Sometimes, especially at the end of some of these political threads, we hear completely bizarre stuff, and cuz it is at the end of the thread, most don’t read, and some don’t bother to respond.
Recently, someone started with:
Arabs want to kill Jews, Christians, Americans, etc., all in the name of Islam.
30% of Palestinians are actually Christians! Furthermore, George Habash, head of the most radical and leftist Palestinian terrorist group, and for those of you with a little knowledge of history, know he pioneered Airliner hijacking. Yes, indeed he was Christian, and recently died.
All sides in the Middle East are guilty, we should be careful about rendering judgements before doing our homework.
For those of you who read Islamic books, and develop reservations, I suggest start reading the old testament as well.
Shimon Peres said it best, a few years ago, in an interview. He said in a few years, many nations and countries will have nuclear weapons, we MUST start thinking about other methods of settling our differences than war.
It makes me sick to read these racist stupid postings, either from anti-semites, or anti-muslims. I have done business across the middle east, from Israel, to Iran, and the countries in between, and have found no one has monopoly on decency and humanity.
because of his religion, for example.
I think a big reason for prejudice is fear.
Another reason is laziness - it's more work to see each person as an individual.
I would agree that no side in the Middle East conflict has a monopoly on decency and humanity, but my posting was certainly not "racist and stupid," and far from "bizarre." Anti-semitism is on the rise around the world, and its height is in Arab countries. That is a fact. Israel has tried for years to talk to the Arabs about peace, and only got terrorism and ridicule as a result. Indeed, under Clinton's auspices, Israel offered to the Arabs much of what they wanted, and in return Arafat responded with the infitada. Now Israel has become much more hardline (not enough in my opinion), and until the Arabs make a MEANINGFUL gesture toward peace, nothing will happen. Israel is a little country that just wants to live peacefully. Do they not have that right? Is this bizarre, racist or stupid? Perhaps you ought to choose your words more wisely.
Perhaps you are set in your views, in which case you will respond with some sort of rant. If that is the case, enjoy yourself, but don't expect any response from me. My feelings on this subject are quite obvious. I've said all I'm going to say, as I have better things to do with my time. The podium is now yours.
I would respond to some of the points you raised at some point in the future ... but here are worrisom thoughts:
1] Indeed, antisemitism in on the rise in Europe, in its some of the most ugliest forms. So is anti-Islamic feelings of course. And then, you should see some of the articles in major papers over there outright insulting to the US. As an American, my blood comes to a boiling point when I read some of those. I have no intention of taking any international travel any time soon, just can't take these kind of assaults any more.
2] My understanding has been that Arafat consulted with Mobarak, and Saudi's King. They did NOT offer support for peace under those terms. It would have been impossible for Arafat to accept the terms without the support of a major Arab leaders. Now, mind you, these are supposedly our Arab friends
For the most part I appreciate peoples points of views that have been posted. I can understand the Chiefs point of view and also that of our Californian friend (myself from Sacto.). What bothers me so much is how easily an entire people would seemingly be done away with if some would have their way.
As stated, no one has a monopoly on decency in the Middle East or in the World. The US by no means has clean hands. Every group has a reason to hate every other group. Living in the US we live with the ``bravery of being out of range'' (only the Japanese and terrorists have invaded the US). Most of us have not walked in these peoples shoes. I know I sure as hell haven't. I agree that terrorist (we have our own) are evil and deserve a medieval type death - however I also know that not all of Islam are terrorists. IMHO the Catholic church has done far worse.
I certainly hope there can be peace in the Middle East. I'm sure there are those there (and here) so filled with hate that they want Wars - However every child wants peace. And until we can learn to live together we are in danger of going the way of the Dinosaur.
Sorry to ramble.
Best wishes,
L
Although George Habash identified himself as a Christian, his actions of terrorism were and are widely condemned by Christian laity and clergy. There are no Christian sects promoting terrorism. This is simply not the case with Islam.
I deal daily with several Muslims, count many as friends and yes they do condemn terrorists acts, but immediately follow with some "rationalization" for it. When Timothy McVey, a self described Christian, committed his atrocity, he was universally condemned by both Christian laity and Clergy without reservation. When abortion clinics have been bombed by self described Christians, they have met with the same response from the Christian Church again without reservation, even those within the "Fundamental" movement in the Christian Church condemn such acts of violence.
It seems to me, and its only my opinion, that the message of Islam is confused at best. When you have document (the Koran) that supposedly spells out the tenants of the Islamic Faith, how can those who claim to adhere to it be so dramatically different in their world views? Does the Koran actually teach virtues that are in harmony with the rest of the world or not?
To me Arafat's rejection of virtually everything that he asked for is very telling, peace is not the goal, the elimination of Israel is.
Please don't get mad cause I'm just writing what I've read in several mainstream papers.
3 years ago, Israel offered Arafat 95% of what they asked for-95%. Arafat rejected it because he wants every Jew dead and started the terror campaign. Palestinian schools teach that Jews are offspring from monkeys and pigs and deserve nothing but a painful death. That's not me-that's what Islam teachers teach their kids in school and in their mosques all over the moslem world.
I knew a nice moslem guy at work and he said that Islam has to undergo a reformation to bring it into the 21st century. Catholics stopped putting people to the rack and burning them at the stake 500 years ago.
Ask any Moslem if Israel has a right to exist. What you get is unbelievable. They will hem and haw and not answer the question.
Could you tell me how many pastors and leaders condemned Billy Graham's antisemitic comments caught on Nixon tapes? Can you find the ugly comments on your own, or do you need help?
Why don't you think the Arab terrorism has more to do with extreme nationalism, and less with religion? Certainly Talmud, Old Testament, and New Testament have quite radical thoughts if you search. Would you like me to give you specifics?
Did you actually know that Arabs are also descendents of Abraham? Yes, young man, Abraham had two sons, Itzhak and Ishmael. Ishmael is the father of the Arabs, Itzhak, the jews.
Did you know that Islam, along with Chrsitianity and Judaism, are all of the same root?
How widespread did our Christian community condemned Hitler? Have you heard of Father Coughlin? Can you document a broadbased condemnation of those Aryan churches in Idaho by our communities?
Let's blame people for what they do, not relegions.
-- Modified on 4/9/2004 11:03:59 PM
I am amazed at how closely the dress codes for very orthodox Jewish and Muslim women match. Also, the dietary standards have many basic similarities. And as you pointed out Jewish people and Palestinian people are biblical/koranic cousins.
One of the major sources of conflict between Jewish people and Palestinians has been the actions of outsiders. The Egyptians, Jordanians, Romans, European Crusaders, Colonial and post-WW2 British and the United States have to some extent taken sides and played Jews against Palestinians for some motive that was important to the outsiders but not in the best long-term interests of either Jews or Palestians. Probaly the best thing that can not happen is for outsiders, including the US, to allow Israeli Jews and Palestians to resolve their conflict on their own. There will be more bloodshed for sure, but Israel is too modern and too powerful for the Palestinians to wipe out Jews, regardless of how hard Palestinian radicals try. Most Israelis care about their place in human society, so any attempt by a politician or politicians to wipe out Palestinians will be rejected by the majority of Israeli society. After the fighting stops, both side will be able to sit down and work out a meaningful agreement of coexistence that will incorporate their, and ONLY, their needs.
Since Billy Graham condemned himself for uttering those remarks, it really wasn't necessary for anyone else to.
Furthermore, Graham's remarks, thirty years ago did not result in the death of any Jews. Nixon in fact came to the aid of Israel. Actions speak far more than words!
It would seem that you consider words as extreme an act as killing, which is why you and I will never agree.
Other than Jews and Arabs having a root ancestor, Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common with Islam, As far as the Old & New Testament's having radical thoughts, even though the Pentatuch's was given to Jews for that period of time, not for the world at large (i.e. kosher laws, stoning for adultry, etc), I think I would challenge you to come up with some radical "thoughts"!
You might notice however before you tax your brain that Jews are not enforcing those "radical" laws ("Radical Thoughts") on anyone, either Jew or Gentile.
Many Christians, lay and Clergy stood up to Hitler, and they met the same fate as many of the Jews - death. Admittedly the Roman Catholic Church leadership was mainly silent, but quite a few Priests were slaughtered by Hitler as were many Lutheran Clergy.
I would be the last one to condone those Aryan Churches in Idaho, I too think they are wacko's. However, other than a few flareups with law enforcement (which could have been easily avoided, not unlike Waco) those people are off by themselves, bothering nobody!
They are not busy committing terrorist acts.
If you read the Koran, (admittedly I have not read it cover to cover, but have read at least two thirds of it) it does call for violence against non-believers (Infidels). Actually after I have read it all, and do not convert to Islam, it calls for my murder. So for those of you who "have issues" with hate speech, you might educating yourself on their teaching.
Could you tell me how many pastors and leaders condemned Billy Graham's ant
Could you tell me how many pastors and leaders condemned Billy Graham's ant
I think that's the much better question.
... When the church isn't separated from the state, both always seem to lose. There is always plenty of blame to go around when we talk about relations between nations. We are better off when religioins keep their hands clean and work to make it better. This isn't happening in the middle east.
when religions devolve from the hard taks of changing people to the easy solution of changing society, they pervert themselves and mutate into something evil.