...in reality this protection is basically meaningless in our universe. We all play the "what if" game in our heads if ever confronted by LE. The truth is 98% of us would wilt under the pressure of LE questioning within 5 minutes. They don't need a search warrant on your phone...they already have your dumb ass showing up at the appointed time with a wad of cash, a big boner and an e-mail/text/recording of you agreeing to exchange cash for nookie!
In today's world, all LE really needs is your name and address and they can find out all sorts of things about you: Where you work; who your family/friends are; what church/organizations you belong to; etc. At the end of the day, most hobbyists are more concerned about the wife/kids or their place of employment finding out about their attempted tryst vs. any actual legal entanglements they may encounter (which for a garden variety, first time bust for solicitation is pretty mild). LE knows this and if they feel you're stonewalling them they'll simply google you, find out your wife's name or manager's name and threaten to out you....at which point, most guys shrivel up and will voluntarily hand their phone to LE. So unless you're involved in something more heavy, this ruling (while important) is really a non-factor for most hobbyists/providers who are caught up in LE's net. I am only saying this so people do not drop their guard; same rules still apply. Gotta do your homeworkI saw this, too. For once I'm impressed with the entire Court, as it was a unanimous ruling.
Makes sense, though. A smartphone contains intimate personal information valuable enough for criminals to try to steal; it should be treated by LE not as a personal effect, but more like a mobile safe.
Good on the court, for once.
While this decision is great for your attorney:p It has very little real world implications outside of the courtroom. If the LE says, "Give me your purse and cell phone." You hand over the phone to LE and the LE thinks you consented. No expectation of privacy anymore. If you say no, the LE has to get the signing judge for the county on the phone and another LE arrives with the warrant. In the metro this is no big deal for LE. If limited LE are available, the LE might give you a pass.
I would be very surprised if LE has not already put out a memo about how to avoid having to get a warrant.
I am a little surprised LE wanted the west coast website to be shutdown. It would make more sense to track the activity on the sites instead of trying to get a fix on individualized websites. It is easy to find a provider's website. The West Coast Should be happy LE has to figure out another way to track hobbyists and providers. Hobbyist and providers inevitably find each other
So what does this all mean! If you do not already use cloud secure email and voicemail, think about it. The email and voicemail are not part of the phone. You are no safer with the decision and must do your due diligence in screening.
Providers and hobbyists need to watch out for each other without regard to changes in the law. The LEs mission when getting a phone is to get the information on the phone to get information on others, not just you! Nothing about the decision protects the others from being pursued.
Anyone else notice the law firm ads on BP? Horrible, wrong, horrible
...to questioning and I will not consent to allow the contents of my cell phone be examined. Is there compelling evidence that my cell phone data (all inclusive) has so much information relative to my arrest that a judge feels it necessary to seize this property from me? I think this is what the court is saying, just because a guy has a cell phone on him and you suspect he might be involved in a crime doesn't give LE the right to confiscate it from him unless there's an obvious and imminent threat to the public that his device and it's contents could be harmful. It's like, just because you arrest me for reckless driving doesn't mean you have the right to search my house. I think that's what the SCOTUS is saying is that using data from our phones against us is like forcing us to testify us against ourselves, and that is unconstitutional.
As far as the West Coast stuff; remember that prostitution is not a Federal crime. The Feds have no interest in tracking who might be paying others for sex. If the owners of the site are guilty of anything it's for not paying their taxes properly. How stupid if that's what's really happened here. Just pay your fucking taxes on the money you make and everybody, but the taxpayer, is happy. Realize that Al Capone was never convicted of murder but, rather, tax evasion.
Saying you won't consent should not give much comfort. The SCOTUS is not the LE that does the investigation, puts you in jail or looks at the data. If you say you don't consent, the LE is likely to book you anyway. You get to the jail for processing and LE will take your phone. You don't get your cell in jail. What then happens if the LE takes your cell and looks at the data for the purpose of finding out about providers or other hobbyists? SCOTUS ignored this issue. Nothing protects the others because a person does not have the expectation of privacy on someone else's cell. The LE then proceeds against the others which could cut a deal to testify against you. I also would not forget about a potential RICO action being thrown into the mix. Attorneys love that little allegation in a prosecution. Do you get to toss out the initial charge, maybe. If LE already has enough to convict outside of the cell data, the conviction still takes place. Preventative measures are always the best method.
The best solution is to do everything possible to minimize the risk. Why not leave the cell in the car out of plain sight or lock the cell up when it is not needed? Save as much hobby activities on the removable sim card and remove it when not needed. Store information in the cloud, instead of the phone. Don't forget the obvious that everyone needs to do due diligence in screening. SCOTUS does create a new defense in court which is applaudible. Once LE looks in the cell, you just can't ask LE to forget about it.
We have to look out for the people that make our hobby possible, other hobbyists and ourselves. Be safe, be smart and carry on.
By the way, the West Coast becomes a federal case because of the RICO claim.
...to do so denies them any claim that they had implied permission and any info they obtain, absent a search warrant is inadmissable. OK, so they find phone records that show I phoned or texted PollyProvider or that I communicated with HarryHobbyist. What does that prove? Nothing. I'm not sure why you think this could be an issue. And while a text or an email may contain incriminating evidence, LE would need tons and tons and tons more evidence to even consider charging me or my fellow communicants with prostitution; the DA would laugh at a prosecutor who tried to bring charges against me based on this . I agree that the smartest thing to do on an incall is to leave your cell in your car. That would be hard for most of us since we can hardly be parted from our phones but, I rarely do incalls anyway.
I realize the Feds case against the unnamed review site can be cause for RICO charges because of possible unpaid taxes or the possibility that they may have unknowingly abetted some other activities prohibited by Federal law (which prostitution among adults is not prohibited) but I'm at a loss to see how the Feds could make a case against an individual hobbyist or provider. I recall the Eliot Spitzer case where the Feds took no action at all against him, even tho it looked like to us regular folks that his ass was grass. It's perfectly legal to post messages on a bulletin board discussion site.
Plenty of cases have been tossed out of court because evidence was collected in violation of the 4th amendment from a doctrine known as the "Fruit of the poisonous tree." So, while saying you don't consent may not do you any good right then and there, it might pay off in the long run. There is certainly no reason to make it easier for LE to persecute us. And I don't know that judges would hand out warrants as easily as you say. After all, abuse of that authority can get a judge into trouble as well. Also, search warrants can be given for email and cloud accounts as well.
But for the most part I agree with you. This decision is nothing that should make any of less diligent in how we approach hobbying or escorting. It's simply one more thing we can use to defend ourselves if you do have legal problems.
Disclaimer: I am neither a lawyer nor do I play one on TV
tsk tsk tsk
I know I am dense sometimes, but wtf are you tsking about?
Good news that they cant check your cellphone without a warrant,,
Bad news is they are targeting review sites ....
Tsk tsk tsk ,, is will it stop with or will it start to negatively impact other review sites...
Shutting down a regional site that was a major player in the west coast markets is a pretty big deal.
sorry Thumper now I know what you meant, TER didnt post the link ,,
There is some big news happening out of San Fran due to the FBI and IRS shutting down one of the big advert review sites that was regional there.. and the link cant be posted on TER because of guidelines..
The phone thing is cool but in the same day the government just cooked up new and improved ways of going after review sites like siting Money laundering and the promotion of illegal activities which could be a cause for concern for other review sites
Particularly if they weren't paying their taxes. As far as the site goes, it is yet another reason why hosting such a site in the US is a bad idea. TER and P411 wisely are not based in this country.
If you google it you can find the article where it has the actual indictment paperwork .. and the guy was transferring deposits of 90k+ or more from the business account to his personal account ..
Its a huge shit storm in the West Coast community right now and providers scrambling to find alt adverts since TER wasnt very big there ..
Of course that doesn't mean they won't be able to get a warrant and then look through it. I also wonder if the police could seize the phone while they are waiting for the warrant.
...a search warrant issuance. Nor can they seize your bank accounts. It wouldn't make sense that they could seize your phone while waiting for a judge's warrant.
Our new mantra:
Officer, with all due respect, I've given you my full name and I've provided you my government issued ID, I don't consent to any further questioning. I don't consent to you searching my cell phone and I insist that you return it to my custody immediately. Am I free to go or am I under arrest?
Might want to add to place all hobby contacts on your SD card and just remove the SD card if you feel they may come and confiscate the phone on a search warrant.
I don't know if it's possible to save some on the SD card, and some on the phone or SIM card itself.
Also, may want to sync your info to a private email address and delete that email from the phone if you think something is up.
I wonder if there is a way to save these things remotely so you never have to worry that it's on your phone. A search warrant would only be for the phone itself, you'd think the email accounts would be separate...of course you'd have to keep them password protected at all times and make you logon each time you go there....again, I'm not sure if that's possible because in order to access the email and contacts saved on the email, you'd have to sync...so maybe add the account, sync contacts, delete the account, and do this on a regular basis. So if LE gets your phone, they don't even know said email exists. Voila!
...a thousand different escorts doesn't mean shit, because it's not illegal to text or email escorts. They just have to find one call, text or email to the specific escort they're investigating trying to link the two of us to try and strengthen their case that we did, indeed, exchange money for sex within the State of Minnesota. I would never admit to that.
...in reality this protection is basically meaningless in our universe. We all play the "what if" game in our heads if ever confronted by LE. The truth is 98% of us would wilt under the pressure of LE questioning within 5 minutes. They don't need a search warrant on your phone...they already have your dumb ass showing up at the appointed time with a wad of cash, a big boner and an e-mail/text/recording of you agreeing to exchange cash for nookie!
In today's world, all LE really needs is your name and address and they can find out all sorts of things about you: Where you work; who your family/friends are; what church/organizations you belong to; etc.
At the end of the day, most hobbyists are more concerned about the wife/kids or their place of employment finding out about their attempted tryst vs. any actual legal entanglements they may encounter (which for a garden variety, first time bust for solicitation is pretty mild). LE knows this and if they feel you're stonewalling them they'll simply google you, find out your wife's name or manager's name and threaten to out you....at which point, most guys shrivel up and will voluntarily hand their phone to LE.
So unless you're involved in something more heavy, this ruling (while important) is really a non-factor for most hobbyists/providers who are caught up in LE's net.
I am only saying this so people do not drop their guard; same rules still apply. Gotta do your homework
WDW,
I like what you say.
It reminds me why I am grateful for TER and P411! There is no need to talk about rates, services via text or email or phone, all the info is on the website and the email and text can be used for none other than setting an appointment and getting an address and the rest is discreet.
When clients ask for rates or details I shake my head... and ask them to read the TER page and even if they are not VIP they can click on my P411 link and see that info without a membership.
And also thanks Drumsticks for celebrating the fact that we won such a victory! Private life might have more hope to survive than we were suspecting and we'll have to make more gains than this and this new warrant requirement is a huge win. Cheers to our bounty of a private sexy sensual life that is none of anyone else's business
I agree it's a huge, long-overdue reassertion of the 4th Amendment, which has been trampled endlessly lately.
But here's the thing. In the very same CNN article, the DOJ admits that they are actively working on plans to circumvent the ruling.
"We will assist our agents in determining when [an] applicable exception to the warrant requirement will permit them to search the phone immediately without a warrant," Canale said
You can bet attempts to justify searching without a warrant will be challenged in court. There's no guarantee the DOJ will be that successful.
Unfortunately, that means there has to be test cases. A lot of people will have to have been railroaded and sent to prison for unreasonable searches until one of their cases finally makes it to the supreme court.
There was a case in Texas about 10 years ago where the prosecutor dropped charges against a woman because the ACLU was prepared to take the case to the supreme court.
The prosecutor admitted in his press conference that he was dropping the charges because the law, which he knew would not be upheld, cannot be struck down unless a conviction made under the law was appealed. He actually kept the law on the books by only convicting people unlikely to have the means to appeal.