation, two MCSO officers followed a Latina woman, a citizen of the United States, for a quarter of a mile to her home. The officers did not turn on their emergency lights, but insisted that the woman remain in her car when she attempted to exit the car and enter her home. The officers’ stated reasons for approaching the woman was a non-functioning license plate light. When the woman attempted to enter her home, the officers used force to take her to the ground, kneed her in the back, and handcuffed her. The woman was then taken to an MCSO substation, cited for ‘disorderly conduct,’ and returned home. The disorderly conduct citation was subsequently dismissed.”
4. Criminalizing Being A Latino: “During raids, [Arpaio's Criminal Enforcement Squad] typically seizes all Latinos present, whether they are listed on the warrant or not. For example, in one raid CES had a search warrant for 67 people, yet 109 people were detained. Fifty-nine people were arrested and 50 held for several hours before they were released. Those detained, but not on the warrant, were seized because they were Latino and present at the time of the raid. No legal justification existed for their detention.”
5. Criminalizing Living Next To The Wrong People: “[D]uring a raid of a house suspected of containing human smugglers and their victims . . . officers went to an adjacent house, which was occupied by a Latino family. The officers entered the adjacent house and searched it, without a warrant and without the residents’ knowing consent. Although they found no evidence of criminal activity, after the search was over, the officers zip-tied the residents, a Latino man, a legal permanent resident of the United States, and his 12-year-old Latino son, a citizen of the United States, and required them to sit on the sidewalk for more than one hour, along with approximately 10 persons who had been seized from the target house, before being released.”
6. Ignoring Rape: Because of Arpaio’s obsessive focus on “low-level immigration offenses” his officers failed “to adequately respond to reports of sexual violence, including allegations of rape, sexual assault, and sexual abuse of girls.”
7. Widespread Use Of Racial Slurs: “MCSO personnel responsible for prisoners held in MCSO jails routinely direct racial slurs toward Latino prisoners, including calling Latino prisoners ‘paisas,’ ‘wetbacks,’ ‘Mexican bitches,’ ‘fucking Mexicans,’ and ‘stupid Mexicans.’”
8. Widespread Racial Profiling: “[I]n the southwest portion of the County, the study found that Latino drivers are almost four times more likely to be stopped by MCSO officers than non-Latino drivers engaged in similar conduct. . . . In the northwest portion of the County, the study found that Latino drivers are over seven times more likely to be stopped by MCSO officers than non-Latino drivers engaged in similar conduct. . . . Most strikingly, in the northeast portion of the County, the study found that Latino drivers are nearly nine times more likely to be stopped by MCSO officers than non-Latino drivers engaged in similar conduct.”
9. Random, Unlawful Detention Of Latinos: “MCSO officers stopped a car carrying four Latino men, although the car was not violating any traffic laws. The MCSO officers ordered the men out of the car, zip-tied them, and made them sit on the curb for an hour before releasing all of them. The only reason given for the stop was that the men’s car ‘was a little low,’ which is not a criminal or traffic violation.”
Group Punishments For Latinos: “In some instances, when a Latino [Low English Proficiency] prisoner has been unable to understand commands given in English, MCSO detention officers have put an entire area of the jail in lockdown—effectively preventing all the prisoners in that area from accessing a number of privileges because of the Latino LEP prisoner’s inability to understand English, inciting hostility toward the LEP prisoner, and potentially placing MCSO officers and other prisoners in harm’s way.
Yeah Snowman, I guess it is cheaper to run prisons this way.
-- Modified on 2/20/2013 6:17:43 AM
Funny how liberals talk about the rights of criminals but never about the rights of the victims who suffered at their hands. With all this research, did anyone ever bother to see what they were incarcerated for and who they hurt to go to jail in the first place.
My guess is NO!!!
NEWS FLASH!!! JAIL SHOULD SUCK!! JAIL SHOULD BE SOME PLACE SO FRIGGING HORRIBLE YOU NEVER WANT TO GO BACK!!
Sheriff Joe's got it right, just ask the folks in Maricopa, who elected him for a 6TH TERM!!!
Besides #1 dont see where these were prison issues. The courts in Arizona failed as well if these crimes were allowed to happen but it's nothing new and has very little to do with the work camps. Also isnt it the FBI and DOJs responsibility to investigate issues like this?
Just like Pro-abortion vs. Pro-life. Polarizing terms that don't reflect most peoples beliefs.
There are very few people, percentage wise, who want to take all guns away from those who wish to own them. But, the NRA will label anyone who wants to change the gun laws as being anti-gun.