Politics and Religion

NYPD have and stop and frisk policy?
mrnogood 333 reads
posted

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/06/stop-frisk-app-nyclu-nypd

JUST MORE PROOF! that our police are no longer here to protect and serve..


"Last year close to 700,000 people were questioned on the city's streets. The vast majority were black or Latino and nearly nine out of ten had committed no crime. "


In NY, looks like your guilty until proven innocent, sadly, many other states seem to be following their lead..

-- Modified on 6/8/2012 12:27:11 AM

Chicago cops Taser 8-month pregnant woman for parking violation

Published: 08 June, 2012, 00:46

The superintendent of the Chicago Police Department says that the reason one of his officers used a Taser stun gun on a woman days away from giving birth because “you can’t always tell whether somebody is pregnant.”

At eight-months pregnant, Tiffany Rent says she would think officers would have been aware of her condition before they assaulted and arrested her on Wednesday morning outside a South Side drug store.

"I was standing at the squad car close enough for him to see that I was pregnant," Rent tells the Chicago Tribune.

More:
http://rt.com/usa/news/chicago-taser-pregnant-rent-324/

I'm not a trained observer either. I heard this all started over a parking ticket. Ms. Rent was parked in a handicaped parking space. Then she drove off when confronted by the officer.

I would have just took the parking citation. I'm not saying CPD needed to tazer her, or they are justified for these actions. The officer could of just as easily let her drive off.

Both of these parties need to learn how to chose there battles wisely. Nobody won in this one, except maybe a lawyer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj_mPVfiFPg

I'm not saying CPD needed to tazer her, or they are justified for these actions.
Exactly. They're out of hand.

I think they have been that way for ever. Now they are more militarized then ever before, they are also more scared of the general public than ever before. What are they scared of ? the unkown.

Now if they are that scared, they are in the wrong line of work. People need jobs so what do you do? There will be more vets joining the ranks when they come home, that is real scary (with all do respect to Veterans) but we know war/combat zones have a pyscological impact on people.

The Woman is a minority, and I think the ACLU pushed the handicaped parking space law?

I'm against racial profiling, but was this a personal responibility issue on the womans part?

and I apear to be mentaly handicapped, since I can't spell the word.

I know apples & oranges, I'm shitting on the ACLU on this one.

I am not arguing that she didn't break a law. I am arguing that the police were way wrong to taser her for it.

mrnogood311 reads

because she was kicked, via emergency c-section.. The kicking caused the baby to have a bm in uterus.. Which is very serious..


When this cops super was interviewed about the incident on the news, he said this cop was TRAINED to do this to pregnant women, and didnt do ANYTHING wrong

-- Modified on 6/7/2012 11:44:55 PM

mrnogood334 reads

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/06/stop-frisk-app-nyclu-nypd

JUST MORE PROOF! that our police are no longer here to protect and serve..


"Last year close to 700,000 people were questioned on the city's streets. The vast majority were black or Latino and nearly nine out of ten had committed no crime. "


In NY, looks like your guilty until proven innocent, sadly, many other states seem to be following their lead..

-- Modified on 6/8/2012 12:27:11 AM

Snowman39427 reads

She cursed at the officers, tore up the ticket and attempted to flee.

Who gives a SHIT if she is pregnant, that does not make you immune to the law!! The real shame is that someone like that is going to be raising a child. In 16 years, her kid will probably be car jacking people in Chicago.

you write your posts just to sound as mean as you can.

It's not about whether or not she broke the law, it is about the cruel and unusual punishment for it. I guarantee that if this woman was blond and "innocent looking" there would be outrage against the police.

So what if she cursed at the police? Is cursing at the police against the law? Is parking in a handicapped section an arrestable offense? Let her curse anyone she wants and rip up her ticket. She still has the ticket. She still has to pay it eventually or she'll have a bench warrant out for her.

But again, regardless of her parking in the handicapped section or any of her subsequent actions, none of that merited getting tasered.

You have to be able to separate these things out. I know you can do it. ;)

In Europe they have parking spaces for pregnant women. Someday we'll catch up with the cool kids.

And that's another thing- I don' care if she was pregnant or not either. The police acted wrongly. They used undue force in a situation that did not warrant it.

-- Modified on 6/8/2012 9:18:29 AM

nuguy46303 reads

when you violated a law, the appropriate police action was taken...when you resisted arrest, the appropriate police action was taken....pregnant or not. Unoftunately, we have a segment of society that likes to avoid punishment at all costs...looks to blame others for the actions taken against them. In this case, take the ticket, go to court if you think it is unfair...or pay the fine. Elements of this society continue to look at every venue possible to escape responsibility. Good job cops!

That she attempted to flee. You by contrast keep ignoring that fact.


Sorry but snow is the one who is on the mark here.

She wasn't under arrest. She wasn't under arrest. She wasn't under arrest.

Sigh.

She was not breaking the law by leaving the scene. She already had the ticket.

Do you think police are justified in tasering someone in that case? Really?? Give her another ticket. Tell her she's under arrest. But tasing her??

And here I thought you were a reasonable human being. :(

When a person violates a police command to "stop and put up your hands" or similar command, the police are permitted to use reasonable force to take the person into custody and cuff em. Then they are placed under arrest.

      So you are looking at the wrong fact. Whether the use of the taser in this case was justified will turn on whether an objective police officer would have viewed her attempt to flee as endangering other persons. Until we have those facts, it is pure speculation to conclude cops are out of hand.

      Now what is missing here is how the cop tased her when she was in the car- the window must have been down. The taser fires darts that go into the target's body to create the circuit. There are just way too many fact that are unknown here to make a judgment.


I'm not a reasonable person bc I think we should have all the facts to make a judgment?

Tough audience.

and I am just going on what I am reading. I wonder if tearing up a ticket is an arrestable offense?

By now some PR person for the PD would have/should have come out with any scrap of any plausible story that would make them look a little better, one would think. And that's why I am presuming that there isn't any.

Regardless, the taser is an ugly, nasty weapon, and never should be used against a pregnant woman. Anyone who thinks that it is OK to endanger a baby in that way for something like this is definitely unreasonable in my opinion. Of course, anyone is free to disagree. ;)

Why did the cop insist on a confrontation? He had her license plate info. She would have been responsible for the ticket no matter what. (Snowman- today in America, the police force is computerized. ;) ) That's why I think they are bullies. They don't want to be "dis-respected". It's all puffy chest macho sh*t.

assault and resisting arrest. If they did not "tell her" as you say [highly unlikely since that would mean no Miranda warnings] , she should have figured it out when they put the cuffs on her LOL.

     So again you are focusing on the wrong thing- she was not arrested for a parking offense.
We still don't know the facts as the police are being mum while they conduct their own investigation which is appropriate.

       But since you now know the charge - a pregnant woman assaulted (presumably a police officer) and resisted arrested, do you still contend the use of the taser was unlawful accepting the truth  of what the police say happened?

her having ripped up the ticket and thrown it in the officer's face. Ridiculous, but there you have it.

As this piece sums up:
"I find it hard to believe a Chicago cop would Taser a defiant pregnant white woman over a parking violation.

"Remember the Anne and Elizabeth Hatch fiasco?

"They are the daughters of then-Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch. In 2005, the sisters were thrown out of a North Side nightclub, allegedly because they had too much to drink. The police charged that Elizabeth struck a police officer, knocking the officer’s glasses off his face, and that Anne slapped an officer and kicked out the rear passenger-side window.

"Despite the ruckus these young women allegedly put up, at no point did police officers use Tasers.

"Belligerent black women aren’t so lucky even when they are pregnant."
http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/13021196-452/tasering-isnt-colorblind.html

And I am not arguing that the use of the tasers was unlawful (I do not know the law and there has been dispute, as in the Seattle case). I am arguing that it was rash, unnecessary, and over-the-top.

Snowman39327 reads

because Markirod disagrees with you he is suddenly an "unreasonable" person?

Who is being unreasonable?

By the way, she did not have the ticket. remember she tore it up. Did you actually read the article you linked to?

By the way, she did not have the ticket. remember she tore it up. Did you actually read the article you linked to?
So you think that if I lose my ticket or my dog eats it when I get home, that I am not responsible for paying it? Interesting.

Snowman39373 reads

and she got it put back in her face.

I personally file that under just desserts.

she were your wife/daughter/sister/cousin/mother? Is that appropriate treatment for someone in your family?

Posted By: Snowman39
and she got it put back in her face.

I personally file that under just desserts.

Snowman39315 reads

My wife has too much class and my daughters were raised better.

If I had one of my kids talk to a cop like that, tear up a ticket and then try to leave before the officer was done, the taser would be the least of their worries when I found out. The first thing I would do is march them down to the police station and make them apologize to the officer.

If I had one of my kids talk to a cop like that, tear up a ticket and then try to leave before the officer was done, the taser would be the least of their worries when I found out. The first thing I would do is march them down to the police station and make them apologize to the officer.
So that would be a yes, it would be ok for your kids to be tasered in the same instance?

We are talking about matters of policy here and our positions are based on principles. If we personalize the facts like this, then there is only one answer to give - we would recuse ourselves from being a decision maker on the issue.

    When I posted that it was absurd for California to extradite Roman Polanski when I knew the state would be force to release him from prison if he was convicted, I got a lot of that -"would you feel the same way if he had raped your daughter?"

If the answer was anything but yes, then I would not be sticking to my principles. But accepting the hypothetical, I responded that I would recuse myself from makiing the decision.

we collectively decide what is appropriate as punishment. I am, as a matter of fact, against the death penalty (though that should be no surprise here, eh?), and am against tasering anyone in the situation outlined by the story above. I also think that if the Hatch sisters were tasered, there would have been a public outcry, even though their actions were far worse than this lady's actions.

Do you think they should have been tasered, Marikod?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/13021196-452/tasering-isnt-colorblind.html

Posted By: marikod
        We are talking about matters of policy here and our positions are based on principles. If we personalize the facts like this, then there is only one answer to give - we would recuse ourselves from being a decision maker on the issue.

    When I posted that it was absurd for California to extradite Roman Polanski when I knew the state would be force to release him from prison if he was convicted, I got a lot of that -"would you feel the same way if he had raped your daughter?"

If the answer was anything but yes, then I would not be sticking to my principles. But accepting the hypothetical, I responded that I would recuse myself from makiing the decision.

I don't see any reason that when making policies, we shouldn't ALL be made to ask those questions. "If I, or one of mine, were found on the wrong side of this law, would I be ok with the outcome of this policy?" Because nobody knows the future. And perhaps such questioning might make us a more humane society in what we deem appropriate redress for crimes.



-- Modified on 6/13/2012 1:19:34 AM

Snowman39345 reads

Neither was tasering her under those circumstances. Last I checked the officers have not been charged with anything.

So since that is your standard, what is your problem, or are you just being a hypocrite about the whole matter ?

I just want to know if you think that the Hatches deserved to be tasered. While copping an attitude is not breaking the law, damaging police property and physical assault are clearly breaking the law.

"They are the daughters of then-Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch. In 2005, the sisters were thrown out of a North Side nightclub, allegedly because they had too much to drink. The police charged that Elizabeth struck a police officer, knocking the officer’s glasses off his face, and that Anne slapped an officer and kicked out the rear passenger-side window."

One would have thought they were taught better/had more class, too, being the Atty Gen's daughters and all. No?

I personally hate the idea of tasers altogether, as they are just not consistent (you never know who's going to have a heart-attack or some other life-threatening reaction from them). So I would say, no- don't taser anyone.

So, Snowman, if the police had tasered the Hatches, would you have been in support of that?

Snowman39451 reads

Police are people and as such, even with training, will react to situations in different manners.

The standard I believe we have to hold the police to is did they operate within the law during their interactions during an arrest or any other interaction. We have all at some time in our lives dealt with the cop with an attitude, and probably the cop who was cool and let us off.

Do I think she deserved to be tazered, I was not there, but based on accounts of the situation, probably so. The standard I use to judge this is really, did the officers operate within the law. Since no charges have been brought, it seems they did.

Do I think the Hatch girls should have been tazered, yes, I would have been fine with that. Like I said though, different officers handle situations differently.

-- Modified on 6/13/2012 5:43:42 AM

I appreciate your answer and your honesty. :) And fair enough that for you the law would be the standard. That's an acceptable answer.

I also think that not all laws are just, and that we need to challenge those we think are unjust. I think tasering a pregnant woman is unjust. That would be a law that I would challenge.

There is a lawsuit going on about the case of the woman in Seattle who was tasered while 7 months pregnant. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out in the end. Here's the latest I could find:

---------------------------------------------------------------

City’s cost for defending SPD Taser case tops $424,000

June 1, 2012 at 4:39 PM
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/06/citys-cost-for-defending-spd-taser-case-tops-424000/
Posted by Mike Carter

The tab for defending three Seattle police officers who in 2004 repeatedly used a Taser on a pregnant woman during a traffic stop is $424,616, according to the City Attorney’s Office.

The U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider a final appeal of a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals opinion that found that police can be held liable for excessive use of force when using Tasers in some circumstances. While the appeals court ended a civil lawsuit filed by the woman, Malaika Brooks, it allowed a state assault claim against the three officers to proceed.

Brooks sued the three officers, who used the device in stun-gun mode three times against her when she refused to sign a speeding ticket or get out of the car. She was seven months pregnant at the time.

The city appealed after a federal judge said the case could proceed to trial. A three-member panel sided with the officers, however, Brooks convinced the appeals court to reconsider. An 11-judge panel ruled 6-5 in Brookes’ favor.

The officers, through their attorney Ted Buck, took the case to the Supreme Court against the city’s wishes and on Buck’s dime.

Kimberly Mills, a spokeswoman for City Attorney Pete Holmes, said Buck’s former firm, the now-defunct Stafford Frey Cooper, was paid $405,000 of the city’s total cost for the case.

AnotherPerspective301 reads

If you are not mentally capable to stand down against the police when confronted or ticketed ,
you could easily end up dead .
When Tiffany  Rent became hostile, tearing up the ticket and cursing at the officer she set herself up for worse than she received . Undue force was not the issue that got her tazed .
 She should learn STFU , argue the  ticket in court .
 Her BF Joseph Hobbs  also at the scene , arrested for  interfering with police .
http://www.newsinblack.com/chicago/article_39df64a8-b0e6-11e1-a7f1-001a4bcf6878.html

 
  Kelly Thomas wasn't a loud mouth , he ended up dead .
  http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/tag/kelly-thomas-beating/

Granted; I wouldn't mind making $70K+/year along with a rocking benefits & entitlement plan. But the insalubrious morass of authoritarian fascist precepts, and bullying dynamics should make a sane homo-sapien wretch.

 As long as power and authority is regularly handed to those who already possess large physical presence and a history of using it; abominations of abuse of power and excuse’s for such will be defended and championed by those committing as well as those supervising and signing their pay checks.  

 Modern day cops are merely militarily equipped thugs victimizing the citizenry for fun and corporate/government profit. Every fucking one of em' can die of an accute flesh eating cancer for all I care.

You open your post with this caption which you apparently pasted verbatim fro the news report:

"Chicago cops Taser 8-month pregnant woman for parking violation"

    That is not what happened at all, according to the police report. The cop did not tase her for a parking violation - which would outrageous - but because she attempted to drive away after he commanded her not to do so. If she was agitated and posed a danger of hitting people standing in front of the vehicle, then this force used might well be reasonable. There is no indication yet that the cop who tased her even knew she was pregnant.

      You left out the true reason for the tase, even though it was in most of the media reports I saw.

      Cops have to make split second decisions to deal with events that are rapid and evolving and that is why excessive force charges are evaluated from the perspective of the cop, not the victim. The media has horribly misreported the event - as did you by accepting the writer's version so unquestionably  - by focusing on her pregnant condition and the prior parking violation rather than the attempt to flee, the danger she posed to third persons,  and what the cop actually perceived.

     Until we know these facts, we cannot conclude "cops out of hand."

there would be any just reason for tasing her given what we do know from the news stories? Pregnant or not?

She was not under arrest. Not one news story I have read (and by now it must be 12) has mentioned that the police thought she was endangering anyone by driving away. She already had a ticket- it's not like her having ripped it up was going to eliminate the charge. If she didn't pay it, she would be issued with an arrest warrant. I am not disputing that she committed a parking violation, littered, and possibly even by a severe stretch of the imagination, assaulted a police officer (which she was charged for after). I am disputing the fact that such force was used.

She threw the ticket in the officer's face. She was tasered for it, and her boyfriend's elbow was dislocated for trying to intervene (probably instinctively trying to protect her, as any decent human being would). That response by police is way over the top.

Regardless of this particular story, I stand by my statement: Cops are out of hand.

http://www.policebrutality.info/

And it is not the first time.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/13021196-452/tasering-isnt-colorblind.html

not the underlying actual events which we do not know yet.

     As bad as the tabloid report were -by making it seem the police knowingly tasered a pregnant woman for a parking violation - at least they buried in their reports the one key fact that would make the tasing prima facie lawful- that she was attempting to drive away from the scene in violation of the cop's command.

       You cut and pasted the story so as to leave that out. Sorry but the NY Times is not going to be hiring you anytime soon- even the National Enquirer printed the cop's reason for the tasering   LOL.

      But to answer your question "would be any just reason for tasing her given what we do know from the news stories?" the answer is the tabloid reports do not give us the second key fact we need to make this judgment - was she endangering herself or others by attempting to flee. I would be willing to bet that the police report - and the separate Use of Force report  that this officer will be required to complete - will say that there was a crowd standing in front of the car and the cop feared for their safety.

I would be willing to bet that the police report - and the separate Use of Force report  that this officer will be required to complete - will say that there was a crowd standing in front of the car and the cop feared for their safety.
Well, bless your heart. You're a lot less cynical than I. Or maybe a little more naive? Especially given the spate of police violence that has spread across the states, and the very similar story from Seattle where three cops bullied a pregnant mother in her car with a taser. Just because she wouldn't get out of her car when they asked.

They're just bullies. Growing up watching re-runs of Andy Griffith, I used to think that the police were for the most part good and there to protect us, with just a few bad ones. How my viewpoint has changed on that. Now I think a few get into it for good reasons, like politicians, but once in and they realize they can't change such a corrupt system, they figure they'll just line their nest and keep their head low. Or being predisposed to the lure of power over people, take it for all it's worth. Very few remain upstanding, and if they do, it is more the fact that they turn a blind eye. If they try to change anything they get booted out in short order. I have personal experience with this via a person very lose to me. And did you see Crash? Excellent microcosm of the LAPD (or any PD). (But what I also like about the movie is how it renders all of the characters as full, multidimensional people, and that everyone has a soft, warm, loving bit inside of them. Even bad cops.)
Sorry but the NY Times is not going to be hiring you anytime soon- even the National Enquirer printed the cop's reason for the tasering   LOL.
Well, then it is a good thing I'm not looking for a job there, eh? I'll just stick to posting on hooker boards. :D

you conclude that so many cops use excessive force that it is fair to say "they are all bullies" or "cops are out of hand," you should be aware that there are statistics on use of force by state and local police that give us the percentage of excessive force charges and excessive force findings.

         Unless you have reviewed these statistics, your assertions about law enforcement generally have about as much validity as using a cliche like "men are really only interested in sex."

Okay maybe that one is true LOL.

a research project on this, but I am sure some exist already. I will look for some later tonight if I have time to access my uni library online. But here is an article from 2007 about police violence increasing since 9/11.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm

What is interesting is that there was also reported to be an increase in domestic violence since 9/11.

are "bad" that we can conclude that the police are out of hand.

      When you find the statistics on excessive force complaints per encounters between police and free citizens (lets keep the prisons out of this), you will find that percentage is miniscule. But good for you are starting to back up your argument with facts.

So the original post, "Cops are out of hand" was my personal opinion. I should probably make note of that from now on when I post something here. ;)

Haven't had a chance to go into my uni library (that will take a couple hours) but here is some info:

The Cato institute has a project called National Police Misconduct Reporting Project, which has data for 2009 and 2010:  http://www.policemisconduct.net

According to their stats, in 2009, 3445 incidences of police misconduct were reported. In 2010, 4861 were reported. That's an increase at the moment, but no data there for 2011 or before 09. I didn't have time to read the report to see if these were broken down into categories such as corruption or brutality, but I will see if any scholarly journal articles have such info. Eventually.

It would be interesting to see the increase since the occupy movement.

Here's a book published by the Cato institute on paramilitary police raids that buttresses my former statement about a police state: http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/overkill-rise-paramilitary-police-raids-america

And a random collection of tidbits: http://www.presstv.com/usdetail/192349.html

And a graphic:

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