What is the common definition of this term in Hobbyland. Some (providers and white knights especially) regard any sort of negotiation as haggling, as well as any attempt to get lower rates at all (including covert or implied negotiation). Which comes off as ridiculous to me.  

I haven't been in the hobby long and I've talked myself into lower rates. By which I mean I would have paid more money had I not in the very least broached the subject with the provider. In the real world I wouldn't consider that haggling whatsoever. In the hobby world, I've only ever asked about what I've come to know as standard sorts of discounts. You know, being grandfathered in at old rates, exploiting special rates, negotiating rates for unusual requests. Surely that doesn't rise to the level of haggling.

Depending, of course, upon how one asks. Maybe it all comes down to the guy doing the negotiating.

-- Modified on 12/29/2016 5:49:53 PM

There is a recent thread that's a mile long at this point on this question

... petty and/or contentious manner... more arguing than discussing.  

I think it's possible to have a discussion about rates under certain circumstances while being respectful.  For example, negotiating rates for special situations not covered by the provider's rate schedule--I've done that.  Or taking advantage of a special rate offered by the provider.  I've also been grandfathered into old rates a few times, but I've always chosen in those cases to pay the provider's current rate, as I thought it was reasonable.  

But trying to negotiate rates for something covered by the provider's published rate schedule, especially when the provider is clear that they are non-negotiable, gets into haggling territory IMO.

You mean the posted, non-negotiable rates are not like pirate rules?! I'm shocked.

That's actually why I started this thread. Because the responses were more about how he in particular had haggled, not so much about haggling in general.

....but never over a woman sharing her body with me.

... there's a risk associated with the potential reward:  you could piss off a provider you'd really like to meet, and she puts you on her DNS list. If you don't mind that risk, go ahead, Captain Barbossa.

Most gals hate it, so don't do it.

That's not to say that at some point a gal will not suggest a lower rate herself, generally for longer and/or more frequent sessions.  As long as she is suggesting it, then it's OK to accept, but otherwise don't go there

See a Street Walker. You can probably Haggle for a lower price than what she wants. For the Well Reviewed Escorts Haggling isn't a good idea.

END OF MESSAGE

Excellent point! As soon as rates get mentioned by a new to me client, it's one polite warning and the conversation ends if they continue or throw another red flag.  
The only time I can really think of that I consider haggling or negotiating acceptable is if it's someone I have an established provider/client relationship with and we are discussing something out of the ordinary such as an extended arrangement or travel fee.

Because that allows the gals to moe easily offer me lower than advertised pricing.

Win/win.

"Haggle", "negotiate", "asking for a discount", etc all the same thing to me really. Just a means to an end for two people to get what they want.

The point is, two consenting adults should be able to do what they want. Many stuffed shirts here think that a woman is too stupid to act in her best interests. That is not my experience.

I just find it ironic that the people here who claim to never negotiate, just know for certain how bad it is. LOL. "The girl will tank the session", is always one of my favs. Again, not my experience.

Approach is everything in any negotiation. Come off as a jerk, and the negotiation will proly go badly. But having both parties best interests at heart can lead to a mutually satisfiable agreement.

Virtually everything in life is negotiable. Doctors, lawyers, plumbers, houses, cars, etc so why would sex be any different? The fact is, it isn't.

Many, many women her negotiate, and have admitted such on these very boards. Maybe not every day, with every person in every situation but somewhere along the way I believe most have made a "special arrangement."

Call it what you want. It is all negotiating. Or haggling. No need get hung up on the verbiage.

END OF MESSAGE

It does matter. Because "haggling" has a negative connotation, and if any and all negotiation--or all negotiation initiated by the client with the aim of lowering the price--an be redefined as haggling in common hobby parlance, people can get the idea that all negotiation is frowned upon. Which it obviously isn't, as I know from personal experience and from reading reviews and these boards.

It could go the other way, I guess, and "haggling" could be redefined downwards to the point where people think haggling is no big deal. But that's not the direction I sense it heading.

But I have done it, and haven't noticed any difference in service. So if they hate it, they've kept it to themselves. I've also read enough reviews and comments to know that fellas do it and ladies allow it, so is this just your personal rule, or are you suggesting these are all anomalies? Is it really a big no-no, or is it about manners? Manners which vary from person to person and situation to situation.

I see a vast gulf between the way people talk about haggling and the way the hobby actually happens in real life.

If they ignore your warning they're just bad negotiators, is all. And idiots.  

I always ask permission first to talk about anything explicit (fetishes, etc.). But I come right out with questions about rates. Not necessarily to negotiate; I always like to confirm the rate, because I'm paranoid like that. Is that in itself a red flag? If so, I've red-flagged every lady I've ever seen. I've never been put on DNS lists, so far as I know. Every one I've asked to see again has accepted.

A yellow one.

I post rates on my site. The only other place they're posted is on TER, and my profile is accurate.  

It's not a huge deal-breaker if someone asks me 'how much for 2 hours' or even 'is the 2-hour rate on your site accurate.' But I always feel on guard, like he might be trying to start a dialogue. 'Oh, it is 1000 like on your site? Well, for some reason I thought I saw 700. I really can't do 1000 at this time.'  

If she has a site that's obviously professional and maintained, why (aside from some discrepancy, i.e. rates being higher on an Eros ad than on her site) there's a need to ask if the rates she posted are accurate.  

Just not necessary, and off-putting. No, not an automatic DNS unless I get the dreaded 'dialogue,' though

Pro's run business totally different than legit businesses. out here.Pro's going to get pissed customers bitching about pro's rates.Pro's start saying it my business and I can run it anyway I want too.

'Negotiating/haggling' with the negative connotation, is when you say, 'Well, I see that your rate is $500, will you accept $300?' With no reason or justification. Providers hate that... deeply resent it, even.  

In your original post, you said that you asked 1) To be grandfathered, 2) About specials, or 3) About special requests due to fetishes etc.  

Grandfathering is not really 'negotiation' - it is something of a convention in this industry (although some girls choose not to do it). If specials rates are posted, then why NOT ask about them? She posted those for a reason. I can't be a witness to #3, as fetish-only sessions are not my area of expertise.

Now, if you saw a new girl, and/or a girl you've seen a few times - and said, 'Gee, well $1000 sure does sound like a LOT for two hours. I only have $800 today.' THAT is what people are saying is considered boorish, and YES that will potentially get you DNS'd.  

Sure, there are SOME exceptions.... and circumstances vary between a provider and a regular client. For instance, I have a client I've seen for 6+ years. I met him with an agency. He pays my 1-hour (minimum) rate, but I'll get a hotel and we are flexible as to time (I won't do that for anybody else). But, I have a significant relationship with him, and I wouldn't want to (or feel right about) cutting him off, and also, he makes it easier for me by traveling to meet me halfway. That's an agreement that developed over time. However, if any new client asked me for a similar arrangement, I'd label his email with a big red tag, and wouldn't even answer him again (except maybe my generic 'Please do not contact me again' email).  

'Haggling' in that sense... 'Hey, your rates are EXPENSIVE!!! You gotta gimme a break!! Can I get a discount for being cute??? I give a greeaaaat back rub!!!'  is nowhere near the norm, and it's definitely frowned upon... among successful, established, professional escorts like the ones who post here, anyway.  

It's worth saying also that some arrangements have a shelf life. I had to cut a few of my grandfathered agency clients off, because 1) I was resenting seeing them for a lower price, especially as they tended to book 1 hour and overstay, and 2) They tried to take the mile when I gave them the inch. After a few years established at my new rates (and with new clients who were more respectful of my time and business) it just didn't feel worth it to me anymore

You do realize that was joking and not a serious post? Glad you got the movie reference but I think it was Capt'n Jack that first mentioned the rules being more like guidelines

Looks like your experience is only in Minnesota so that might make a significant difference in what is and is not acceptable behavior.

I have never considered attempting to negotiate since my very early days and then only with a couple of independents working in the area. I never actually broached the subject with them and now work with some bookers that I would never consider such an attempt -- and am certain it would terminate the relationship in this market.

-- Modified on 12/30/2016 8:18:42 AM

But I think you're getting at a different thing here JD. That most have "made a 'special arrangement'" is much different that them wanting to have a discussion about rates (if if approached well and not as a jerk) with every fucking client!

That's where I think those suggesting not haggling (by whatever name) is a bad general policy. There are plenty of alternatives here and if you don't like the rates someone lists find someone else. That said, it's also true the we're getting the perspective from a bunch of different locations and situations (indie versus agency; large, big city markets and small low population area markets; top tier providers and clients, mid tier...) I suspect some locations expect negotiation where as others will toss you the street for even being in the same room with the word.

I had assumed most people meant something close to what's considered haggling in the real world. However, you'll notice a poster above said anything that implies you want a lower price is haggling. Where does that leave grandfathering, for instance, which as you say is a conventional discount? I can an understand providers not wanting to negotiate with every client or potential client, and friendly clients sticking up for them. But why must they propagate false rules to do so?

I get the sense that there are people who want to place one set of pseudo-conventions beside the actual conventions of the hobbying world. Which confuses newbies like me. I learned from experience that anti-haggling/negotiating sentiment is not like leaving an envelope in plain sight within the first few minutes or not engaging in explicit talk before you meet. Yet people talk about it like it is. What gives?

-- Modified on 12/30/2016 1:04:09 PM

Is it the difference between D.C. and Minneapolis, whatever that would be? I pretty much only ever deal with independent girls, maybe that makes a difference.

You’ve lost me.  

What type of “false rules” are we propagating?  

You can email me, ask for a discount, and see if there are any “false rules” at play, as far as negotiating/haggling. I’d ‘pseudo-convention’ you a new asshole, lol (not really, I’d probably just delete and ignore). Same goes for most other ladies of my acquaintance, and as far as I can tell, most who post on this board. My doubles partner has actually DNS’d clients regular simply for overstaying!

I feel like you’re trying to propagate the idea that there *is* a pseudo-convention, as far as haggling. But there’s not. I’m sure that even Jack will tell you that emailing a random girl, and asking her if she can see you for $400/hr when her rate is $500/hr is a bad idea (you might get super-lucky, and find a girl with some really bad money management skills and a nasty cocaine habit. But that’s pretty darn lucky - if you consider that ‘lucky’). The most likely outcome is that your email will be deleted.

You also seem to have some idea that there are “actual conventions” where a significant amount of guys pay below-market rates. However, it’s not true for me. What it says on my site, is how I expect things to be, and how things generally are. That’s been true for most girls I’ve met. In general, girl I know (and from chatter on boards) disparage discount-seekers.  

My ONE client to whom I half-grandfather/half-discount is the rare exception for me. And, as I said, that’s an outgrowth of a relationship that’s developed over years. Relatively few regular clients have even tried to get a discount. I’m trying to remember the last time anybody tried to haggle with me… while I had a reviewer basically extort free time (I never saw him again and WOULD never see him again), the last one I can remember was last August (that’s August 2015, or a year and a half ago). He gave me the old, ‘Oh, I thought I saw an overnight listed on another site for $2000.’ I didn’t DNS him, but he didn’t get an overnight, discounted or otherwise. And, might I add, it was NOT a long-lived relationship. At one point, I advised him to seek elsewhere (offered him a reference) and I think he took my advice. Good for him.  

I’ve had a few nut jobs ask cold-contact me with, ‘$400/hr? Incall?’ or the like, and I didn’t even reply.  

As I said above, I also get prickly when a guy even asks me ‘how much,’ as I do have that posted on my site for a reason (and not because it’s a topic for debate).  

Also, as I’ve said, in all but one case, when I was new and did offer a discount (grandfathering or otherwise) the arrangement was not long-lived. I’m not saying I gave worse service, but as time passed, I was always “busy” when they wanted to book with me.  

Generally speaking, Mr. Fisher is absolutely correct. Discounts are sometimes offered. ‘Arrangements’ can be worked out with regulars. But it’s always best to let the girl offer herself, if she’s so inclined.  

If you’ve experienced differently, consider yourself VERY lucky (but don’t gloat - that’s unattractive) - and treat her VERY nicely, so that she doesn’t fire your ass as soon as she gets some money in her bank account.  

***P. S. Just as I was about to post this, I read above that you’re seeing providers on drugs. LOL. Explains it all.**

End of the day, it is trying to get a product/service at a lower price. Haggling? Negotiating? Whatever. Since I don't mention either word whilst doing it, it is irrelevant to me.

If it makes you happier to say "negotiate" rather than "haggle" then go for it.

It is a difference without a distinction, in my mind.

Mr. Fisher said saying anything that implies you want a lower rate is haggling, which is supposed to be a bad thing. You yourself said there are conventional discounts, like grandfathering. Which it's possible to get without asking, but I understand it's not forbidden to ask. So there you go. The false rule being propagated is that you never talk about lower rates. That's not a rule.  

Which isn't to say that there's a secret market, hidden from the suckers, where a significant portion of clients are paying lower rates. I wouldn't know about that, and don't claim any knowledge of it. I can only go by my personal experience and what I've read on the boards and in reviews. According to them, Mr. Fisher is misleading me.

By the way, I don't know why you've turned on me, especially over the above thread. I don't consider it my fault that I met an intoxicated provider, though by now I know better. That was very early in my hobbying, and I learned from the experience. She is not representative of the providers I've seen or negotiated with.  

This is supposed to be a newbie board. I don't know why I'd be denigrated for making a newbie mistake.

I understand what you're saying, and it doesn't matter what I call it personally. But it matters what terms people use on boards like this, which are intended to teach new hobbyists the ins and outs. If they're given bad information it could sour their hobby experience. Part of good advice is properly defining terms, especially supposed no-nos.

exceptional sometimes grandfather hobbyists who were influential or helpful in the beginning of their business.

People here usually advise against negotiating with a new provider, pre-date. For good reason.  

After you’ve met (or established rapport) then it’s still advised to proceed with EXTREME caution. Sure, she might accept. But, you might lose her, forever.  

There is no orthodoxy that says that discounts are NEVER given, or NEVER to ask. You might want to do some more research, if that's what you're perceiving.

I'll let someone else chime in, from here. I'm done.

-- Modified on 12/30/2016 8:46:22 PM

And I have countless posts on this board stating I don't think it is wise for a newbie to negotiate. This is the "John 101" board and haggling is advanced trick mathematics. lol

Good point.

I raised a few that I had seen for quite a long time slightly recently as it seemed reasonable to do- still lower than stated donations

From your posts, I'm uncertain that you understand the term "grandfathering" in this context. It's not simply a discount given to favored customers. Grandfathering is when a provider raises her rates but decides to allow a favorite customer to continue paying at the old rate. If you haven't been seeing a provider long enough to see her rates go up, then grandfathering is irrelevant to your situation.

At the bottom line, you are free to attempt to bargain providers down, and they are free to ignore you or deny your requests. If you keep seeing different girls, you are only likely to successfully bargain with the ones that can't attract regulars. If you become a repeat customer with a given provider, you are more likely to eventually get a discount or grandfathered in if her rates go up, but it isn't a certain thing. There are no rules or even firm guidelines that you are likely to learn here or anywhere else, because this will be a specific arrangement reached between two people with their own priorities and needs.

I know what grandfathering is, thanks.