With all the news about sexual harassment and workplace impropriety, I’ve been thinking about my hobbying and worrying about whether we mongers are transgressing in the same or similar territory as a Weinstein, Spacey or a Moore. To me what Weinstein and the others have brought to the fore is an awareness of the rampant use of power for non-consensual sex.
The monger relationship is transactional. We exchange money for sex. There’s an old saying about money and power. Is the exchange an abuse of power on our part? I worry that maybe the overarching paradigm is problematic in a way that transcends consent on the part of the provider. The discussion “so why did you decide to become an escort” that’s been going on for a couple of weeks is informative, there are obviously lots of super-empowered actualized women in the profession but likely not all are. And if there’s grey area what to do with that. I’m very curious to hear opinions from both sides of the fence. Are we all Harveys?To the extent that Harvey was a bad boy, is that he preyed upon (we presume) women who didn't want a sexual relationship. Sex workers signed up for that. It's called volition. We presume people have volition as adults and don't need to be treated as if they were children.
I really think "sexual harassment" shouldn't be a legal matter. Of course any private institution can have whatever code of conduct they want. Sexual assaults, aka assault, should, of course, be a legal matter.
Forget Hollywood for a moment. How about if a hot girl (or even not hot) shows up for an interview for any kind of job, the type of job really doesn't matter, only to be told that if she won't hop in bed with the owner she is not going to get the job, are you saying this type of behavior should not be a legal matter?
I will concede that the PC police have gone completely overboard to the point that if a guy tells a dirty joke in front of a woman at work, that woman can file a complaint about a "hostile work environment". We do need some common sense where this kind of thing is concerned, but to say all "sexual harassment" should not be a legal matter is ridiculous.
I think if mongers act and operate within the bounds of the agreed upon transaction, then no.
That being said, it happens all the time. If, for example, the provider doesn't offer CIM and you forcefully grab her head, ram your cock down her throat and CIM, then yes, you've crossed the line.
Similarly, men think if we keep asking (no condom), and she consents - then that stands as her saying, yes. Difference between men and women, to women, that is not consent - but you forcing the issue. You may say she said yes, but in her mind she didn't have a choice. The client may be bigger, stronger, "angry" and she just wants him gone. Women in general, have to use their heads, not their physical size to get a man out the door. I see this especially with asian providers, because culture plays a part in it. I read it all the time, "She said yes" or "She didn't mind", or "she didn't say no".
I'm sure Weinstein has made those same comments, "I figured it was ok, heck, she came up to my bedroom. What did she think was going to happen?". Sound familiar? Switch the wording a bit, "I paid for sex, I'm going to do what I want for an hour, she took my money". Reading reviews like, "I pounded the shit out of her". Doesn't sound like exchange for sex, but a power-play to me.
I would say these micro-agrressions take place all the time in the workplace. If I'm your boss, you're a mid-level manager, and I ask you to go get me a cup of coffee across the street at Starbucks, and you're in the middle of a project, is that right? Its not in your job description, the coffee is just for me (I'm not getting you one, too), and you don't want to do it. Is that ok? Or, do you feel a bit of resentment because you're my lackey and I'm the boss? You're living paycheck-to-paycheck, your review is coming up, and I determine the size of your bonus, or whether you get one at all. I'm MAKING you do it, because I'm the boss. Same thing, or its your job, just do it.
-- Modified on 11/15/2017 3:47:58 AM
As for me, I don't feel even the slightest bit of guilt. I am not trying to coerce women that are "on the fence" about being a hooker. I am responding to women advertising their services.
Now please go fuck yourself and do it now.
....i started dabbling in this hobby.
We advertise and ask for it. Its completely different.
Nope you were clearly raped. All your clients are rapists and have left you horribly damaged on a mental, physical, and emotional level.
Arent you an FBI agent according to past posts?
Wait you must be on some kind of drugs Mr FBI agent. 3 hours ago you say you didnt rape anyone. Now youre saying everyone rapes me. Talk about being damaged mentally. You are having arguments with yourself. ☝️
I AM AN FBI AGENT!
I know man, ain't it wild?
Oh wait if they stop sucking your dick, having sex with you, posting lame topless photos and posting their materialistic shopping spree, they might have to actually get a REAL job like us guys
There have been times, not many, when meeting a young lady and in conversation it turned out that she was either in a desperate situation financially or was into "other illegal activities" which required large sums of money. To me it felt like I was now exerting power over her just because of the money, so I would not return to see her again.
Now if I did return to see her I would definitely feel like a Harvey
If she initiates the meeting (by advertising for example) then you're treating her like a child by assuming she's too stupid to make her own decisions.
My beef with some of this "harassment" (as distinct from physical assault) is that it presumes women are defenseless brainless creatures. A lot of women put up with Harvey because they wanted to be a movie star. That's not exactly a life threatening issue.
If you had to have sex against your will with your boss to advance your career, would that be fine and dandy?
and the quality of the job should make no difference. People think movie stars have it so easy because once they make it they make mega-bucks, but a lot of these "overnight success" stories have only come after years and years of struggle and a lot of Ramen soup dinners.
If it's ok to force a woman to have sex against her will in order to become a movie star, how about the poor woman who desperately needs a waitressing job to feed her kids, is it ok for the manager to demand sex before hiring her? Sometime I just don't get how tone deaf SH can be.
but most women are dumb and aren't into the technical field....
Cry me a fucking river, everyone struggle to make it in life, what makes a actress or model any different doing the same
They milk their looks and yet get offended when someone take advantage of them... If women have a issue with Hollywood, lets see how far the movie industry will last when every actress looks like Rosie O'Donnell
You misunderstand (as usual.) I'm not saying they should blow uncle Harvey, I'm saying they should call him out on it. Once they make the choice to blow him, it is no longer possible for outsiders to ascertain the nature of the original actions. Some women do sleep their way to the top. They can blackmail with harassment claims. Your method makes women always innocent. My method makes them responsible. Don't blow guys that don't have a gun to your head.
and I am hardly a BSU who believes the accuser is always innocent, but when a young woman is up against a powerful man like Weinstein who not only tells her she won't get "that" part she wants so desperately, but that "she will never work in this town again" if she doesn't yield to him, it's pretty easy to get on your high horse and tell here she should simply "stand up for herself" It's simply not a fair fight sometimes.
I don't have a "method" and your method is simply unrealistic.
We can apply the same logic as in the waitress case I just outlined.
Girl wants to be a star.
Producer is under no obligation to hire her.
Case 1: Sends her away.
Case 2: Gets sex, makes her a star.
Your mistake is smuggling the assumption that the waitress would have got the job or the actress would have got the part regardless of providing sex. This doesn't need to be the case, and often isn't the case.
The availability of sex for opportunity actually gives the woman more choices. That's just the logic of the situation.
So it was not merely coercion but he held them down and forced himself on them
-- Modified on 11/15/2017 3:53:39 PM
Admin just takes a sick pleasure in watching us agree completely for a change on this board.
I honestly can't believe just how clueless SH is on this subject. It reminds me of Nancy Reagan preaching "just say no" as if that would cure everything.
Let's break the waitress case down a litte:
Desperate waitress with starving family asks for job.
We all agree that an employer is under no obligation to hire anyone.
Case 1: Employer sends her away, children starve to death.
Case 2: Employer demands sex for job, gets sex, hires her. Children live.
How can you be so heartless to oppose children living?
Good lord, I've walked away for far less than that.
Because politicians have sex too? Because some politicians are guilty of sexual harassment, or are mongers? Don't see it being discussed in a religious context either!
This is one of the few posts you have made where I agree with you 100%, with ZERO reservations. That in itself should be PROOF that this thread does not belong on P&R.
This thread is as "on topic" as any thread I have ever read on GD.
I wondered that myself. Originally posted it on the General board.
Some of this conversation is interesting and some of it isn't. My reason for posting isn't very political. It's personal.
I got into the hobby about five years ago. I love it. I love women, love sex, love the thrill of meeting new people in unusual circumstances and don't feel the slightest bit guilty about any of that. I'd never wittingly see anyone who didn't make an active choice to see me. The hobby has opened my world, given me peace and strength. I own a business, have female managers and employees who I support and who I think are awesome except when they're not. It's important to me to make a reasonable and safe workplace for them and for the moronic men in it too, indeed for all the circus clowns male, female or otherwise who cartwheel around the company everyday. I like the hobby, I just don't want to indulge in it blindly and then look back and realize I've been an asshole all these years.
that the mere fact that your paying a hooker to suck on your cock makes you an asshole. Go ask some of YOUR female employee's and ask them what they think. I'm sure they will still consider you a nice guy.
Kinda what I'm getting at. Hah. But much or all of the judgement could be stigma/inhibition. I don't go in for that.