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Politics and Religion

Nope, and I have no intention to do so. I will explain why.
dagny.taggart 8659 reads
posted

1. I personally feel no need to beg a bunch of suited and/or uniformed thugs for permission to pursue my happiness however I see fit.

2. I, personally, am not convinced that decriminalizing sex work is going to make it safer.  For anyone.

The pigs have a real hard-on for twisted shit such as:

tasing bedridden old ladies (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/06/25/officers-taser-86yearold-disabled-woman-bed-lawsuit),

tasing pregnant women & 55-year-old grandfathers at baptism celebrations (http://www.pixiq.com/article/grandather-and-pregnant-woman-tasered-at-baptism-party-in-virginia),

macing non-violent protesters in the face (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moD2JnGTToA&feature=youtu.be),

shutting down little girls' lemonade stands (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/ -- and the instances described in this article are NOT the only ones),

beating up the developmentally disabled (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbshMZFLn4U),

and arresting people for daring to feed the homeless (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/us/28homeless.html?pagewanted=all, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072500835.html, http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2011/01/16/the-city-of-houston-puts-a-stop-to-private-charity-its-illegal-to-feed-the-homeless-without-a-permit/)

... among countless other crimes, many of them violent.

The presence of a 'peace officer' (of course, that label no longer really applies to the police) does not make me feel safer -- not ever.  Not even if I am simply taking my child out for lunch.  One should generally be wary of strangers, even moreso if they are running around as part of an utterly unaccountable gang of thugs in uniforms with guns, tasers, and nightsticks.

I would like to say, "please tell me why I can trust these men," but I am convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that NO ONE here or anywhere will be able to offer a sufficiently persuasive argument.  No one can convince me that it is any safer for me to put my life in these mens' hands than it is to simply avoid them to the best of my ability.  No one.

3.  The counter-economy is the path to freedom.  Decriminalization is not.  We will never have a free market so long as we continue kowtowing to the state, begging them on our knees for permission to live our lives.  Not ever.  My actions harm NO ONE.  I bring pleasure to people for a living.  What could be more harmless?  And so I will not get on my knees like a subservient little dog, and beg a bunch of violent criminals who steal my money to kill and cage people, fattening their wallets every step of the way, for permission to continue living my peaceful life.

It is time to consider that perhaps WE DO NOT NEED TO ASK PERMISSION.  It is time to consider that perhaps instead of asking permission from a bunch of soulless goons, we should work towards breaking the shackles encircling our brothers and sisters in the aboveground economy.  The counter-economy is the path to freedom.  Decriminalization is not.

Personally, I'd rather be a part of the underground economy.  Sex work as it stands now provides a shining example of agorism.  To quote the wikipedia page on agorism, "Agorism is a political philosophy founded by Samuel Edward Konkin III that holds as its ultimate goal bringing about a society in which all relations between people are voluntary exchanges – a free market.'"

While I would like to see the federal government collapse, I'm not interested in "smashing the state."  I am interested in building something better.  That is what I am doing through my work.  I love my work, and I love it just the way it is.  I wouldn't change it for the world.  Surely, there are risks; but I honestly and truly do not believe that decriminalization would significantly reduce these risks.

Though you may not agree with me, surely you should be able to respect that, based on my own *personal* value system, I am ethically unable to sign this petition.

But if not, oh well.  I'll still be here to help when the government collapses under its own weight.  :-)

inicky463830 reads

Not only passionate but well written and intellectually consistent.  I was  going to say it really belongs on the P&R Board, but I realize those qualities are an oxymoron there.  I am going to suggest to one of the more radical lefties there, willywonka4u, that he read this.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2112 reads

Which of course means that I disagree with almost all of it.

It might be intellectually consistent, but that doesn't mean it is correct. Can you imagine if every adopted this attitude, not to mention the fact that the rest of us who already pay more than our fair share are forced to pick up the slack and pay even more to make up for these people who use government services, but as part of an underground economy pay nothing into the system.

This is as good an argument to legalize prostitution, just like it is legal in most of the non muslim world as I can think of. An underground economy, whether it be black marketers, prostitutes or drug dealers takes money from each and every one of us who pays taxes, even Willy.

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dagny.taggart1673 reads

...And that is that I want to help YOU break your chains, as well.  I stated that quite clearly in my post.  I don't want to save the counter-economy only for those who engage in acts that are technically illegal; I want EVERYONE to be free.  I don't think that ANYONE should have to pay for permission to work and make money for themselves and/or their families and not be thrown in a cage and have their lives ruined, which is ultimately what you are doing when you pay taxes.  It's bribery legitimized by implicit violence, except that it's not actually legitimate.

For the record, I do actually pay taxes.  I don't like it, but I pay the government their 'protection money' in the hopes that so long as they get their pound of flesh, I will not be put in a cage.  Therefore, your statement that "black marketers, prostitutes or drug dealers" (and btw anything that is illegal is technically part of the black market; anything that is legal but engaged in under government radar is gray market) take money away from "every one of us who pays taxes" is incorrect, at least in my case.  Only black marketeers who choose not to pay taxes take money away from all of us who pay taxes.

However, blaming people who don't pay taxes is, IMO, fallacious.  Blame the people who are stealing your money at metaphorical gunpoint in the first place (that would be none other than the state) -- that's where the blame belongs.

:-)

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dagny.taggart2193 reads

I am not against the decriminalization of sex work so that I can avoid taxes, distasteful as I find them.  I am against the decriminalization of sex work because I feel that sex workers are actually ultimately SAFER human beings when sex work is illegal.

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inicky461867 reads

There are very few women who can hold their own there.  I think you could.  OTOH, that does not mean you'd enjoy it.  Let's put it this way, gambler is one of the more rational people there and half the time he's a complete idiot!  LMAO!  Hell, I'm a complete idiot at least half the time.

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dagny.taggart2015 reads

There's such a bounty of insipidity there that I'm not sure it's worth my time to post, LOL.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2187 reads

she is posting behind an alias you know.

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dagny.taggart2761 reads

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2113 reads

It won't change my opinion of your posts, but I can guarantee you your ass is prettier than most on this board. lol

You still sound like someone who selfishly wants it both ways, and don't have the life experience to back up your claims, but we are all allowed our own POV, no matter how wrong it is. lol

as for being safer, the police are quite well armed in most of the countries I visit. My experiences with LE just happen to differ dramatically from yours. At least they have since I have grown up and stopped having a criminal's viewpoint of LE. You and Willy should get together, he has a similar viewpoint of LE, despite his claims of being some kind of "super prosecutor" when not getting stoned.

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dagny.taggart1724 reads

Claiming that inherent mistrust of strange men with guns is a "criminal's viewpoint" is a straw man!  You have misrepresented my position.  Tsk tsk.  You are brighter than that! :)

First of all, I consider a criminal to be a person who initiates force against others (self-defense doesn't count); so, by my own standards, I'm not a criminal.  Secondly, do a Youtube search for "police brutality."  The police DO perpetrate acts of violence against peaceful people on a daily basis.  This is fact, not fiction.

I can assure you that I want things only one way, for all people; I want people to be free of force.  I simply believe it is possible for people to do this for themselves and each other voluntarily, rather than at gunpoint; and that the federal government itself works contrary to this goal.  That's all.  Believe it or not, I consider my particular radicalism to be radical compassion.  I tried to type a heart, but TER doesn't accept the "less than" character.  So: LESS THAN THREE!

Okay, I actually gotta go. :( The real world beckons and my pretty little ass has a little person to feed.  But this was fun!

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dagny.taggart2513 reads

...Thanks for not deleting this altogether.  I just wish there were some context for it, LOL.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2252 reads

Since I am the GD board moderator I post under an alias that everyone can recognize so my name does not show up in red, which means that my thoughts are my own and I am not posting as a TER mod, but as an individual. Some people are less likely to be candid when "debating" a moderator, and I don't like to stifle open discussion.

Trust me, nothing anyone says to me during a "debate" will ever have the slightest adverse effects on their ability to voice their opinion. I may be an asshole, but I am not a petty or vindictive asshole. lol

I was willing to let the thread stay on GD, but dantananot's remarks about the second amendment pushed in way out of GD discussion territory and made it only suitable for P&R, sorry.

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inicky462311 reads

But yes, I know who she is.  I have my ways, too.  They shall remain mysterious, though you can probably guess.  Anyway, her secret is safe with me.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2192 reads

I disagree completely.

In almost all of the non muslim world prostitution either is legal or at least partially legal, and it seems to work out fine for all parties concerned. While my evidence is largely anecdotal my sample size is quite large. What evidence do you offer that you are safer engaging in a criminal enterprise than you would if you were not committing a crime every time you saw a client?

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ziggy4402268 reads

She is not saying that decriminalizing would not make it safer, so your argument is beside the point. She objects to having to get permission for anything.

Somewhere there is an old quote about certain people being infuriating, unreasonable, demanding, impossible to work with, compromise with or otherwise coexist with, and without such people no change of any real value would ever have occurred.

Dagny, your position is incorrect on almost every level, and if you got your way we would have complete chaos. In most ways, the absoluteness of your position is even self-defeating. On the other hand, I believe that incremental change in the direction you want to go, and incremental change is all you realistically would ever get, could be a good thing. Good luck with your crusade. Here is mine.

As for the petition, I signed it and support decriminalization for selfish and selfless reasons. There are lots of societal benefits that would accrue from decriminalization of a lot of personal behavior, not the least being the cost savings from stopping spending a lot of money trying to prevent people doing things that harm no one, and can't be stopped. I do not expect that to happen - Puritanism is too firmly rooted in our nation, and too much a part of how politicians sell themselves (much easier to present yourself as a champion of virtue and all that is right than to actually take on real, difficult problems and try to solve them), for such a change to happen. But I will keep trying.

zig

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother1641 reads

Her words

"I am not against the decriminalization of sex work so that I can avoid taxes, distasteful as I find them.  I am against the decriminalization of sex work because I feel that sex workers are actually ultimately SAFER human beings when sex work is illegal"

You must have missed that entire post. lol

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dagny.taggart1435 reads

...which is the world's most terrifying agent of chaos.  Just look at the world around you.  All the bombs, all the blood, our rapidly deflating currency, our rapidly ballooning debt, our war on drugs, our war on terrorism; politicians without ethics, for sale to the highest bidder, writing corporate privilege into the law and the tax code; peaceful people being brutalized, killed, or caged, even in the streets of the United States -- for dancing, for being developmentally disabled, for drinking in their own back yard, for growing food in their own back yard, for selling lemonade, for feeding the homeless, for treating their bodies however they wish and harming no one -- sure, for using drugs, but even for drinking certain types of milk.

I simply don't buy the idea that the possibility I propose could possibly be more chaotic than what we already have.  That a minority of sociopathic thugs has claimed it has a legitimate monopoly on violence does not automatically legitimize the violence it perpetrates.

And -- yes, I am, in fact, saying that decriminalization would not make it safer.  I explicitly stated such in my initial post and outlined the reasons why (see point #2 of my initial post).

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dagny.taggart1738 reads

All I need to do to be sufficiently convinced that sex workers would be less safe in a world of decriminalization is look at the rampant violent crimes committed against peaceful people by the government (although the government daren't get their own hands dirty -- they send innocent men & women to kill for them and call it 'national defense') and the police.

Different countries = different cultures.  Who knows?  Maybe in other countries, the pigs aren't a bunch of unaccountable thugs with a helpless addiction to power as self-gratification.  I know that in some other countries, police officers do not routinely carry guns.  This may be a step in the right direction, as it robs them of the temptation to misuse them.

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Timbow1769 reads

Posted By: dagny.taggart
  I know that in some other countries, police officers do not routinely carry guns.  This may be a step in the right direction, as it robs them of the temptation to misuse them.

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dagny.taggart1281 reads

...is that I do not believe that power-thirsty sociopaths who routinely misuse guns ought to be encouraged or given broad license to continue misusing them by being handed a badge that magically 'legitimizes' the violence they perpetrate.

If society at large were permitted to defend ourselves against needless violence initiated against us by the pigs, I might change my mind.

:-)

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Timbow1654 reads

Posted By: dagny.taggart
...is that I do not believe that power-thirsty sociopaths who routinely misuse guns ought to be encouraged or given broad license to continue misusing them by being handed a badge that magically 'legitimizes' the violence they perpetrate.

If society at large were permitted to defend ourselves against needless violence initiated against us by the pigs, I might change my mind.

:-)





-- Modified on 9/28/2011 2:29:34 PM

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HalfHour2357 reads

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dantananot1863 reads

could you say that one more time, that stuff you said?  also, when you pay your taxes, do you also pay a dom to flog the shit out of you for it?  that part was weird.  plus, how 'bout that 2nd amendment, huh?  just trying to make small talk.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2396 reads

Off to P&R it goes. or at least most of it.

We all knew it was going to end up there sooner or later. dantananot just made it sooner

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inicky461399 reads

to the usual food fight.  But thanks so much to dantana-twat for gettin' the job done.  I hope dagney continues to post here.  She would rip a lot of the cro magnons here a new one.  As I said, I don't agree with a lot of what she says, I just love how she says it.  We need a few more articulate anarchists in this world.  As opposed to he-cunts like dannykins.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2048 reads

but she would be a welcome addition, and preferable to the likes of ng,  EM667 et al. oh yeah and dannykins as well.

There was a point in my life when I would have agree with much of what she has to say, amazing what a few years (or decades) of life experience will to for one's POV.

As a successful and contributing member of society who has managed to make quite a nice life for himself starting without a dime, despite everything that is wrong with this country, I have no desire to tear down everything built over two and a half centuries in the misguided hope that we can do better starting all over again from scratch. A few more years of living, and seeing first hand how others in this world live, may change her POV someday as well.

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inicky461981 reads

I don't agree with most of what she said either.  But I respect the consistency of her posts. I think some cops are pigs and most are not.  I think we need them, and our men and women in uniform to protect us from maniacs like OBL, even if our mistakes had a role in creating such monsters.  I do not believe human nature is as benign as dagney seems to.  I am afraid that, in her world, someone as rational, gentle and sexy as she is would be torn limb from limb and feasted on.  Does that mean I take a dim view of humanity?  Yeah,  some of them.  Not all of them.  But enough of them to mean we need the structure of society to protect ourselves from ourselves.  And that is exactly what the Great Argument of our country, and all democracies, is about.  How much government is needed?
What pisses-me-the-fuck-off is the hypocrisy of people who rant for smaller government but demand a government so big it's a police state that tells women they can't have an abortion.  Or wants to cut government spending except when their uninsured house got washed away in a flood and they want a new one.
Etc., etc., etc.

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dagny.taggart1525 reads

But thank you for an interesting discourse!

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inicky461618 reads

OK, sweets, but when you come back please tell us what a "meatspace responsibility" is.  And why do I think you're a vegetarian?  OK, I'll guess you've either:
1) Gone to cook some meat for someone else to eat.
2) Gone to hunt some game (NOT!)
3) Gone to put something into whatever your "meatspace" is.
I hope it is the latter and that it feels dayum good.

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anonymousfun2056 reads

whoever you are. A person after my own heart. You are exactly, we are all fucking slaves, they have enslaved us wihout us knowing it.

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SolaLove1745 reads

While the industry is criminalized we see countless lives destroyed by workers being classified as felony sex offenders (New Orleans), pushed out of their own neighborhoods (prostitution free zones, ex. DC), being branded as criminals in the current system - making it difficult to find legitimate work and housing, and many more offenses that my currently sleep deprived brain cannot even come up with at this time.  Decriminalization, as in the prohibition era, will absolutely reduce the risk of violence in this industry.  Individuals abused by pimps and predators can turn to the legal system without fear of arrest, hopefully resulting in the perpetrators lack of freedom to continue committing their crimes.  The fear of arrest by the victim is one reason WHY prostitutes are often selected for abuses... and I won't even go into the psychological twists and turns and justifications furthered by social dehumanizing of sex workers.  Furthermore decriminalization will help prevent marginalized individuals being pushed into more and more dangerous situations (streetwalkers being able to talk Johns to size them up before getting in a car, or moving from a well lit populated area to a dark and remote location, ex.), as well as enable individuals to do simple safety measures such as working with a friend - without having to worry about a felony charge in doing so.

I agree that our criminal and justice system is a perversion, and that Officer Friendly may be a boot heeled thug.
I choose to believe that most caught up in perpetuating our out of control system, came into the monster with good intentions.  I also choose to believe that every individual voice can make a difference... and yet it takes an awful lot of those voices to make a chorus loud enough to be heard over the grinding of the machine.

Agorism sounds beautiful.
It may be a life to aspire to.
It is not the world we live in today.
Avoiding the world as it is does not change it.
Countless lives are being destroyed, today...

I respect and admire where you are coming from, and that you are blessed as you are to have found work which reflects and supports your ideals.  And, I hope you reconsider this issue from the perspective of the many less fortunate than yourself.

Blessed Be!

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willywonka4u1674 reads

From what I can figure, Miss Taggart is a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist. Not really the same as I am, but as an anarcho-syndicalist, we do come from the same school of thought, and many of those ideas are shared.

The most illuminating thing about this thread is that I will get called every name in the book for saying the things I do, particularly about the police, but if Miss Taggart says something damn near identical, Nicky and GaG will fall all over themselves to compliment her ass.

You guys are funny.

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inicky462338 reads

do your research and find ONE time I have given you shit for calling the police "pigs."  Hint: you won't, because I never have.
Now that's not because I believe cops ARE pigs (some are, most aren't), just that I chose not to jump on you for it.
You are funny.
And you wonder why GaGa calls you a liar?

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willywonka4u1660 reads

I will admit that you haven't given me shit for calling the police anything. But you've given me a lot of shit for holding some views, that as far as I can tell is identical to Miss Taggart.

The difference is that now you're calling me a liar, and you're following Miss Taggart around like a loyal obedient puppy dog.

It's cute, really. It almost makes me wish I was born with a cuter ass. ;)

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inicky462556 reads

First of all, I love it when you call me jesus.  But please capitalize it in the future.  Also, please call me when you get a cuter ass.  Until then, it's nice to know you admit accusing me falsely.  Last time I looked, that's called lying.  So how come on the rare occasion I say it, you get into a snit?  Gambler calls you a liar virtually every day and you eat that shit with a smile.  If you want to accuse me of having given you shit in the past, that's fair.  I'd say you deserved it.  You catch shit from lots of people on this board.  Much less from me than most.  So I'm a bit baffled as to why my small comment has made you so sensitive.  As for "Miss Taggart's" views, first of all I really don't know much about them.  They seemed similar to some of yours, which is exactly why I thought you'd enjoy her rant.  You're the one who then took pains to point out how you differ with them.
PS:  I'd say you'd follow her around, too, if you'd seen the pictures of her ass that I've seen! lol!

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willywonka4u1715 reads

Nah, Nicky. As an atheist, I make a point not to capitalize jesus, or god, or allah, or any other nonsensical word.

A snit?!? I thought I was just giving ya a rib.

GaG and I have a special love/hate relationship. I tell him that I love him like a brother and he tells me the fuck off, lol.

I just thought it was hilarious how you and GaG were falling all over yourselves with this gal. Hell, maybe if my handle had been Prettypussy4u, I could have even gotten Saint to play fetch. jesus, men are so incredibly manipulated by the other sex. It's sad really.

p.s. can you show me pictures of her ass? preety pretty please?!!?!?

:D


-- Modified on 9/29/2011 8:48:34 AM

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2302 reads

She gets no special treatment from me, except maybe that I didn't tell her to "fuck off", aside from that, except from agreeing with Inicky about her ass, I would hardly call my comments "falling all over myself"

and we don't have a love/hate relationship, we have a hate/hate relationship. I just give you a slight amount of credit for posting your absurdities in complete sentence, which is a high a complement as I can give our newest hater of "the pigs"

Oh yeah, the three of us will probably also share a disdain for religion, but that's about all the common ground we will ever have.

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inicky462015 reads

OK on jesus.  I usually lower case god, just because I know it pisses cartman off.  lol.  I had no idea about your "special relationship" with GaGa.  Is he aware of it?  It seems a little sado-masochistic, if you ask me, but if you like catchin', well, who am I to judge.  BTW, I don't think I was "falling all over" myself with dagney and GaG certainly wasn't.  Perhaps you thought so because he wasn't as nasty as usual.
And, no, I cannot show you the pictures of her ass because it would potentially reveal her identity, which I have promised her not to do.  Suffice it to say that Gambler, who can, as he puts it, see behind the curtain, concurs (ass-wise, that is).  And he claims to be a volume-based connoisseur of tail.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother2563 reads

aside from that I disagree with virtually everything she had to say, but at least I can't call HER a liar. She might be deluded, and completely wrong about everything she has posted to date, but she is intellectually honest, and that is a lot more than I can say about you.

and do we have to run off every woman that ever posts here? There are precious few women that post on this board and unfortunately most of them fall into the whack job category. It would be nice to change this place from a "boy club" into something more coed, it might even make the place a bit more civil if we were arguing with people we thought had a "cute ass" lmao

Just for the record, even if you did have a cute ass, You'd still be a fucking liar, just a liar with a cute ass, Maybe we need to put you and Trannyboy together, he might actually like your ass, and give you a bit of "special" treatment too.

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willywonka4u1647 reads

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inicky461664 reads

Reminds me of the old Krazy Kat cartoons.  Krazy Kat (Willy) is in love with Ignatz the mouse (Gambler).  Every time Ignatz beans Krazy Kat in the head with a brick, Krazy Kat thinks he's showing his love.
From now on I will refer to you as Krazy Kat.

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GaGamblerssmarterbrother1544 reads

I would love to show WW just how much love I have to give. lmao

I just reread my responses to Dagny, and could someone please point out where i was "falling all over myself" and will you  please pass me another brick please?

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willywonka4u1640 reads

I think it's most amusing that I threatened GaG's title of King Prick around here so much, that he had to go reread his responses.  

GaG, I love you bro, but whenever you're not busy calling a provider on this board fat or crazy, then that's you falling all over yourself, lol. Kudos, though, you do it with more grace than Nicky does.

I never would have pegged you guys as a regular couple of white knights. This board never ceases to surprise me.  

:)

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inicky461597 reads

Sorry, this is the best I can do.  Please note the heart emanating from poor Willy, er, Krazy when the brick boinks him.

Related Link: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xJeKM2Xq91I/Tii-nViMBaI/AAAAAAAACPQ/3QfN9us7yEg/s1600/krazzee...

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Considerthis1678 reads

So when you get popped for your illegal activity, you child will manage just fine?

So when you or your child needs health care, you will be able to get it?

So you would take advantage of all the benefits taxpayers provide you but not contribute?

So you would rather taxpayers spend millions on enforcing laws that are unebforceable?

So you would rather have battered providers have no recourse but to suufer?

So society would not benefit from the tax revenue generated by prostitution?

So the rule of law is immoral?

The OP is an intellectual fraud and the best example of why decriminalization should be supported.

SIGN THE PETITION NOW!!!

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