Minnesota

Re:Note from the mod
Tenn_Man 30248 reads
posted

Srvfan, you did much to help the community at large by allowing us to post our frustrations -- and provided solid ground to keep the MN community together when it could have been destroyed, completely.  You’ve earned my respect.  The MN community is lucky to have you.

Respectfully,
T

It seems like I'm in somewhat of a controversy so I'll try to explain myself.

I check the Board 2-3 times/day and approve messages. If I've seen you post on this Board once or twice, I give you "unmoderated" privileges. You then can post automatically on this board and any other board in TER.

I did respond to a previous thread from a newbie who said he wanted referrals for a mature gfe, etc. I then posted something to the effect of warning people not to put names and numbers on the board because (1)of recent LE activity, (2)this person could read reviews, and(3)the poster was using an alias which you could not send private email.

I may have been too harsh or out-of-line. I believe I posted again explaining my position.

I have no bad feelings about TBD .... hell, I don't even know that much about the recent controversy. I think my only posts about TBD is that if everyone is po'd, just don't post over there.

Finally, I received a private message from NY Moderator (an alias?)but couldn't respond via private mail. I'll post his message you all can read at the top of the board. He's pissed and maybe he has a right to be. I'll let everyone else decide.

And if you want immediate access, email and let me know a little bit about you. But have the courtesy to use your real login and not an alias.

I'm sick of this soap opera already.

As I have said before, the new TBD Moderator seems to be quite a reasonable chap. If he had been installed BEFORE the recent fracas, and TBD had kept his nasty, ignorant muzzle out of the whole MGC business, I think TBD / MN would have been a fine option.

(No accusations against the TBD Mod., BTW, but SOMEONE is obviously encouraging new or outsiders to shill on the TBD / MN Board. Most of the recent handles have never been seen there before, and quite a few of them have never been seen ANYWHERE before)

As it is, the very thought of supporting TBD in any way makes me sick to my stomach. No matter how great the Mod. may be, he works for TBD. Buying ads or memberships, or posting any content that encourages others to place ads or buy memberships, simply helps to line TBD's pockets. No thanks.

As for people posting ISO's at this time, I don't see them getting lots of good advice on the TBD Board, either. People are understandably reluctant on both sides of the provider-client relationship to try to make new friends right now. If the NY Mod. and his buddy are going to get bent out of shape about that, then it strikes me that THEY are the ones who are not being very understanding.

Finally, I think the NY Mod's post (which you posted above) qualifies as a flame. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't post that if it came from any regular TER member. A fellow Moderator should be held to an even HIGHER standard in that regard, not a lower one.

As far as the soap opera goes, I hear you. But what happened with MGC, and what TBD did after that, were beyond our control. It is hard to expect people not to be scared, and confused, and wanting to express opinions about it.

Time, as they say, heals all wounds. In the case of TBD, I can only hope that time also wounds all heels.

Mountaineer .... I guess you can consider the NY Mod post a flame but I wanted to let people see what was written. Perhaps others, including MN members, feel I was also out-of-line. I'm willing to stand up to criticism, justified or otherwise.

But his criticism does not define me, it only defines him as someone who needs to criticize.

Under the circumstances, I think you were right to hold / reject that post, if that is in fact what you did. I think it went BEYOND fair for you to post it despite its undeservedly harsh tone.

And I think the NY Moderator was way out of line to begin with, and he then took a big step further out of line by posting an accusation about you on the TBD Board. This guy is marginal by the standards I would apply to a member of the general public. His temperment (and writing skills) are clearly not suited to being a Moderator, even in NY.

Da_Stinger34979 reads

get the burr out of your butt and get a life.  ENOUGH already with your whining and moaning. I find you to be pathetic in your rantings and I'll bet that your buddy the mod here will censor my comments (although I notice you can pretty much say anything you want to).  Seems odd to me and I guess since some people are stepping up and calling you on it, that now we'll hear a call to (be nice) from the mgmnt here ...... that too would be 'odd'
and not in context with the recent ' free-for-all' attitude that allowed you to rant and rave in a never-ending manner.

Nuff said

... when the shills from the East Coast can take their noses out of TBD's butt long enough to comment, they are calling me all sorts of unpleasant names I guess.

I am happy to be judged by my enemies as well as my friends. If you and your crew of TBD sycophants don't like me, I think I'll still sleep just fine at night.

Da_Stinger29011 reads

Well Arnold, you are truly not worthy of engaging in any further dialogue with.............

You are obviously on a mission and walled off from any reality.

A point of advice, "when we walk around with a mean spirit inside, it tends to affect our entire life".

I saw how you campaigned to keep posters away from another board. And I also watched your reaction when people posted anyway. That is to say that you now go out of your way each and every day to discredit the new and rehash the old. Really sir, there is more to life than that and more to life than these boards too.

Go out and see a lady, relax and watch a movie, anything at all that would keep you from being infested in the way you are.

It's fascinating, really, you and TBD must have been separated at birth. And add Daddy Warbucks to the mix. You all fall back on the same tired old B.S. - that anyone who is persistant in disagreeing with you, and who refuses to be shouted down, really needs to relax and take it easy.

I'm sure you would like that, so that you an your ilk can go on trampling anyone you don't happen to like, as your buddy TBD did recently here in Minnesota.

FYI, I HAVE seen a Lady, quite recently in fact :-). I have also seen a few movies. I have recently shoveled a bunch of snow, which I'm told is good for the soul. My doctor tells me I am not "infested" with anything in particular; in fact, the only infestation I am aware of is one of the Minnesota hobby community by outsiders.

If you would take your out-of-towner crap back out of town where it belongs, things would quiet down right away. Of course, they would quiet WAY down over on the TBD Board, which is of course why you infest us in the first place, in a pathetic attempt to generate the appearance of some activity there.

I did and will continue to campaign to keep business away from any Board that is used as a weapon by outsiders against the people of this community. I neither deny that, nor apologize for it, and all your browbeating will only encourage me to redouble my efforts. And as for rehashing the old ... when the evidence has been deleted, and outsiders come in denying or minimizing what was done, then yes, I will happily rehash it.

I will repeat: TBD, you, and the rest of his cronies obviously have so much mean spirit that you are able to export it to Minnesota. Any meanness in my spirit pales by comparison.

Tenn_Man32564 reads

If Mountaineer has reason to stand up for an issue ... there's reason to listen.   Mountaineer is a true friend to both sides of the hobby/profession. He's earned his stripes; let that be understood.

Many people, myself included, saw a side of TBD that we've never witnessed before. To have closure, we need assurance that this will never happen again. Too much is at risk on both sides of the hobby/profession. TBD inflicted the wounds, maybe he could consider starting the healing process by making it right with those he wronged.  Not exactly sure how or what to suggest, but a contribution to the legal fund would help for starters.  Tossing in some free advertising to some of the MN ladies (he insulted) wouldn't hurt either.

When you have the power that TBD has and use that power to go on a mad-dog attack, it causes people to question motivation ... and it causes us to question what may happen in the future.  What's to stop TBD moderators from doing the same thing that TBD did? TBD moderators are in charge of our personal security.  Even if the 'volunteer' moderators on TBD don't have the computer skills to trace us -- TBD does.  As I recall (can't do a search on the Orlando board -- my password won't work, so trusting my memory! he even determined that a computer was in a child's bedroom when he exposed one 'cancer' as he put it.  So it can be done!  The new TBD moderator implies that TBD moderators accept no pay, receive no benefits, are ethical beyond reproach, or they're removed.  I must take issue with the mod's suggestion, at least on one huge point ... how can 'special favors' NOT take place when providers are sometimes TBD moderators?  This fact alone is reason enough, IMO, to question those in charge of TBD boards.  How can a lady in the business run the board's business without it helping her business ... or adversely affect the business of other independents?  We know TBD's position regarding competition!  Personally, this didn’t bother me too much until TBD showed himself ... now, I'm skeptical of seeing any lady advertising on TBD.  Is she a moderator?  Where is her loyalty -- with TBD or with us as clients if we stand up to TBD?  Ever wonder why some hobbyists won't use their board handle on TBD when contacting a lady or post their e-mail address?

We can't change what happened, it was a serious blow to the hobby/profession -- but we can and must, IMO, work to keep it from happening again.  

TBD started this whole mess, not Mountaineer.  Letting this issue die is not in the best interest of the community, IMO.  Hobbyists and providers were viciously attacked on the MN (and TN) board just as surely as our nation was attacked on September 11.  Now, I'm not comparing the two as equal wrongs, but I am saying that we have a right (and a duty) to stand up to the wrongs committed against our community.

Truthfully, I'll now be very skeptical trusting TBD for a long time, regardless of what he does at this point, but I'd be willing to listen, especially if he made an effort.  Again, none win when all lose.

So, I must respectfully disagree with your harsh judgment of Mountaineer.  He stood up for others when they were wronged -- is that so wrong?

Take care,

T

RiverTN31211 reads

I’ve been a regular poster on TBD both on the local Tennessee board and on the national board for a little more than a year now.  These boards SHOULD BE nothing but mind-blowing FUN.  I’ve had my share of fun flirting with the ladies, writing reviews, and bantering with the guys on the local board and exchanging philosophical views and trying to be helpful on the national board—all that was fun, too.  Lately, I’ve not been having much fun.  Some of it has been my own damned fault.  Some of it is beyond my ability to control, and it’s not too terribly funny to me that an incident that occurred on a Minnesota board has also fragmented a community in Tennessee.

Yeah, community.  These boards exist on a continuum between the Help Wanted bulletin down at Safeway and a true community.  They ain't either, but they fall somewhere in between.  A lot like those forums and chat rooms on CompuServe and AOL and across the Web worldwide.  There is a new kind of community in the world and TER, TBD, and TGN are a part of them.

Mountaineer and Tenn_Man have both been valued and respected members of the Tennessee TBD community.  More recently, Mountaineer has been like a Shawnee warrior who crossed the Ohio, stopped off waaaaay too briefly in Kentucky lol, and proceeded on to chat with the other warriors in Tennessee, highly intelligent, very knowledgeable, willing to share what he knows, always in good spirit and humor.

Tenn_Man is like a country gentleman.  I’m reading a biography of Robert E. Lee right now, and the Tenn_Man reminds me a bit of him: gentle humor, leadership by example, always polite while holding himself to high ethical standards, but firmly critical of those, hobbyist and provider alike, who are less than honest.

What do they both have in common?  Weeeeell… they both love their favorite ladies lol.   They also love their communities and contributed much to them, both locally and on boards in other states.

What else do they have in common?  They are both having “password problems” and are prevented from further contribution (though, I’m very sure that they would be imposing a moratorium on themselves even if that problem didn’t exist—something else they have in common).  

Why are they having password problems?  Hell, I dunno.  Is it a technical glitch?  Or more likely, have they been banned?  If so, WHY?  The best guess is because Mountaineer had the audacity to disagree and be insubordinate, yes, insubordinate to TBD.  Why would Tenn_Man be banned?  Because he called Mountaineer a friend and asked him to e-mail him.  Why haven’t I been banned?  Because I’m a member of the board and TBD would have to return the fee.  I have a feeling THAT situation will change real fast, simply due to the fact that I’m making this post.

The Help Wanted bulletin is owned by Safeway and the TBD board is owned by The Big Dog.  But the community is owned by those who inhabit it.  This seems to be a fact that is
unrecognized by TBD and is causing a lot of pain.  In this regard it's more like a dictatorial government.  TBD would like to see himself as a benevolent big
brother (take a look at his posts sometime and you will see that he refers to himself in the 3rd person), and maybe that's how he started out.  But now it seems to me that he has developed a God complex not unlike Josef Stalin.  “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”  I know that sounds harsh, but he has the same capability to destroy person’s good works and their board identity in the same way that Stalin removed so many from their communities and sent them to the Gulags for merely disagreeing with him.

The thing that is needed is a community that has a governmental structure much the same as our own country, a democracy with balance of power, with board monitors elected by the community and whose actions are accountable to the community rather than the dictator.  Otherwise, they get voted out of office rather than replaced by the dictator. At least, that's the way THIS American sees it.  

I don’t have the time nor the technical expertise to do this.  It’s my hope that some GOOD PERSON (or persons) who does will read this and will.





Big_Kahuna29863 reads

I love the idea of a democratic forum where we could all be more or less free to express our views without fear of being cut off, but philosophically, I don't think it would work for this type of community. There is a definite "underground" feel (part of the attraction, IMHO) that tends to make for a certain rebellious quality; I'm thinking like the old west frontier towns, where the civilization of the bigger cities hadn't crept in yet.
Part of that civilization was the enforcement of the laws(rules), which was usually handled by a local Sheriff (moderator). When there was no other body of law enforcement nearby, the Sheriff was the sole dictator, and certainly there are tales of corruption in the old west where that power was abused.
Part of what made that fade into history (as much as it did) was the onset of high-speed communication. Now we live in the age where that communication has enabled "virtual villages" to exist, but we still don't have a good handle on their form, and we don't know how to control them.
That leaves a big vaccuum in place for those boards to experiment with different "governing bodies" and techniques, and see what works. Then again, nobody is really doing it as an experiment, they are doing it to make money, so it behooves them to retain a dictatorial control over the boards.
And even if there were a group of non-profiting third parties that were to put a board together and carve out their own chunk of cyberspace, there are outside agencies (A.K.A. Big Brother) that can and will stomp all over them should they be deemed to be operating against the interests of Those In Power.
Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

RiverTN33616 reads

I enjoyed reading your analogy of the old west frontier.  Actually made me laugh. :-)  Visualized Dodge City at the end of a cattle drive, the cowboys shooting pistols in the air, bellying up to the bar, and paying visits to the rooms at the top of the stairs above the saloons.  And the Sheriff dragging them off to jail when they got too drunk and disorderly.  Guess the boards are a bit like that, and maybe a simple and efficient justice is what the “salon owners” hire the moderators for.  It’s the stuff of legend when in fact, the Wyatt Earp of history was little like the portrayal of him by Randolph Scott, Ronald Reagan, Joel McRae, James Garner, Kurt Russell, and Kevin Costner.  The real man was a complex character who was known to cheat at cards and who could be a brute who regularly pissed off even those “law abiding citizens” he was sworn to protect.  He was The Law, did some truly good things, but also was above the law and rarely suffered the consequences of his own bad behavior.  A bit like TBD.

In an age of lightening fast communications, “lazers in the jungle,” and complicated lives, we seem to want things simplified for us, and to live in a fantasy.  To be like a Hollywood movie, or better yet, like a ‘50’s horse opera like Gunsmoke, with James Arness the Wyatt Earp wannabe.  Matt Dillon, the moral US Marshal, the benevolent dictator.  The total good-guy with Miss Kitty on one arm and his righteous pistol on the other.  Life in black-and-while terms, with total bad guys faced down in the street and biting the dust as they deserve.  A simple and swift justice.

Maybe you are right, and democracy is far too messy and far too real for the tastes of tv junkies and virtual villagers.  I would like to believe differently, though.  Democracy does not work well in third-world countries where most the people are illiterate, and could care less about the bigger political picture because they are waaay too busy trying to get their basic needs met.  Life under the dictator, with his simple and swift justice suits them just fine.  But the men in this hobby, including Mountaineer, Tenn_Man, and yourself are intelligent and educated men who have the resources not only to meet their own needs, but to go further, and have fun while trying to make the world a better place for others.  Plus, the providers I’ve met are equally intelligent and caring.  Each are capable of casting a meaningful vote.  There is real potential here, and it would be a shame to see it wasted.

My thanks to two of my good friends from The Volunteer State, for their kind words both here and elsewhere. The TBD Boards in TN and OH were my "home town" for a few years, and the newly hatched boards in IN and MO would have also been logical meeting places for friends of mine. I feel as bad about leaving those behind as about my self-imposed exile from the MN TBD Board.

I do want to clarify that my password problems, whatever their cause, were temporary. Apparently others, including people who had not offended the Board Owner, had similar problems. FWIW, I don't think that my problems had anything to do with the things I had posted.

Had I really wanted to, I could have simply cleared my cookies and created another handle. My absence from all TBD Boards is entirely my own choice. Neither TBD nor the MN Board Moderator have banned me or otherwise tried to prevent me from posting.

When I had password / access problems for the first time ever, and they happened right around the time of the "drama" on TBD / MN, I interpreted those problems as a purposeful act. I now believe they were some sort of software glitch, and would not want to have people think otherwise on my account.

Big_Kahuna26586 reads

I would agree with the software glitch. I had problems as well on TBD because they required all non-member posters to re-sign up. I had to use a new handle (subtle difference, from "Big Kahuna" to "Big_Kahuna") because I couldn't log in with my old one.
It also appears that I can only post one message at a time now, with a waiting period in between (480 seconds?). That may be a non-member thing, I don't think it's just me.

RiverTN28417 reads

Mountaineer.  I am VERY glad that you have not been banned from TBD.  I am saddened, though, by your self-imposed exile but understand your reasons.  It now appears, though, that my judgment of TBD was premature.  As it turns out, my judgment of his character was harsh and comparison with Stalin extreme, and I do apologize for that.  I agree with Tenn-Man, though, that we have seen a side of character that we have not seen before and also agree with you that he owes the Minnesota TBD board something more than a half-hearted apology.

I’d also like to explain that when I referred to TBD as the “best board” I was referring to its powerful search functions and inroads into every state.  It was not to imply that either TER or TGN are a lesser communities.  I still believe that those who post in those communities are the owners of those communities, and not the guys who created and profit from the boards, nor the monitors who police them.  They have the ability to ban any of us for no reason other than disagreeing with them and potential for the abuse of power is real.  I hope for all of our sakes it never happens.

Maybe sometime soon, we can put this all behind us…and start having some fun again!!!!

Launce37520 reads

As best I can tell you're doing OK on the mod stuff.  I've done a fair amount of it and it's not necessarily an easy job and is often pretty thankless - hang in there.

On the NY Mod issue I'm not sure I got everything, but I think I would have taken it to GND first, but that's just the way I handle stuff and in this case, given the circumstances with woolfy it may have been more of a board issue rather than a mod issue anyway.

Once all this controversy floats out things should return to normal and be more enjoyable for everyone, especially you!

Take care and stay calm.

Launce



-- Modified on 5/23/2002 8:03:28 AM

Tenn_Man30249 reads

Srvfan, you did much to help the community at large by allowing us to post our frustrations -- and provided solid ground to keep the MN community together when it could have been destroyed, completely.  You’ve earned my respect.  The MN community is lucky to have you.

Respectfully,
T

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