In the early 70's, I was working in my cousin's Century City offices learning the money trade. My cousin, a Wall Street "wunderkind" at the age of 22, showed me a nifty little trick.
Over the course of an hour, he bought, sold, and played the margin with large blocks of Mattel stock. He caused the stock price to vary by a full point over the course of an hour. Playing with $1,000,000 worth of stocks, he manipulated the market into rising andfalling with his transactions. He made almost $100,000 that way. and it was just a lesson for me. This was in the early 70's. I can't even begin to imagine the extent of manipulation going on in todays market with the level of sophisticated computing and the depth of greed and depravity of the people. Insider trading is just part of it.
Day traders are detritus when it comes to the stock market. But one individual with the financial gravitas and market savvy can cause major upheaval by doing nothing more than what the system was designed to do.
Which is why I completely disregard the Dow Jones as a barometer of how well our country is doing. It tells us how well the already well to do are doing. It doesn't say shit about the hard working garage mechanic in Sioux Falls South Dakota trying to decide between new shoes for his daughter, or a new crescent wrench for his work because he doesn't have enough for both.
And there are alot more hard working mechanics in this country than there are millionaire market mavens.
Yeah it was our fault, because we trusted the assholes.
We could take a lesson from the Chinese, who have survived one hell of a lot longer than us - catch somebody violating a public trust, you shoot them. No drama, just a .22 in back of the head at the local stadium. Very instructive half-time show, I think.
instead of getting stuck with Turdbrain and his Blossom?
A surge upward won't mean anything to anyone who isn't in the game, but crash and burn can might have a lot of collateral damage.
the economy in the form of start-ups and small companies. And as I have pointed out previously, most people are employed by small cos.... In addition, upturns also usually mean that the economy is somewhat healthy... if sustained over a period of time... which also translates into JOBS.
Upticks also mean a lot to those with 401k's, insurance or anyone who works for a publically traded company...
Simplistic analysis of any trend is likley to be troublesome... including my own, however, it is untrue to say that upticks mean nothing to folks not in the game..... That is the type of simplistic rhetoric I've come to expect from Z.
Trickle down economics is simply the undertaxed wealthy pissing on the overtaxed poor and middle class. Haven't you learned anything post-reagan?
Really - anybody stop to think why those multinationals are doing so well? Why does their value climb even in poor economic times here? Well, here's one example of how selling out America has profited them.
Take Intel. They have a plant in the UK valued at $1b in June. Next quarterl;y report comes out and their value is up, in part because that same plant (which exists in an economy based on the pound sterling) is now worth $1.2b, not because of intrinsic value, but because the dollar is 20% lower against the pound.
It goes on and on, with the 'robust gains of the economy' as touted by the robber barons in our administration coming at the expense of the working class.
Because I'm pretty sure Karl Marx is dead. How's he doing there on the other side? That catchy "robber barons" phrase worked real well for him. I love that.
Speaking of simplistic rhetoric, so an up market is now a bad thing?
When there are hurricanes - that is due to global warming... but then when we have quieter hurricane seasons... that too is due to global warming...
If you are a lib - EVERYTHING supports your cause. the "robber barons" phrase that was just cute... is Kennedy a Robber Baron or Bootlegger... I forget which his family came from.... hit my head on a rock at Smuggler's Notch coming down that trail.... ouch.... still hurts.
...butyou sure did good this time bro
BTW - while I have your attention, find a way to be in Las Vegas the weekend of December 7-9. Same for the rest of you politically inclined hobbyists.
-- Modified on 10/3/2007 3:01:28 PM
No, the market going up isn't a bad thing. What is a bad thing is the signifcance that many people attach to it and how simplistic their views are about the economy. (Like trickle down economonics)
You almost had me there for a second.
So we are left only with Puck's simplistic retort to a perfectly logical and economically sound post by Bizzaro. Hmmm. That was easy.
-- Modified on 10/3/2007 7:21:51 PM
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=51265&boardID=39&page=1
I suppose insider trading, market manipulation, that sort of shit isn't something you consider artificial.
But I can't seem to find in your reference material any mention of "insider trading" or "market manipulation"...Surely you are not suggesting that the Fed lowering interest rates somehow "artificially" inflates the market. Nothing artificial about lower interest rates- that is a very real event for not only the stock markets but the housing industry, financial industry, consumers, bonds, etc. And with very REAL consequences across the board...
Perhaps you have another example you'd like to share? You know, one that might actually be relevant?
No, Bizarro made a logical argument, and qualified his by stating that any 'simple' logic is dangerous or something like that. I was responding to your idiotic response that seemed to be saying that everyone other than Bizarro was saying the market going up is "bad thing now."
Nobody was saying that. They were saying it's an indicator that can't be the sole determination of someone's opinion about the status of the economy. There are other factors, and people like you reduce it to a some small factor and if it works on your side of the argument, than you win! It's ridiculous.
I have no problem with Bizarro's post at all. Just your simplistic answers that rely upon useless rhetoric like implying that everyone else thinks the market going up is a bad thing.
Silly me. You see, I thought that whole rant about trickle down economics was somehow tied to Bizarro's post, thus my QUERY on the up market being a bad thing. I guess I need to stop reading what is actually written and start trying to read other's minds....problem with that is, I don't get the whole channeling thing. But others here seem to be pretty good at it- got any tips?
-- Modified on 10/3/2007 5:49:24 PM
Are you being a moron on purpose? I hope so.
First, I don't know what you mean by "I guess I need to stop reading what you actually write" since all I wrote was:
"No, the market going up isn't a bad thing. What is a bad thing is the signifcance that many people attach to it and how simplistic their views are about the economy. (Like trickle down economonics)"
But, if that counts as a long rant in you're mind, so be it. I'm assuming you meant what Puck wrote, but with your reading skills clearly lacking it's difficult to say.
Second, it's disingenuous to say that Puck was implying the market going up is bad. It's a simple, childish response to a post. He stated that the market going up is somewhat illusory. I'm still at a loss to find where someone said the market going up is "bad." This is same stupid, trite responses I hear on conservative radio all the time.
I'm against the Iraq war...."You don't support the troops."
The market going up doesn't necessarily reflect a healthy economy for everyone....."So the market going up is bad!!!!"
Etc, etc, etc.....
Puckster's headline was: "Simplistic rhetoric? Then you espouse Tricke-Down?" This is posted in response to Bizarro.
He queries about trickle down based on nothing in bizarro's post. I query him using his own literary device...It's a simple debating technique used in every high school/college debate 101 class. But I keep forgetting, simple comcepts on this board are hard for a few here to grasp. Sorry, I'll try to take it up a notch next time. You guys are way too smart for me...
And my apology for the you reference. As you so aptly noted, I was responding to Puck. I modified the wording to reflect that.
It has been noted repeatedly that there has been far less of a connection in recent years to a rising stock market and better employment.
For 401k's, its not the daily or yearly rise you're looking at, it's the trend over decades. For 401k's, you should be more concerned about the value of the dollar, and of course, inflation.
In other words, if you're not in on it, day-to-day what you should look for are crashes. Breaking a record one day doesn't mean much.
9th grade English.
Did I allege a connection, or give you a laundry list of possibilities?
Are you suggesting that people, and agencies, and GOP mobs, cannot fuck with the market?
Just asking.
But seriously, can you possibly believe that what's good for Halliburton is necessarily good for you? Just how do you benefit from the export of jobs? And again, do you really believe in supply-side economics?? A healthy economy can only be demand based, not supply. Teh number of cars in a dealership does nobody any good if people can't afford to buy them. Theat takes wages, not venture capital.
Um - would you say that "Upswings usually mean more money to investors to plow back into
the economy in the form of start-ups and small companies. And as I have pointed out previously, most people are employed by small cos.... In addition, upturns also usually mean that the economy is somewhat healthy... if sustained over a period of time... which also translates into JOBS." has nothing to do with trickle-down econ? Seems like a textbook definition to me.
You post was one sentence- "I suppose insider trading, market manipulation, that sort of shit isn't something you consider artificial" and link to an article about lowerering interest rates to positively impact the economy. Looks like a short laundry list to me with a link to nowhere close to your supposition.
I kind of thought that links following one sentence proclamations are usually related- I guess we're back to that channeling thing again.
Since when did Haliburton break into the Dow thirty? Haliburton is not even an oil company, they are basically an oil service company, not even a tenth as large as GE(an actual dow componet). Or are you claiming that Cheney manipulates GE and the rest of the Dow also?
Always scared always looking out for the bad things to come like you are hoping for them ..You and Z should become roomies and maybe you could go on double dates with other miserable people waiting for the World to end.
i date providers because i already know the world is coming to an end.
If we're all going to get screwed anyway, may as well go for the nut.
If Hillary gets elected, the next time I go to South America, I may just stay there, well for four years at least.
No, it's a textbook definition of market economics 101.
If you ask me, a herd is a better comparison to the conformist who's stupidly optimistic.
The ability to think ahead and plan is something quite apart from sheep. Unfortunately, I can't look ahead right now and see much good for this country. Hence the pessimism.
I think escapist optimism has ruined this country. Especially in recent years as its partisans became belligerently defensive, calling people defeatist or even traitors for not showing total satisfaction as our country unravels; we're ruining the dream with mere facts.
When the news is bad, pessimism is psychologically healthy. Going into a catastrophe smiling is no better than going into a catastrophe.