as long as they accept Jesus Christ as they personal Savior before they died.

But wait isn't suicide a sin and it sends you to hell? That reminds me the day I posted that question on the humor board the day Robin Williams killed himself and TER refused to post it. That's when I hate this site. So many of my posts have gone unposted. i even left for a while because of that. But anyways...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcNEm1BpokM
posted this because saying other evil politicians might be in heaven cause they repented before dieing is so predictable and boring... i went with the serial killer who said it himself, he had been reborn. So he is in heaven and good people who didn't know about god or "got it wrong" went to hell.  

 

Ok I'll post the mandatory pic:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5_W4hf4vdqg/Um10mSISlQI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/OvlaHYI4CBs/s1600/1hitler.jp

Laffy, why are you so unbelievably angry when it comes to religion?

I don't believe in the stuff myself either (I'm a monistic atheist if you care to put a label on me, it seems that you're a fan of such things), but if people want to believe in a book, why do you care so much? Can't you let people live their lives and just focus on what's important to you? I just don't get it.  

In the same way that these people aren't going to convert you to Christianity, do you really think you're going to convert anyone to atheism/agnosticism/whatever if you spew enough vitriol in their direction? Do you honestly think the time and effort you expend doing this is actually worthwhile?

Please explain to me who is trying to ram anything down your throat. I have never had any encounter with a member of any religion you could care to name, whose stated goal was effectively recruitment, that I have been unable to rebuff by simply using the words 'no thank you'. Obviously I haven't lived your life so I can't comment, but I find it hard to believe that the same wouldn't be true for you - whether it's a preacher in the street, a Jehovah's Witness at your door or even your local politician of note on the campaign trail. Who are these people that are aggressively trying to recruit you, specifically? I'm really, really not buying it.

As for it getting taught in schools, so the fuck what? I was taught about Christianity extensively during my time at school. I looked on it then as I do now - education, not indoctrination. Admittedly the curriculum may be very different where I went to school than the US, but the focus was less on what amounted to story telling and more of the morality and ethics that the bible espouses - none of which were at all egregious or offensive, unless somehow the idea that you should treat people with the same respect you expect to receive is offensive to you? I still don't understand your position here, you seem to be (endlessly) railing against a threat that doesn't exist, even in the slightest. Do you honestly think anyone would want you as part of their religion?

Foolishly I expected a reasonable response eventually. I probably should have known better.

So what if 'thumpers' (what a stupid term, by the way) want what they want? How in the great big blue fuck does that affect you in any way, shape or form, as someone who screams on high without provocation or reason to do so, that you think their religion is bullshit? Wanting something doesn't mean they'll get it.

You can keep your hypothetical arguments about what 'the gays' might or might not do. All I've been trying to get from you this entire time is an example of an actual case where an actual person is doing these heinous things you keep screaming at the top of your lungs about. I'm still waiting for as much. All you've done is just spew vitriol and utter bullshit you parade as fact, with nothing to back it up as such - not even from personal experience, never mind any kind of reliable source whatsoever.

You missed the point entirely regarding education. I'd make my point again, but seeing as though you ignored it the first time I don't see how you won't ignore it a second. Maybe your education should have included some lessons on comprehension. Newsflash; education is not about memorising formulae or historical dates, but instead preparing children for life as adults. Whether you agree with Christianity or not, as I said before, you cannot make an argument that the values that the bible teaches are offensive.  

Just because presidential candidates 'need America to follow the bible more' in your words doesn't mean they have the means to enforce that. What the fuck is that sentence? Please tell me how any presidential candidate you name is going to somehow mandate that you follow the bible more.  

Who are these people that 'openly admit we need WW3'? Grow the fuck up, take off your tinfoil hat and enter the real world.

I'm done talking to you, I can feel myself losing IQ points by proxy even having this conversation with you. If you feel like having a reasonable discussion sometime (I doubt it though) then I'm all ears. In the meantime, keep your prejudices to yourself.

f their victims
after cutting off their head

While I can't answer for someone else, I can speak for myself. First of all, you're arguing from an illogical position that if you allow a group to have complete dominance nothing could possibly go wrong because they would never bring to reality the ideals they espouse. If there's one thing we know for sure about the human race it's the truthfulness of the old cliche that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." If theocracy became a reality in this country you can't possibly tell me with a straight face that it wouldn't end badly for us all. I get what you're saying about hypotheticals and wanting something being different than getting it, etc. However, they're not getting absolute power because people are standing in their way. Whether or not Laffy is too extreme in his views I don't know because I haven't been around here long enough, nor will I bother searching the forums to read his past comments; however, from what I can see he is part of the reason why we aren't in any real danger of a theocracy currently.

Personally, I don't think we're politically in danger of having the real extremists having any kind of power, anytime soon. But it's the equally fearful, provocative, extremists on the other side who are the first line of defense, not the passive, "C'est la vie," "Que Sera, Sera," people who see no future threat because there is no current threat. I'll give you another cliche before moving on:
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller

You said "Please tell me how any presidential candidate you name is going to somehow mandate that you follow the bible more." Of course that's not going to happen as such, but that's an oversimplification of the situation. Such a thing does not happen overnight, but rather in small incremental steps. Hitler didn't wake up morning, drink his coffee, and declare war of the rest of Europe and Africa. First he became the leader of the Nazi party, then came the Beer Hall Putsch (leading to an economic devastation of Germany), then Mein Kampf, then the Nazis gain power, then Hitler is elected chancellor, then The Reichstag burns, thus allowing Hitler to increase his power under the pretext of protecting the nation,  then the Enabling Act is passed and Hitler now has dictatorial power, then start the boycotts of Jewish shops, then the burning of books, Dachau opens, the Nazis make themselves the only political party, Germany leaves the League of Nations, a few more events (death and murder), Hitler becomes Fuhrer, then comes military conscription, he strips Jews of their rights, and so on. All buildings are built one brick at a time.

As for how the religious majority has affected us personally I'm going through something right now which is a good example of the results of these small steps. My daughter is attending a public school where Christian dogma and ideals roam freely. Evolution is openly mocked in science class, creationism is covertly taught in its place, prayer events are a regular occurrence with roll-call and repercussions for those who don't attend, and bullying has become a serious concern for us now because it has escalated to physical violence that is not being punished because their intentions are righteous (the school's official stance). Right now I have legal recourse (which I'm utilizing), but give them these little victories and pretty soon there will be no such thing.

Also, "Who are these people that 'openly admit we need WW3'? Grow the fuck up, take off your tinfoil hat and enter the real world." I'm afraid this is not "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theory nonsense. Check out HBO's "Vice: Armageddon Now."
I don't have a link to the full episode for free, only the "debrief" which barely scratches the surface. Again, these people are not a serious threat to us now (though their money is contributing to some serious problems in that region), but if their efforts increase one brick at a time through small victories and a passive populace, they could soon pose a real danger.

Lastly, "Whether you agree with Christianity or not, as I said before, you cannot make an argument that the values that the bible teaches are offensive."

 
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests(Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches(Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)(Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery(Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication(Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets(Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath(Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill Brats
(2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious  (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killing the Good Samaritan (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners(Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
(Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill(Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing  (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death(Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai(Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho(Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family(1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death(2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions(Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Of course most (nearly all) Christians today reject most of those passages, but you didn't ask for examples of offensive Christian values, you asked for examples of offensive biblical morality.

Thank you for a reasoned response. Genuinely appreciated.

Of course if a true theocracy came to be that would be problematic, but the odds of such a thing happening in the US are so slim as to be negligible. I can't imagine a scenario under which this would happen, short of every political candidate in the country becoming a religious zealot overnight. It's more than likely I'm missing something far more obvious here - forgive me, as a foreigner we don't get taught fully how the US government is structured; because why would we?

While I understand the analogy to Hitler, I'm not certain it would necessarily apply in this case - while it would take a brick by brick approach as you mention, the steps along the way that would need to occur for a true theocracy to come to be don't seem possible given the current methods under which the US is run. Barring a few executive orders, aren't all the steps you mentioned ones that (hypothetically speaking, had they taken place in the US rather than Germany) would have required a democratic vote to enact?  

The part you mention about your daughter is exceptionally troubling. Ignoring the bullying aspect for one second (which is not to diminish it even slightly, please don't get me wrong), the idea that creationism should be taught in a science class renders me struggling to find words. I'm... disgusted? Offended? Teaching it as part of a religious studies class would be one thing, but to present it as fact is truly abhorrent. You genuinely have my sympathy and I sincerely hope that your legal efforts bear fruit. I would love to hear an update on your progress in this regard, if you wouldn't mind sharing when the time is right. Please do not feel obligated to do so, obviously.

As for the bible being taught in schools, I would find it hard to believe that even the most overbearing and zealous of schools would teach the passages you mentioned, but obviously that's not the point of your mentioning them. My reference to morality and ethics in regards to Christianity should have been that, rather than mentioning the bible specifically. That's not to say that there aren't Christians out there who would take every single word as gospel (ho ho, ha ha, pun time), but I would suspect they are very, very much in the minority; or those that would warp the religion itself for their own needs (your Westboro Baptist Churches of the world, for example).

All in all, your post has merit and I do not wish to discredit it slightly; please do not take anything I have said to this point as doing so. It's a pleasure to be able to actually discuss something on this board, rather than bicker back and forth. My stance on Laffy's attitude towards this whole thing will remain unchanged though - he would quite happily have everyone believe that he cannot step outside without being accosted by a stranger demanding that he become clergy, that the church is out to ruin his life, his country and his planet, and frankly that's not something I see or have seen, I hear or have heard, nor do I see anything at all to suggest it's even remotely imminent. Would love to hear further from you.

I completely agree with your first paragraph. I was using worst case scenario hyperbolically to illustrate my point. As I mentioned, I have no fear of such a thing happening in the US, barring some bizarre concurrence of catastrophic events. It's unlikely, but not impossible. My realistic worst case scenario is president who is more religiously zealous than the voters realize while he presides over a senate and congress which is politically aligned to him/her so as to allow passage of laws that would end up either being challenged in court, or overturned under another president. Essentially it would be a temporary set back much like the under-funding of stem cell research under George W. Bush.  

By the way, I too am a foreigner of sorts. Though born American, it was abroad where I also spent my youth. Like you (if I understood you correctly) I attended a school where the bible was taught (in religion class) as historical fact. Aside from evolution, which I didn't ever know about until college, I didn't lack in scientific education. I too survived without any serious impact.  

I also agree with your second paragraph, though I think my first paragraph covers why so I don't need to reiterate the reason why we are in agreement.

As for my daughter, I'd go into more detail, but the more I divulge the more I expose my identity on this site. Eventually our case will make the news, I'm sure, but most likely it won't get much traction in any popular outlets. That is, of course, unless things escalate further, but the school year is almost over and we're moving her to another school so she doesn't have to deal with any more of this.  

I figured you meant Christian morality, not biblical, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to be a bit of a smart ass by posting that list Not that Christian morality doesn't have it's shortcomings, but I'd say the majority of Christians are moving in a direction that is less accepting of past biases. Sure there are some "religious exemption" laws in some states, allowing for a free pass to discriminate as long as it's under the guise of their religious faith, and there are people like that duck guy (Phil Roberson?) telling wishful stories of atheists' daughters being raped and murdered, and there's the W.B.C., the KKK, and others like that, but they are in the minority and largely laughed at and dismissed by most other Christians.

Don't worry about me misperceiving your post, your point came across clearly.

Thanks for another reasoned reply. If only the rest of the board could follow your lead.

I wasn't ever taught the bible as fact, per se, but neither was it taught as fiction. We were actively encouraged to draw our conclusions in regards to the legitimacy of everything, but the parts that were taught as fact were those that I feel are just generally lessons that everyone should learn - how you should treat your fellow human beings, that material worth is not the definition of a person, that sort of thing. Life lessons taught as fact, using the bible as a mechanism to illustrate those lessons with no thought given to whether said book was fact or fiction. We could just as easily have been taught the same lessons using episodes of Star Trek The Next Generation, and I say this without meaning to denigrate either pieces of fiction. We were taught evolution as (currently, until/unless science proves differently, as is the way of science throughout history) incontrovertible fact I want to say as early as age 11, if not prior to that. I could be mistaken but my understanding is that in state schools now where I'm from, it's actually not permitted to teach creationism as fact.

I totally understand the situation regarding your legal pursuits and I won't press further. I do however wish both you and your family the best in that regard and for your daughter's new school.

And yes, I know you were just being a smart ass, but I felt it necessary to clarify my original point - I reread it and I didn't make myself clear. That was solely on me, not you, but thank you anyway.

But for me, being a Christian means focusing on two things, and two things only:

* Love God.  
* Love others as you love yourself.  

And if you want to make it even simpler, Paul narrowed it down to loving others.  

I don't see how living according to those principles can be a threat to anyone. You don't harm those you love.

-- Modified on 4/30/2015 10:15:35 AM