(I posted this as a response further down, but it kinda got lost as threads above it advanced. I hope the mod's don't mind me repeating myself.)

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OK, please don't flame me.

I am the "dreaded" single male, but I want to get involved in sexual experimentation and open sexuality. Whether into polyamory or swinging, is really a subsidiary question that I can't currently answer, because my experience is so limited. I have always been a high-drive individual, and I don't feel that "standard" relationships really fulfill me, neither physically nor emotionally. I of course don't KNOW whether alternatives would work or not, until I try them.

But I can't figure out how to get involved in trying them. I have a hard time finding receptive girlfriends -- most of the women I date are much more conservative than I would like them to be, about multiple-partnerships, about sharing, about porn even -- and I have therefore tended to gravitate toward the hobby to fulfill my physical needs.

Of course, I don't find the hobby particularly emotionally fulfilling. It's nice to meet the great women available in the world, but largely I can't afford to have the longer-term girl-friend-style visits that would be necessary to mimic "swinging" experiences. And in any case, an interaction you pay for is bound to feel a little more shallow than one you feel BOTH partners are seeking to be engaged in strictly for interpersonal reasons ... or ALL THREE partners, or four, or six, as the case may be.

Anyway, where do I start? I have attempted to get involved in parties in my neighborhood, but find that I am largely expected to be a visitor looking in on someone else's fun. Is there some "tried and true" method of meeting women who might hook up with me in a less "traditional" manner?

I don't lack attractive qualities. I feel I provide a fit and good-looking body, a young and active sex drive, excellent education, and I'm always working on improving my financial status (heck, I don't think money would be really central to this issue anyway). Despite the wordy nature of my posts on TER (LOL) I'm usually a good conversationalist and a friendly listener, the sort of fellow who has lots of friends. But that's just it ... lots of friends, very few lovers. I don't drive a Harley, and I'll never appear "dominant" or "bad boy" because I'm limited to 5'8". Nevertheless, I have a great sense of comedy, and have often gotten rooms rocking in laughter thanks to my capacity for physical humor, if the situation is right. I have a variety of interests, a capacity to converse on several levels with people of many backgrounds, and about several different subjects. One interesting thing, is that eccentrics seem attracted to me, people who aren't "crazy" but just not society's norm, and I find that great, very fulfilling to have a chance for input from different viewpoints. And I'm sure I could beat you at a kitchen game of non-tournament Scrabble. >:] But somewhere in the mix, I don't come off as "sexy" or "wowee lookit that one I gotta have him!" I come off as "he's a neat safe guy; anyone would be lucky to build a family with him." Which is NOT what I want. I don't mean to toot my own horn -- nobody ever really knows how he or she appears to other people -- but just to analyze a bit what it is that I "offer" in the hopes of figuring out how to modify the presentation a little bit. Or maybe it's not an issue of presentation, maybe it IS an issue of "who I am" not just "how I look." I dunno ... you tell me.

So, are there any hints from you lifestylers? I've seen the web and usenet resources. I just thought I'd start a discussion about where to find viable swinging partners. I really get a twinge of jealousy, of a "life not lived to the fullest," when I see threads about swinging, or when I notice (as happened last night) on HBO one of those documentaries about people who "experiment." There was a tantra workshop, and then a Dutch sex club, and then some kind of Southwest USA mud experience. I think I'd forego the mud ... ... but I'm sure there are plenty of us who'd like to get involved in the other stuff. It genuinely breaks my heart in a way, to see the people having a wonderful time among sharing individuals and to know that, so far, I haven't ever been invited to such a great party. I feel like, I wanted to live a full life but had the bad luck of being born in North America ... if you get my drift.

One final point before I go. I notice there is no shortage of attractive women on this planet, looking for hooking up. Some of them are interested in the same things I'm interested in, I'm sure, although I couldn't prove it by experience. I suppose I just haven't found them yet. Could you suggest how I might go about finding them, whether it's swingers or polyamorists or both? Some of them, however, seem to want long-term traditional commitment from men, in exchange for access to their sexuality. I'm not interested in interacting with such shallow people. I don't find that sort of relationship (the one where the woman "limits" her desires in order to control the man) to be equitable, not only because *I* don't get the sex I would want, but also because *she* doesn't experience an open life. Her time on the planet has to be limited to keeping score -- why would I want to enable that dysfunctionality? To me, the more openly sexual lifestyle seems like a chance to get away from the princess opportunists who, in my experience, have turned mating and dating into an economic enterprise, in which the guy "pays" for her being a willing partner. I'd like to make really clear, that I'm not into the concept of the lifestyle simply for my own sexual gratification, but for "fulfillment" of a higher sort. It's not JUST about being horny, dang it! If I could find a willing partner in the FIRST place, the give-take could start up and the take-take could be short-circuited ... see my point?

Anyway, any advice would be welcome.


-- Modified on 10/29/2002 4:40:16 PM

Sorry, you must get some flaming - you need to stay away from drugs or alcohol before posting.

What does being 5'8" have to do with being a 'bad boy'? It's a lifestyle or attitude. Wear all black, quit your real job and do something 'cool', mumble, and chain smoke. None of the attributes you mention are going to pick up hot chicks. Sorry, life's tough.

The premise that 'there is no shortage of attractive women' is ludicrous. Here in LA there are a lot, but not nearly enough to keep up with demand. Of course your 'attractive' may be much lower than mine. I've been called much worse than 'picky'.

As far as your dream of getting out of this cycle where women use their looks and sexual power on men: that's the way it is - you should just make the best of it. If you can't find a woman who meets your needs, and from the posts on this board I know I'm not the only one, use this hobby to get your rocks off.

Rambling and babbling is one thing, which I've often enough owned up to. Sorry. Being irresponsibly drunk or stoned is another. I wasn't. Are you?

Anyway, thanks for the response. Sorry your life sucks and you're resigned to making the most of it. I intend to change the parts of my life that suck, thank you very much.

Your post is rambling and bambling as was mentioned.  And you intend to make the changes necessary.  well...

My swinging experinces don't fit with your post.  I think that you might start swinging at swing clubs before expecting to connect with others for your own parties. I think that several swing clubs are not all that nice and that the people are a little rough around the edges.  So one must shop for nice locations to have a nice time.  In the begining you will be the odd new person and scrutinized.

Most clubs will screen heavily to eliminate the problems, but they tend to remain, if on a subsurface level.  There is a rule that women call the shots at the clubs because guys tend to start to take things into their own hands so to speak.  So you must have manners.

I think that a common problem is that too many of the ladies only go because they want to please their guys and really don't like it once they are into it.  To have a really good experience and repeat it you need to be with a woman who knows what she is doing and wants to do it.

This leads to the next issue.  I really see swinging as a couples oriented thing.  Those who do it are IMHO in good solid relationships and swinging inhances that.  I think that you will have a difficult time going to a club as a single guy.  Many clubs just don't allow it and some reserve special nights for single guys to attend.  Even then you may find that you need to associate with a couple to get in.

Bottom line is that I think you need to spend some serious coin and find those clubs that will allow single guys to attend and to there first.  Even if it means traveling out of town.  Then you will get the experience and from that a position of understanding that will let you be on the inside of the lifestyle.

OK OK I won't rumble and bumble any more. Geez. Sorry sorry sorry.

Anyway ...

Thanks, good advice therein. So, you don't think it's plausible to "pick up" as a girlfriend a female who is also positive about the notion of swinging, and then move into swinging as a couple with her as the entry ticket? I had assumed that (as you imply several times) being a single male would significantly handicap entrance into the community; but from that assumption I then made the corollary assumption that I would have to HAVE a partner before going to the clubs. You seem to be implying otherwise.

Comments? Further commentary?

To get into swinging you have to have your girlfriend FIRST. *shrugs*... that's the way it is.  Most swing clubs and events are either couples only, or couples and single WOMEN only... no single men allowed! They really look with serious disdain upon single men because so MANY single men are looking to get into it.

One thing to consider is that if you cannot make a relationship work, there is no way you are going to be able to add a more complex lifestyle like swinging/poly and make THAT work. It's harder, not easier!  Keep doing your research online and keep searching for what you want, but do not be surprised if it takes you a long, long time to find it.

Hugs*
Nicole

I've never even considered swinging, so there's nothing I can say in that regard that might be helpful to you.  However, as others have taken you to task a bit regarding the length/style of your post, I just thought I'd let you know that I didn't find it to be that way at all.  You're very thorough in providing background & explaining your thought process.  Personally, I don't mind that at all...I'd rather read a post like that than one so brief that I'm unsure where the poster is coming from.

Thanks for your comments. But I never said I couldn't make a relationship work. (You were assuming that? Sorry, if you weren't.) I said I wasn't good at STARTING relationships of the sort I'd like. I've always been quite successful once the ice has BEEN broken. It's the INITIATION that's the hard part ...

Anyway, I do agree with you, that being the "dreaded single male" (no doubt looking for "hot bi babes") is probably a difficult path into the lifestyle. Hmm. Maybe if I REALLY work on my pecs ... heh ...

As you said below, it is (almost) a catch 22.  You can't easily get in without a girl, and you can't (easily) find a willing partner.

That's why I suggested trying the clube which will allow single men.  For one, they will give you an exposure to the inside and a chance to make some contacts.  And some of those contacts (or arrangements)can be of value even from another state.  For example, you will likely have to go through a screening and pay a mambership fee (as well as a fee for that night).  That membership is a begining.  If you can pass on a reference to the more local club.  Then you MAY, by phone, be able to negotiate a contact with a local couple to sponser you into the next club.

For another, those single-men-invited-nights often bring out ladies who know singles men may be there and who enjoy that sort of play.

Remember, your behavior is paramount.  Once in, I suggest you lay low and observe until you get a handle on how things work.