Politics and Religion

Ayn Rand promotes Atheism ( video clip ) :
Priapus53 4974 reads
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Let's hear it from the opposite side of the political spectrum. Her views are just as eloquent & as valid as Marx's.

... would you REALLY want to live in a society run by either's rules?

About as close as you get to Marx is Stalin.

I don't think anything has come close to Rand, but if it ever did, most people would flee. There's a reason Galt's Gulch had few people.

The one-sentence executive summary of what follows is this: be careful what you ask for, you might get it and it won't be what you expected.


... if you are going to accept Rand's thought -- might it not be better to start with something a bit more useful like the total abolition of all federal welfare programs and income taxes?

I am channeling Rand right now, and what she wanted me to say is this: Someone else's "need" does not and ought not constitute a mortgage on my LIFE.

Rand's philosophy, as Marikod has aptly noted, is not a philosophy for the weak, the dependent, the incompetent or the chronically downtrodden. It is a philosophy best suited to those who are strong, independent, highly competent and gifted.

One of the problems with Democracy is it allows a majority of weak and minimally competent dependents to enslave, through the violence of government, those who enable the rest of society to even LIVE. It allows them to bite the hand that feeds them.

Let there be no mistake -- she made it clear that a rational man is a law unto himself. HE is the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong based upon his own rational interpretation of the evidence of his senses. He is his own higher power, and ultimately answerable to none save himself and the laws of cause and effect. He is a man of unbreached self-esteem, invulnerable to the insecurities that make charlatan Freud-wannabes rich. Only an atheist can be thus. But a society full of such men would be a nightmare of epic proportions for liberals who espouse a philosophy of altruistic self-punishment of the best and brightest while systematically sacrificing the strong to the weak.

If you disagree with what I am saying, if your liberal principles find this repellent, why on earth would you cherry-pick one element of her philosophy for advocacy?

John, I know you were just channeling Rand, but I couldn't let this go. :)

I don't think a Randian society would be workable, simply because the group that has self-appointed itself the "winners" would be without "dependents" who allow them to live in such luxury.

Democracy at it's finest is nothing more than a filter for removing bad ideas from public policy. A monarch may be a strong individual, but he might be insane. With a fuctioning democracy, it's difficult to get 51% to agree to insane ideas.

I think there would be far fewer people who are chronically downtrodden, all things being equal so to speak, then if we lived in a different set of economic circumstances. To leads to reason, that in an economic model based upon competition, ultimately you will have very few winners, and a lot of downtrodden. Ultimately, you have one giant monopoly. I'm not of the belief that gov't interference in the market is the only way to achieve such a monopoly. I think genuinely free markets would produce such a monopoly just as easily (perhaps more easily).

If your environment can so deeply affect any given organism that it can evolve into any number of different species given enough time, then logically it seems to me that human beings are deeply affected by their economic environment. People aren't naturally weak and dependent, so much as they are a product of their circumstances. It also stands to reason that if we changed that environment to allow as many weak and dependent people as possible to become strong independent people, that this would be an incredible benefit to everyone over the whole of society.

Competition produces animosity, distrust, hatred, and hostility, and sometimes it produces incredible violence. An society based on competition is what I would call dysfunctional.

I want to distinguish between the status quo in which there is an oligarchy powered predominantly by nepotism and in which merit plays little or no role, and what a Randian society would be like.

Certainly, under the status quo, there are tons of useless, worthless sniveling bastards who live in a lap of luxury quite divorced from the fact that at their best they wouldn't even make good ditch diggers.

51% of people agree to things you would consider stupid ALL THE TIME. Consider, for example, that in every state in which same-sex marriage has been subjected to direct popular vote, the direct popular vote has been to ban, abolish, prohibit, etc. same sex marriage. Now, personally, I don't think marriage and divorce are the proper province of government, so having them "allow" same-sex marriage accords them more authority than they should have. But my point is that 51% of people do things you'd consider stupid all the time. Just go down the list of ballot questions in various states.

The reason why we have so many downtrodden people is because in our conversion to a service economy, we changed from an economy in which someone with an IQ of 85 could provide for a family to an economy in which an IQ of 115 is needed. That's because most people -- even smart ones -- are economic parasites whose benefit comes from reduction of loss rather than production of gain. Hence, the efficiency value equation becomes important and an ever greater proportion of the population essentially becomes economically disenfranchised.

Competition can indeed be a problem, but it is a lot less of a problem in a society with shared values.

Some people are going to win and some are going to lose. The reason I am not an NBA all star is not because I grew up poor, it's because I was born genetically unfit for that role. In that realm, I lose. So I had to find some other niche.

I will grant you that people who grow up poor have serious hurdles in front of them, but if they are hard working, industrious and ingenious -- they will find a way over and around those hurdles. I grew up so poor that I was an adult before I ever possessed a full dollar.

You cannot stand in the way of nature. The extent to which you deny reality is the extent to which you'll ultimately suffer for that denial.




Priapus531151 reads

"One of the problems of Democracy is it allows a majority of weak and minimally competent dependents to enslave, through the violence of government, those who enable the rest of society to even LIVE. It allows them to bite the hand that feeds them"

& : "liberals who espouse a philosophy of altruistic self-punishment of the best and brightest while systematically sacrificing the strong to the weak."

MY, MY------that sounds like QUITE the exercise in "elitist Social Darwinism". Pardon me if I'm wrong, but with your high self-esteem ( which is very commendable & an essential part of mental health ) do you fancy yourself a "Nietzschean Ubermensch" ?

As for "society's weaklings", the only way to "eliminate them" barring a "negative rapture",
would be a extermination/eugenics program that was implemented by little over 70 years ago by--------well, you know who.

Seems to me that being a "religious Libertarian"
has MAJOR contradictions.

Still, JG, you're a great dude-----stick around this forum for awhile----enjoy sparrin' w/ ya----:)

Like DNCPhil, I simply oppose the war on traditional religion by Atheistic proselytes.

I was simply painting you a picture of what a Randian society would be like.

As previously stated, I interpret Nietzsche's idea of a superman as the product of continuous self-overcoming that never ends. To that extent, anyone willing to question his presumed limitations can be the superman. Thus, no extermination program is needed.

Under the status quo, smarter people are generally taxed to pay for the children of dumber people. That's negative eugenics -- dysgenics. Since you already accept eugenics in the form of taxing some people so that they have to limit their offspring in order to fund others to have more, all we'd be debating about is whether that policy should be changed because it is having the predictable effect of giving us a dumber society.

Personally, I'd be happy with a neutral policy where NOBODY is penalized and let the chips fall where they may.

SAC's are waiting for sympathy and  monetary compensation , for the horrors our
ancestors were subjected to.  

Posted By: johngaltnh
Like DNCPhil, I simply oppose the war on traditional religion by Atheistic proselytes.


I was simply painting you a picture of what a Randian society would be like.

As previously stated, I interpret Nietzsche's idea of a superman as the product of continuous self-overcoming that never ends. To that extent, anyone willing to question his presumed limitations can be the superman. Thus, no extermination program is needed.

Under the status quo, smarter people are generally taxed to pay for the children of dumber people. That's negative eugenics -- dysgenics. Since you already accept eugenics in the form of taxing some people so that they have to limit their offspring in order to fund others to have more, all we'd be debating about is whether that policy should be changed because it is having the predictable effect of giving us a dumber society.

Personally, I'd be happy with a neutral policy where NOBODY is penalized and let the chips fall where they may.

Snowman391725 reads

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