If YOU suspect trouble, a trap, entrapment or LE, what do YOU do? You GET OUT, ASAP, and do everything in a way to avoid incriminating yourself. The "LE check" does not protect you! Just get out.
You do not ask for the money, demand the money, ask for a cancellation fee, make threats (to someone you now think might be LE) ... "Well, officer, if you'd just give me my $700 I'll be going now."
It seems to me that they were there to rob the guy. Pure and simple, regardless of what questions he asked.
I am in Chicago. On Friday I ordered up an out-call to my apartment. The service provider arrived an hour and a half late. I got the sense that I was about to get ripped off so I asked her some tough questions about the upcoming session before I gave my donation. Specifically, I asked her to list her restrictions, which she refused to do. I told her that she could be straight-up with me or she could go home. She said she was going home, but demanded a cancellation fee. I pointed out that she was the one who was cancelling, but agreed to give her $40 for a cab.
The provider then refused to leave my apartment. Eventually, I started shepherding her to the door. She told me to stop touching her, and I pointed out that she was now trespassing, and that I could throw her out if I wanted to. She then called her pimp. I got her to leave my apartment, using the $40 as bait. I locked the door and started tidying up.
A few minutes later there was some loud banging at my door. I debated my options and decided to go with opening the door and confronting the pimp with reason. Obviously a mistake. The pimp immediately punched me in the head and pushed his way into the apartment and started demanding that I pay the full $700 for a two hour session. I refused and said that she got a $40 dollar cancellation fee and that all I was paying. The pimp hit me several more times before I started to scream for help. Although none of my neighbors responded to my cries of help, the pimp and the provider did turn tail and leave.
I have visible bruises to my face which are going to be difficult to explain at work tomorrow.
I am wondering about my legal options at this point. I have clearly been assaulted. The pimp clearly trespassed into my apartment, and tried to extort monies from me. But is it worth my time to go to the police? Also, am I guilty of any crime in having a service provider visit me and then me deciding to send her away? Will I get charged if I go to the police?
p.s. I also posted this request to the general board
long story short--if you can recover without difficulty, do so and forget the whole thing and lighten up on your fucking in house. There is a dark side to this game when you start dealing with people you don't know. Most girls have a way of getting even even if they are pimp-less. however you do want to avoid the pimped ones. Yes you can go to the police and get started with the whole criminal scene, you will have to identify the pimp, they have to find him, you will have to pick him out of a lineup, you will have to testify in court, you will probably be paid visits by the pimp on bail or by his family members who will beat you much worse than the first time (you better be armed now although they can hit you from behind when you leave) and so on. The girl can be charged as an accessory as well. If you want to take on all of this bad shit, be my guest, but it probably is not worth it.
One brief note, your shepherding amounted to an assault and as you invited her in, so your claim of trespass is questionable. You were obviously trying to one-up the gal with your legal knowledge but that backfired! She probably told "pimper" that you beat her up.Once you contract with a girl it is best to go through with it unless you fear an extra problem, as you did. I don't know what you planned to do with this girl, but fearing that the john is a vice cop, most gals do not like to get into particulars before the session starts, although some excepts are noted. As for how to explain you facial bruises, just say you were mugged, weren't you? You don't need much imagination for that.
I know a guy years back who had the same experience and he found the pimp on a back street and shot him in the head. He felt great after the killing but this type of self remedy is also not a good idea. You may think it beats the problems in the first case of circumstances but you might end up in jail for life with all the pimps buds.
As for your crime in dealing with the whore (we will not call her an escort) the cops probably would not care, but you never look good in court with dirty hands even if your cock is clean. In my vast experience, sometimes it is better to loose some money and leave every one happy, probably a hundred or two in hand would have saved the day and the beating. And never open the door to an angry violent pimp! What were you thinking? Obviously you are not invincible, you have all my sympathy but you need a reality check. That is not how you deal with violent people unless you are experienced in these things, which you obviously are not. Anyway, now that you have had this experience with the dark side, by this I mean the violent criminals out there; I am sure you have learned a lesson worth more than seven hundred dollars. If I have not sounded sympathetic enough, believe me I feel sorry for you and what you have gone though and these comments are meant to save you another terrible incident. You might consider a review detailing what happened so as to warn others, but that may involve additional risk, maybe do that after you move to a new location. How much info did you give the agency? Oh yes, probably don't use them again!
-- Modified on 1/16/2012 9:32:18 AM
Thanks for the comments Legal_Beagle; they're very useful.
Let me ask for clarification on one matter. You wrote:
After she refused several requests to leave, I began to shepherd her to the door. You wrote that this amounts to assault. I am confused. It is my home. I've asked her to leave, I've given her ample time to leave. She has refused. Can I not now throw her out?
Or are you saying because I invited her in at some point, that she has free reign to stay in my house indefinitely?
Or am I supposed to call the police every time somebody refuses to leave?
I think of bars, and bars regularly throw people out who refuse to leave, people who were initially invited. Why would it be different for my home?
I don't understand your point here, thanks.
And thanks for all of your other omments.
Well my friend, your question ideals with a technicality about what crimes were committed.
On your part, you cannot forcible evict a person you have invited in without facing a potential charge of assault and or battery. Assault consists of creating fear in a person that you are going to touch them, touch ranges from contact with one hair to reducing them to a bloody pulp. When you shepherded them to the door, you pushed them against their will, that is the touching and she could have then charged you with an assault and battery. The fact that you invited her in makes it hard to claim a trespass. A trespass is usual defined as an un-permitted entry, there are often elements of violence and danger; failure to leave on command is a questionable case of trespass and more a civil question than s criminal one. Sure, bouncers use their stomachs to push people out the door of clubs, but this is still assault and battery but it rarely goes to court. My friend, a lot of illegal shit never gets into courts.
To avoid problems you should have called the police and told them to come to your home to remove a trespasser or more accurately an invited guest who would not leave. Note that when a woman is pushed out the door by a man the law assumes that the larger stronger person is the aggressor, not always the case but that is the way most courts look at such situations and the larger stronger person better have good evidence that his action was justified. An old man who attacks a young strong man and then claims the young man attacked him is often believed even though his claim is false. In this case you were not in fear of violence from her continued presence and she neither attacked you or destroyed your property, or was anything more than an annoying fixture. Therefore, when you pushed her out the door you assaulted her and committed a battery. This is a two-step action but certain jurisdictions have made it one, as it is hard to commit the battery without the element of assault. (Ask yourself, what would Jeffrey Daumer have done in the same circumstances?)
All of us have had second thoughts on filling a vagina that on inspection did not seem as seductive as when we first met it in a bar or on a dark street corner. However it is good manners to carry through with the fuck and sometimes we are surprised that what on second though seemed a bad idea, was still rather pleasing when seen after ejaculation. Who was it that said, “Never change (w)horses in the middle of a stream?” I don’t recall but it is not a good idea as you found out.
On your part, you cannot forcible evict a person you have invited in without facing a potential charge of assault and or battery. ... To avoid problems you should have called the police and told them to come to your home to remove a trespasser or more accurately an invited guest who would not leave. Note that when a woman is pushed out the door by a man the law assumes that the larger stronger person is the aggressor, not always the case but that is the way most courts look at such situations and the larger stronger person better have good evidence that his action was justified. ... In this case you were not in fear of violence from her continued presence and she neither attacked you or destroyed your property, or was anything more than an annoying fixture. Therefore, when you pushed her out the door you assaulted her and committed a battery. This is a two-step action but certain jurisdictions have made it one, as it is hard to commit the battery without the element of assault.
I also accept your explanation of trespass and how my having invited Courtney in makes it more complicated to determine whether she is trespassing if I later decide that she should leave. Calling the police was likely the right move at that point. I'll remember that.
On the other hand, between my efforts to shepherd Courtney out of my apartment and my baiting her to exit, Courtney called her friend and told him to come up to my apartment, and then she put him on speakerphone so that I could hear him threatening me that he was going to hurt me once he arrived. Courtney of course, was trying to remain in my apartment so that she could open the door for her "friend" once he arrived. From what you have written, I assume that it would be entirely legal for me to now forcibly remove Courtney from my apartment, given that she had asked her "Friend" to come up and hurt me as I am in fear of violence.
Very interesting, I appreciate the knowledge that you have shared with me.
but do you really want to?
The legal system is rather complicated is sometimes I believe that "justice system" is a misnomer.
While I seriously doubt that you will be charged for solicitation, there is absolutely nothing to stop her from charging you with assault as well, and please don't fool yourself into believing that you have the "truth on your side". People lie all the time and to believe that a lying thieving tag team of whore and pimp won't lie on the stand is delusional.
You already admitted to making some serious mistakes, not the least of which was opening the door in the first place. I would think long and hard about compounding your errors into something you might not be able to "undo"
My sympathies, and I would also advise you to stick with well reviewed, "pimpless" providers in the future
I've been reading TER Boards.
And I've read some pretty good ones in that time too.
I have to ask but I'm sure the answer is no, but anyways, did she have any reviews on TER?
Check with TER if this is a reviewable meeting. She was there for a while, money exchanged hands and you did have physical contact with her. (To say nothing of the pimp, but I don't think this will count as a three-some for review purposes.)
As for calling LE on the pimp, I wouldn't do it. This guy is a violent type, and who knows what he'll be capable of in the future. As far as the bruises go, just say you got jumped on while leaving a bar, and let it go at that.
And, in the future, if you do feel the need to open the door to a pimp who is pounding on the door, be sure there is at least a nine-iron resting near the door.
Sorry this happened, but I hope you learn and enjoy the hobby again.
and as always: (still not a lawyer)
Man, that is some cold S--T. You just supplied the number one reason not to see new dates at your home. Things could go wrong and boy did they. One a positive note, you are alive and will recover physically. I would be a little worried because the pimp now knows where you live. I would be extra vigilant and careful about your comings and goings for a few weeks. If I were in your shoes I would get a legally obtained weapon and learn how to use it. You never know when you need one. As I always say: it is better to have a weapon and never have to use it than need a weapon and not have one available. Personally, I prefer a 20 Ga. pump shotgun, one with a pistol grip and short, but legal barrel length for personal protection in my home. Shotguns have several advantages over handguns including the fact that shotguns do not require "good" aim. Plus they scare the shit out of someone when you stick it in their face and "pump" the round in the chamber. Also, it helps if you curse a lot while you are doing this (based on personal experience). I have several strategically placed around my home and hidden in out buildings. Of course, this suggestion is only my opinion. The laws about defending yourself or using lethal force in such a case vary from state to state, so learn the laws that apply to using a weapon in self defense. Also, do not get a weapon if you are not comfortable with the idea, or are not willing to use it when needed. Best of luck in the future.
Because if you shoot someone, there's a better chance you'll go to jail than the guy who broke in your house. There are a lot of laws covering this, or course, but if you have ANY means of escape, whatsoever, and you shoot an intruder, you will probably be prosecuted.
This means that if someone breaks into your house at 3:00 AM and you wake up and he's in your bedroom, if you shoot him rather than throw yourself through the bedroom window, you could be prosecuted. As absurd as that sounds, there are guys in prison for doing just that.
In my case, just the mere mention of a gun got nine police vehicles sent to surround my house. I can't begin to imagine what would have happened to me if there had been an actual gun. I probably would have been shot and killed in my driveway because that's what cops in California do now any time a gun is believed to be present.
Before TER, I got robbed and had a run-in with a similar type of thug driver working for an agency. The agency sent a girl to my house and she did the usual cash-and-dash routine. She only took one step inside my door, and we never discussed anything, nor did I touch her. But the minute she got the money, the driver came screaming around the corner in his car and she literally ran out the door and jumped in. Start to finish, it was about 60 seconds.
I didn't know all the names and phone number these criminals were using, but it turned out this agency had burned me several times before. One time, they even got me twice in one day (again, pre-TER). On this particular day, I reached my limit. The driver went the wrong way down a dead end and I ran out and stopped them from driving away. I was able to get most of my money back- about $300 of the $400 I gave them. I thought that was the end of it.
Then, I went inside my house and the phone was ringing. Some lunatic was leaving messages, screaming about how he was going to fuck me up with the cops and how he was going to ruin my life. He was obviously high on some sort of drug so I ignored him. He kept calling and said he was going to tell the cops I held up his driver at gun point and threatened to kill them both. Again, I ignored him. But I was also getting equally nervous and fed-up with his shit, and I deleted the messages (clearly a mistake in retrospect).
Then about 15 minutes later, 9 police cars and motorcycles surrounded my house and I was arrested and charged with all sorts of ridiculous, but very serious, things. The cops had a field day and the fact that these guys came to my house to rob me didn't even factor in. And the fact that none of the things I was charged with happened didn't matter. Being a criminal, the pimp knew exactly what to say, and he made good on his promise to "fuck me up with the cops."
I had no choice but to hire a top defense attorney and she put her private investigator to work (a former cop). Our investigation revealed that both the girl and the driver had criminal records (this is who you're dealing with when you call the phone number of a cash and dash agency).
The PI also found and interviewed quite a few girls that worked for this psycho previously and they told him of all sorts of unsavory things he did to both customers and girls that didn't do what he wanted. Even though he was an internet pimp, threats, beatings, broken bones, were all still part of his job description. Actually, he hired ex-cons to do the dirty work, but if it's your arm that's being broken, that's probably just a technicality.
Our investigation took a big circle back to where we started, however, when we found out that this agency also had cops in three cities on the payroll. In fact, several of the girls we interviewed said they had been sent to work parties to entertain and have sex with cops. Not only was this agency operating with the cop's full knowledge and tacit approval, the agency owner (aka pimp) was getting the police laid gratis.
At that point, our legal strategy changed to minimize the damage to my life. As Legal_Beagle said, sometimes you have to put quotations marks around "justice" because after you've seen the system in action, your meaning of the word will never be the same. The bottom line is I did what everyone who is accused of something has to do- make a decision if it's worth it to fight. This had gone already on for 6 months, and I had already spent $25,000 (this was back in the mid-90's, BTW). My attorney said if this went to trial, it would cost me a multiple of that amount, easily $75,000.
So I did something I swore I'd never do- I pleaded guilty to something that never happened. My attorney had many meetings with the judge, who was smart enough to know about the cash and dash scam, but the D.A. wasn't going to drop the charges. They wanted someone's ass to pad their win/loss statistics, so they wouldn't drop the case. But we did get it lowered to a misdemeanor. Not only was my clean record now gone, so was my belief in the justice system, or that cops were the good guys. I now know better.
So before you make any decisions, look at the high price I paid for calling the wrong phone number- over $25k to the lawyer, fines and community service (the equivalent of about 6 weeks full time work) to the court, and I was now viewed as a criminal in my upper-middle class neighborhood, which resulted in me eventually selling my dream home I'd owned for 12 years.
And had I not been self-employed, I would have been fired because of the amount of time I needed to resolve all of this. As it was, I just lost several months of income because my life was turned upside down and I wasn't in control of it, making it impossible for me to get new clients.
And let me just remind you- nobody was touched, or hit, or threatened in my case. There was no gun, there was no anything. But this is what happens when you cross paths with criminals and let them in your life.
As bad as you feel now, anything you do from this point forward will just add to your loses, IMO. Guys like you and me naturally think in terms of right and wrong, guilt and innocence. But these are quaint notions to attorneys that have lived in the "justice" system. They will tell you the cold, hard facts that define that reality. At some point, you'll have to make a decision like I did. When that time comes, you have to seriously think about the ramifications of going forward versus licking your wounds and just getting on with your life.
Oh, I almost forgot the best part- my accusers never once had to show up in court! I never even knew their names. They blew off EVERY hearing, but the DA refused to drop the case. The judge talked about issuing a bench warrant, but never did. All that mattered was the DA had a piece of meat (my ass), and was going to make sure I got convicted of something. So this pimp knew exactly how the system worked, even if I didn't, and meant it when he said he'd fuck up my life. He did exactly that.
If you decide to go forward with this matter, just remember, it's going to be two against one and they driver and girl will be well rehearsed in the fiction they that is their testimony. Their story won't resemble anything like what happened, but it's what you'll have to deal with.
They'll say you grabbed the girl in a threatening manner and she feared for her life. She'll say that when she told you she wasn't a prostitute, you went into a rage and were so angry she thought she was going to be raped or beaten. The driver will say you attacked him when he came to the aid of the girl, and he had no choice but to defend himself so that he and the poor girl could escape with her life.
If you think I'm kidding, I could let you read the police report I had to deal with- it was pure fiction. And just remember, if you pursue it, you're probably going to work within the framework of the law, whereas they'll have no problem coming to your apartment or jumping you in the parking lot long before it ever goes to court. Remember, you're dealing with criminals and you've now stepped over into their world.
I'm not an attorney, but even if you don't press charges, you might want to file a report to go on record as to what happened. One thing I learned the hard way is if you do pursue it, the first person to call the cops has the high ground because the plaintiff has the DA doing the work for you, whereas the defendant is paying for attorneys.
Just to clarify a point in my previous post- when I said I didn't even know the names of my accusers, I meant when I was being accused. Obviously, this information was eventually made available to my attorney at a later date, even though they never showed up at any of the hearings.
I am no lawyer, but you are asking if you are guilty of any crime in having a service provider visit you and then you send her away. I would say NO. You asked about what you can expect in the upcoming session, and you got no answers. Technically, you didn't even get to a point where you were even having a conversation about sex. Nor did you pay money for sex. In fact, the money you gave her was to compensate her for getting the hell out of your house.
I know somebody who was mugged and beaten so badly, he suffered severe brain damage and is now permanently disabled. This happened in an affluent area, not a ghetto. The cops never found the criminals who did this. That being said, if you were beaten and you only have bruises, then consider yourself lucky this time.
Lastly, I am in agreement with some of the other people here that say that it would probably cause more problems if you called the police. The pimp knows who you are, and where you live, and that is the problem. Besides, you are in Chicago, if you want justice served, don't call the police, call the mafia.
a provider... turned out to be a law school grad about to take the bar exam... was assaulted & injured. She called the Police. Her name was splashed across the papers. I don't know if she was charged based on her own statements, but was certainly threatened with it. After working her way through school, her admission to the bar was called into question... never heard the outcome. As far as I know, the perp was not found. So her reporting it was for naught.
Now as to your case, you opened the door (he walked through it) one could argue inviting the pimp into your home. What were you thinking? If violence occured, you are in much better position if they broke in. I am a gun owner. But you should not take a firearm or illegal drugs to an appointment... which is an illegal transaction... that can make a legal firearm illegal. Additionally, you can not plead self defense if you set up the situation & participated in the escalation knowing you had a firearm. Some courts might decide that you were looking for an excuse to kill someone. There's an ex-cop in our state pen for murder who had a chance to leave he door closed... (Recently lost his appeal, too.)
Sometimes you have to use good tactics & who is "right" does not matter.
Second mistake was opening the door for someone who was essentially trying to break in to your house. That was a good time to call 911 and say there is a thug trying to break in yo your house.
Third was committing $700 for two hours to a provider you don't know. That is what TER is for!
You can still go to the police and give a statement but it is unlikely they will actually pursue the thugs. It would have been different if you had called the cops right away. Technically you did not commit any crime and the soliciting a prostitute they might have against you is puny compared to aggravated battery.
I hope you are OK. I also definitely think you should report the issue to the police regardless of if you suffered injuries that required medical attention. Another issue is the pimp knows where you live, he also knows you have money and he might come back.
You should retain your own attorney and consult with him/her about your rights under the law. They will advise you about whether reporting it is a good idea or not and if so, advise you on the best way to go about it.
That way, you're not taking legal advice from a bunch of people on the internet
think how having your story in the Police blotter or News will look. Thanks to G2 for the real world legal costs of having to defend yourself.
Yes, specialk, you are guilty of a crime, be it even if only misdemeanor solicitation for prostitution... you claim you didn't solicit a known prostitute & they'll add making a false statement to Police. They will twist anything you say, unless you show up with a lawyer (which will cost you).
The assault bit can swing both ways & that's a felony. You didn't hit her. But if said pimp beats the crap out of her & they swear you did it... you're left trying to prove you did not.
At this point, you got out alive & even kept most of your money. It would be nice to file a report in case they come back but I don't know if it can be done safely. I would count yourself extreemly lucky & be super vigilant in case the perp or a buddy comes back. Check your homeowners for vandalism coverage... might be a good time to up coverage, install dead bolts reinforce door frames, add security features. Moving would not be out of the question.
thank you for all of your comments. They're not very encouraging, but I appreciate the honesty.
I also posted to the Chicago boards, where a more expansive discussion broke out, if you are interested.
1. see providers with more reviews
2. do not ask indiscreet questions - if you did that to me I would punch you out myself! DISCRETION!!! Read the newbie board please!!!!
3. do not let a pimp in your home - call 911 right away!
BE SAFE AND READ THE NEWBIE BOARD!
For now you can go to a Macy's and ask the girls at the counter to put some make up on your face. You can always say it was a bar fight. If you go to the cops say it was a "date and her jealous brother" or whatever don't say a hooker and her pimp. I doubt they will find them and punish them but if you have witnsses like neighbors that may help.
i would rather have the ability to run than be where i can be found. We do need to remember that what we are doing is illegal and those on the other side of the door are willing to go further most of the time. My addvice is post so others know about her, then drop it, but keep a baseball bat handy in the future.
In Utah if you cancel with a provider your not obligated to give
them anything. If they want a cancellation fee, its a civil issue,
They must take you to court to get it.
Call the Police immediately and get testimony down on paper,
that will ensure he doesn't do it again. That will scare him more
than anything else.
If you still have bruises get photos taken. LE is not going
to believe their testimony over yours. Ushering her out
the door shouldn't be illegal. But use the word ushered
don't say push or forced. Ask your neighbors if they
heard anything. Get their accounts, if they heard you.
I had a similar thing happen to me years ago, I cancelled
and her driver demanded the money and I said no, she hit
me in the head with her purse, (she must of had rocks in there)
I called and got a case number, but I didn't go down to the station
to sign anything or look at pictures of her, so it never went to court
but it is still a police file which can be brought up by me later if I want.
You did nothing illegal, nothing to be ashamed of.
I'd have a can of pepper spray on me everywhere I went for the next few weeks, until you are sure the pimp or friends won't be returning.
Also, I would not post a ROB review about the incident, as that may provoke the pimp into a return visit. Let it go for now, and learn from your mistakes.
So I've been looking to find legal council in this matter. My initial efforts have lead to dead ends. I am pursuing a third lead, but I am not hopeful. I was wondering if someone could recommend to me a Chicago lawyer who is experienced in these matters (experienced in the hobbyist lifestyle at the least) whom I might be able to contact.
There isn't a competent attorney anywhere who would take your case. Any attorney worth retaining would strongly advise you to chalk this up to experience and let it go. There is virtually no chance of things going well for you if you pursue this and every chance of you ending up in a much worse position.
any other of the responses that have yet to express concern about well-being and that she obviously has an abusive Pimp?
Think about it.... we all must do what's right for others.