Politics and Religion

Snow, we have had gains.
nuguy461252 reads

heard so many times from the lefties, it isn't the O's fault, Congress is the problem.

using that logic, in 2006, Congress changed to Dem House and Senate leadership. Remained until 2010 election cycle.

Downturn hit 2007.....so who is to blame? (for example, the demmies legislated banks had to provide loans to those that could not pay the mortgage...wanted to expand home ownership...we all know what happened).

Bird and Fortune - Subprime Crisis - YouTube


Subprime Banking Mess

Part 1/2 Bird & fortune - Financial crisis - Silly Money, Nov 08
Part 2/2 Bird & fortune - Financial crisis - Silly Money, Nov 08

...but it's obvious whose fault it is.

Some people created this mess, others failed to prevent it.

irregardless of who you wanna tag with blame, what lit the fuse to this mess was when subprime paper was allowed to be securitized in the late 90's. Your chart bears this out.

When lenders were allowed to pawn off the shitty paper into MBS's subprime lending exploded. IOW, they did'nt care they were writing shit, they knew they would'nt have to eat it, so WTF?

With the FED keeping interest low and traditional lending standards flushed down the toilet, we got what we got.

GaGambler130 reads

Just like with most of your nonsensical charts, this one makes no sense. Surely you aren't claiming that we are presently in a "boom" are you?

and let's face it, as far as the bubble was concerned, both parties, and both Clinton and Bush have plenty of blame to share as no one wanted the reality that the economy was running out of steam to happen on their watch, and that the so called housing boom was the only thing sustaining our economy for well over a decade.

As much as I hate to feed a troll, much less agree with one. The OP has a point, the housing bubble has it's roots in the "affirmative action for home ownership" that was sponsored by the Dems under Clinton well before Bush and the GOP took over. They of course where just as guilty for exacerbating an already festering sore, just like Obama is guilty of taking a bad economy, not of his own making and seemingly doing everything in his power to make it even worse.

If OTOH you are saying that some people (The dems) created this mess, and others (The GOP) failed to prevent it, that might be a fairly accurate statement, but the GOP under Bush not only failed to prevent it, but made it much worse and were unable to kick the can down the road and have it collapse under someone else's watch.

...it ends in 2006.

Buggy, subprime loans didn't cause this mess. The sub-prime bubble didn't develop until the later part of the housing bubble. The sub-prime bubble was 1.3 trillion in value. Lost residential home values totaled 6.8 trillion.

The GOP Congress enacted legislation that deregulated financial markets. Clinton signed it. This gutted Glass-Steagall, and the rest is history.  

So the Dems who voted for the bill and Clinton get the blame for that. But the Republicans, who controlled Congress at the time, got the bill passed, and it was the GOP and Bush who did nothing while the bubble kept expanding.

So yeh, there's plenty of blame to go around on this one.

But it's pretty damn fucktarded to blame the Dems who took office in 2007 for a mess that had been festering for the previous 8 years.

GaGambler144 reads

That's my way of saying that I don't really disagree with what you just said.

I reiterate that the size of the bubble was created by "kicking the can down the road" Just like SS, no one wants face hard realities during "their watch"

Would you agree, that if the bubble had not burst during Bushes watch and that if Obama had inherited a bubble "ready to burst" rather than one that had already burst, that he would have continued the same policies that created the mess in the first place in an attempt to not having to tell the American people the cold hard facts?

I don't see this as a lefty vs righty type of debate. To reach national office you have to be a political animal, part of being a politician is covering your ass, which leads  to poor leadership skills as being a politician doesn't require the ability to lead, only the appearance of such. Yes, i agree fully with your statement of a few days ago that the position of POTUS should be decided by draft, not election.

Willy is the ultimate partisan.  He will search madly for any chart that fits his comical timeline that somehow always let's the Dems off the hook.  He refuses to acknowledge any history or political context.  And your extremely fair statement that both parties "kicked the can down the road" until it finally caught up with us has zero affect on Willy. Have you heard that the current shitty economy is the Republican's fault since they took over the House 18 months ago?  Just ask Willy.

GaGambler114 reads

before passing judgment on this particular issue.

I think he might just agree with me on this one. I think there is a much better chance of a dialogue on the subject with Willy than trying to talk to Daffy or Salonpas.

I know you find it difficult to believe that I would give Willy the BOD on anything, but I really believe he has the ability to be at least somewhat objective on this one.

The guy who says that the Democratic Party should change it's name to the Useless Party?

Yes, I certainly think that Obama would have kept kicking the can down the road had he inherited the housing bubble. It's clear to me, that the guy doesn't understand economics very well.

It's also clear that this mess was created by financial deregulation. Phil Gramm penned the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act that gutted Glass Steagall, and then went off to work for UBS bank while calling Americans "whiners" while the entire economy was collapsing. Bill Clinton signed it into law.

So yes, there's plenty of blame to go around. I blame some more than others. But I think the facts bear that out, not partisanship.

It's no secret around here that I'm not exactly a moderate. But that doesn't mean I'm a partisan. I never have been.

Dems have a lot of things to answer for, and I have never hesitated to criticize them when they fuck up.





GaGambler135 reads

because it you are talking to me, I never used the word partisan in my post, directed at you or anyone else for that matter.

Not to mention I actually predicted that you would agree with me that Obama would have kicked the can down the road just like his predecessors.

I may have called you a moron, an asshole, oh fuck it the list is too fucking long to bother with, but I don't recall calling you a partisan, at least not for quite some time.

I think we agree that "EVERYONE was at fault as far as creating the problem, lets save our disagreements for how to fix it.

granted, subprime did  not constitute the biggest % of mortgage value, it was the source of "hot money" tha drove prices thru the roof. It was flippers, flippers using no doc, neg am loans, sometimes leveraging the same property with 3-4-5 different lenders that provided the capital to fuel the bubble pricing. it was the subprime unwinding that triggered everything else. as prices fell, it swept evryone else up into it.

look, i'm not talking about blame in a political sense, what I'm talking about is asigning "blame" to the conditions..

Dems..Repubs...blame who you want, it does'nt mean shit for creating a solution. understanding the root caauses do.

...but as I understand the data, it was an after thought. I think this mess would have happened, even without sub-primes. It wouldn't have been quite as bad without it, but it still would have been a fucking mess.

In all fairness, I think Greenspan deserves as much blame as anyone, for keeping interest rates low when it became clear that our debt load wasn't sustainable.

And it didn't help that our economy had been reduced to the point where house flipping was the best get-rich-quick scam going, instead of an economy that was creating real value.

I knew two guys who flipped houses for a living.  Didn't do a darn thing to them other than cosmetic ( paint, pick up the 70s shag carpet etc.) then flip a few months later.  For about 5 years they didn't even have to work for a living and did very well.

How many ilegal immigrants did he hire?

GaGambler187 reads

The housing boom was starting to run out of gas coincidentally at the same time the government started this whole "affirmative action for housing" it's more than likely that the whole subprime market was created, not so poor people could own houses, but more so builders could keep building and the economy could keep humming along until, like most ponzis they simply ran out of new money.

In that case, everyone is guilty. Clinton and co, kicked the can down to Bush, and Bush tried to kick the can down to the next guy but ran out of scotch tape to keep it all together until the next guy took over.

Like I said, I don't see this as a left vs right issue, even though the idiots like nuguy on the right and Daffy and shitforbrains on the left (damn, we need a better name for salonpas) keep wanting to point the finger at the "other guy" I say both government AND private enterprise were to blame, No one wanted to face the fact that the economy was running out of steam, and EVERYBODY tried to keep it together for "just a little bit longer"

Willy, you are right, the mess would have happened without the sub primes, but it would have happened like every other boom and bust cycle, the excess would have been wrung out of the market, a few people would have rightfully gone broke, and then we'd start a new cycle all over again. This is how the economy is supposed to work, but this time the government meddled with the market instead of regulating it, and here we are, with the biggest mess on our hands in history and no end in sight. It might shock you, but I too believe we are maybe halfway there in recovering from this mess. We are about to see round two in the foreclosure market right, most likely right after the election, and THEN and only then will the end be in sight.

...puke...gurgle...puke...but I do think you're overstating how much sub-primes contributed to this whole mess.

This particularly bugs me, because there's an element to this that's an often repeated right wing talking point.

The claim is that the Community Reinvestment Act caused this mess, which is silly since the CRA has been in effect since the mid 70's and the bill was last amended in '95. You look at the housing bubble, and it begins in '99/2000.

You're dead on when you say that subprimes prolonged this mess. Everyone was trying to get every last drop of blood out of that turnip before the shit hit the fan. Even rural parts of the south, which have historically always suffered from depressed home values, saw a bump in prices at the tail end of the bubble. So, yes, there's tons of blame to go around.

I looked at this mess, and decided to rent out a basement and wait out the bubble until the shit hit the fan. It was not fun living in a basement for a couple years especially when it flooded, but when everyone was living beyond their means, I was saving as much as I can.

When prices tanked, I bought my first home. DC metro home prices have always been competitive, so I knew it would be a safe investment. I bought a single family 4 bedroom 2 bathroom home for 145k, when the market bottomed out. Since then, a home across the street from me has sold for 300k.

A lot of people are responsible for this mess. And a lot of people took advantage of it too, myself included.

GaGambler179 reads

I lived in Atlanta during most of the boom, and in the early 2000's I faced a crossroads, I was in the oil business of course, but prices were low and I was hardly getting rich at the time in oil, I was also dabbling in building houses in the very strong Atlanta housing market, not flipping houses mind you, but building them and considering becoming a full fledged developer and building entire subdivisions.

I can't really put my finger on why I made the decision I did, but after evaluating the price of raw land vs developed lots vs the price I could get for homes in that particular market, some warning bells started going off in my head. It appeared to me that the price would have to continue to skyrocket for at least the next five years for me to come out financially given the already spiraling prices, especially for raw land. I already knew that nothing goes straight up forever and that's when I traded in my builders hat and redevoted myself fulltime to the oil business. Looking back, I think I made the right decision. lol

I only got stuck with one house when the bust came, I knocked the price down a couple of hundred grand, took my loss and never looked back. This is the same advice I give to Marikod sometimes you just need to admit you were wrong, cut your losses and move on.

Congratulations on your conversion into a fellow capitalist, maybe after you make a few bucks, you might feel different when everyone wants a piece of you. lmao

Snowman39104 reads

Yes, plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the aisle, but this is what you missed...



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