I'm not a kid, and to me a PDA is a "Pathetic Damned Asshole".
Let me begin by saying the provider and myself both live in Los Angeles. And I am not going to name any names because I am not looking to punish anyone, get back at anyone, or do harm to anyone's reputation or business. I'm curious if any of you share my point of view, or should I just be a lot more cynical and not extend myself to help anyone in this business ever again.
With the exception of one or two times, I've been seeing only one provider for over a year, who is an independent. We have also become friends and do things together "off the clock. She says she struggling for money, so I introduced her to one of the "high-end" agencies in New York who I've done business with in the past. I made the introduction primarily to help my friend out.
When I spoke to the agency about her, I asked about a "finder's fee" because I had been paid one the only other time I referred a girl to an agency. I am not in the business of making money referring escorts to agencies and was only paid a finder's fee that one time. Believing that it is standard business practice for an agency to pay a finder's fee, I asked the owner of the agency about it. When asked how much I wanted, I said $3,000 because that's what another agency had paid me about 2 years ago. I was told that was too much by the agency.
So I explained to the owner of the agency that I'm really doing this to help out my friend and the finder's fee isn't my primary motivation, but since it is standard practice to pay a finder's fee, I'll gladly take it. We agreed on $1,000.
Next thing I know, the provider is working with the agency and I was never paid a finder's fee. I wasn't even told that she had begun working for the agency. I hadn't seen the provider for a couple months but was in constant contact with her via email. When I asked the provider what happened, why wasn't I told about any of this, she said, " The owner of the agency wanted to work with her, but did not want to pay a finder's fee. So the provider told the owner, "Fine, I'll work for you anyway."
It's not the money that's reallly at issue here. What I am pissed off about are two things. Firstly, I think the right thing for the provider (who I know very well and is a friend outside the "hobby") to have done was to call me and say, "I've got to go to work for this agency even though you won't get your finder's fee. Is that cool with you." At which point I would have said fine, being that I was primarily doing it to help her out anyway; not for the money. But it was all kept secret from me for weeks.
What angers me more is what happened when I asked her to do an overnight hotel stay with me for my birthday. I've done two hotel overnights with her already and have paid her thousands upon thousands of dollars over the last year.
First of all, I believe in "rewarding" steady and loyal clients in any business by throwing them a "bone" every so often. Secondly, to thank me for setting her up with a major agency in NY that will give her work in both NY and LA, I would have thought that she might have said, "To thank you for making those dozens of phone calls and hyping me to that agnecy, let me do something special for you on your birthday. Especially since you aren't getting the finder's fee." I would expect that she would have done an overnight at hotel with me for either a reduced rate or even gratis, considering how much she's already made from me as a very loyal client and the fact that I set her up with this agency.
I know this is a business. I know her time is valuable. But are all the woman in this business so Machiavellian that they never think about giving something back to very loyal and consistent clients who also go out of their way to really help them? Any other business, you'd take a good client out to lunch for his or her birthday or send them a gift at holiday time to thank them for their business.
I'm just wondering what the rest of you think about this.
there was nothing philanthropic or friendlike in what you did ...you did not give for the sake of giving you had something you wanted in return...that is not frendship it is manipulation
First of all, I will never name names. I will never mention the name of the agency nor will I mention the name of the provider. I am not seeking to make anyone's life more difficult or to seek revenge. It serves no purpose.
Mary, I clearly pointed out that I was motivated primarily by the desire to help her out. By expecting to recieve a traditional finder's fee for what I did DOES NOT contaminate the purity of my motivation. I would have tried to help her get with the agency even if there was not traditional finder's fee in this business. IF YOU STOP A CRIME IN PROGRESS SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, WOULD YOU TURN DOWN A REWARD? I DON'T THINK SO. As I CLEARLY STATED in my original posting, if she had just come to me instead of going behind my back, I would have GLADLY SURRENDERED the finder's fee. But it was the sneakiness that pisses me off.
And there is supposed to be a reciprocity of kindness in our society. When invited to somone's home for dinner, don't we tradtionally bring a gift to show gratitude? If you continually had a couple over for dinner, but they never asked you over to their home for dinner, how would you feel? Would you claim you would keep inviting them with no expectation of a return invitation.
And my dissapointment in the provider for not doing something for my birthday after being a very loyal and consistent client for a year AND after getting her connected with this agency is simply disheartening for me because it demonstrates the kind of world that we live in.
I never really did expect anything back from her because I know how people behave these days compared to decades past when self-centeredness wasn't so rampant. I would have been pleasantly surprised if she had done something. But I have come to expect very little from people in society these days. And I have come to expect even less from providers. I believe that 90% of providers don't see a man walking through that door. They see a wallet walking through that door.
...not the girl!!! Albeit, she should have at least acknowledged your birthday, a thanks for the connection, ...something.... but take that up with her privately!!! I try to remember birthdays, "anniversaries", special occassions, ...but it is hard... That does not mean that our heart is not in it. No matter how special you are... THERE"S ALWAYS SOMEONE BETTER....
So, take it up with the agency, chalk it up with the girl, and F***IN move on.....
and when he doesn't get the opinion he wants, he cries like a pussy....speaks vo;umes to your character or lack thereof....
I expect that his selfish motive of trying to capitalize on his selfless act of helping his provider/friend will disrupt his life for some time to come....
My dad used to say "don't do anything expecting something back - do it because you think its right. MM you're 100% correct the Fixer is no more than a cheap pimp, even if he won't admit it to himself.
Wrong to look for a fee instead of doing
a favor.
WRONG to complain about it on the Board.
There are so many issues going on here it would make one dizzy!!!!
First, there's you volunteering to "help your friend out"... For that, you should expect nothing. Expect nothing and you are never disappointed. Yes, your friend should be more generous with her time, but that is a serperate issue.
Second, you have the agency that agreed to the 1000. There is a verbal contract and you are entitled to that when your friend became employed, however enforcement of that is difficult. You can slame them or threaten them, but you must also weigh what is at stake for you.
There are other issues, and I have experienced most of this also. I try to play the devil's advocate, but it always boils down to one simple comment:
IT IS WHAT IT IS.......
-- Modified on 5/3/2006 5:05:18 PM
If you really "cared" about this girl and held the most admirable intentions, then why refer her to a high volume, high-end agency in the first place? Personally, I think your motives were misplaced......
...you sold her out to a low end, cheap factory!!!!
.... a cut of a high end deal with a high end provider.... That's even WORSER (sp) lol.... You should be ashamed of yourself.....
Get the 1000 finders' fee and consider yourself lucky....
"get your money boy, go on and get your money boy...."
While this may not be exactly on point, mr. scriptfixer as some of you may recall, was a one man PR firm for the legendary accident waiting to happen Jason at New York Confidential. His pubescent whining here is if nothing else, amusing.
I could cite chapter and verse - but if I did, Mr. Fixer would get offended, throw a tantrum and demand a public apology. So I'll refrain.
(But a search for posts by a certain poster about a certain pimp with a date range of, oh let's say, 800 to 400 days ago could be intriguing.)
-- Modified on 5/3/2006 8:00:07 PM
Yes, I was seduced by Jason and his opertation and was a very happy client was thrilled to extol his virtues on the disc. bd.
He was my best friend sending me great treats and always being accommodating when possible on hrs. or rates.
Then he fucked up and fucked some people over. I was pissed and no longer looked so favorably upon him. However, as time passed and I reflected on the situation, I began to feel sorry for him. I felt sorry for a guy who has so much talent, intelligence, and charisma to flush his life down the toilet by doing stupid things.
We all go through different phases of relationships with everyone in our lives. My relationship with Jason was no different.
Nevertheless, I don't see what the fuck this all has to do with my most recent post, other than some slime has to crawl out from under a rock and dredge up the ancient past to try to humiliate or discredit him. Hmmmm. Sounds like the Republican party.
it was not I who who "dredge[d] up the ancient past" in this thread - I merely commented upon a digression made by someone else with a memory. (Or is following a thread more difficult for you than following a script?)
And there is hardly a need to dredge up the past to humiliate you. Have you not noticed that there is a certain unanimity in ALL of the opinions expressed by EVERY one of the contributors to this thread, other than you?
Hmmm...Wants something for nothing, has alterior motives masked by altruism, not willing to accept ANY responsibility...sounds like the Democratic Party
-- Modified on 5/3/2006 5:53:43 PM
for you even though you mention WAY too many times that it is not. You admit haggling with 2 separate agencies about $6000 in "finder's fees". You reluctantly settled for $1000 the second time around. Fixer, you sound like a 3rd rate shyster attorney, and I have to agree with Frankie that you are SAD! My assessment of you would have been harsher.
-- Modified on 5/3/2006 6:10:26 PM
Where did I say I haggled with 2 separate agencies about $6,000? Nowhere. I said I once referred a girl to an agency and unexpectedly was given $3,000. I just expected the same. I said $1,000 was fine. I NEVER SAID I SETTLED IT FOR IT RELUCTANTLY. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?
This is NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!! The money is a metaphor, a simple incident that speak to a greater issue. That people are selfish and self-centered.
If you don't believe my primary motivation was to help her, then fuck yourself. You don't fuckin' know me or what I am really like. I simply was shocked and surprised that the finder's fee was not offered.
And I was shocked that a "friend" doesn't show more consideration. You're right. I can just move on. But I value friendships a little more than you do, perhaps. And I believed that this was a friendship as much as it was a provider relationshihp because we did so much together off the clock including going out with her and her daughter. Of course, I always paid on those occasions as well. I don't just walk away from genuine friendships because I've been slighted. However, I expect the other side to make as much of an effort as I do to have a meeting of the minds and to resolve the conflict.
No one gives a shit about friends anymore in this society. Everyone is too plugged into their video games, their computers, their big screen tvs, their sidekicks and pda, and their "friends" on MySpace.
Everyone who is coming down so hard on me is probably relatively young and has no fucking clue as to what society's sense of ettiquette would have dictated 30 years ago. This is the most self absorbed, egocentric generation. Either that, or I'm getting a microcosm of today's generation by bringing up this issue on TER. A group of guys who would rather have a mindless and heartless fuck, rather than really communicate with someone on all levels, not just sexual.
I'm shocked that so many people question my integrity and my true motivation. I have no reason to lie on this board. If I said I did it primarily out of a desire to help someone, don't you assume I'm being straightforward and honest? Why would I lie on this board?
I'm not a kid, and to me a PDA is a "Pathetic Damned Asshole".
... as you admitted.... 30 years ago is generous and life is not to you.....
You are a self-centered, egotistical, moneterial jerk like the man you proclaim to NOT be like... GOOD LUCK,MF....... Your motivativation is much differant than ours.... it is self centered, egotistical, and distigusting.....
this "friend" of yours does not like you as much as you thought she did.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, take the advice given by another above and move on.
I've been honest and truthful about my motivation. My actions speak for themselves. I never wrote up an agreement and I haven't badgered the agency for the finder's fee.
I never believe the 99% of the b.s. that 99% of the providers spew out about how much they like you and can't wait to see you again, I mean, see your wallet again.
But occassionally you meet someone who really does become a friend. I've made friends with several escorts who I have never seen as a client and never will. We are simply friends. But then some "friends' reveal their true selves. It seems that despite protestations to the contrary, 99.99% of the providers in this business are SOLELY in it for the money and would step on your back to go pick up a dollar that blew away in the wind without even a second thought.
Show me a single escort that puts ethics and consideration for another person's feelings ahead of their desire to stuff their bank accounts with money, and I'll sell you Manhattan island for a handful of trinkets and beads.
ever heard of to negotiate a finder's fee in this business, and you've done it NOT Once, but TWICE. You've mentioned the finder's fee 30 times in this thread. I reiterate my assessment of you as a Shyster.
-- Modified on 5/3/2006 7:27:50 PM
You want to get paid when she works and you want her to do you for free or for a discount. Where I come from, they call that pimping!
If I tell my friend that someone I know is hiring and they get a job there, I don't expect the employer to pay me for my friend. I don't own that person.
When one of my friends does some professional work for me, I don't expect to get it for free. If they offer I may accept a discount, but only after a protest.
This girl works for her money and you are a client who pays her. Your hobby is her livelihood. You are in the stronger financial position. It's disingenuous for you to act surprised that she wouldn't offer you a freebee, especially when she told you she's having money troubles!
For all your protesting that it's not about the money and that you didn't expect it, you are sure grousing a lot about not getting it.
You don't sound like a friend to me. Friends with money don't haggle with friends without it. Friends don't ask to be paid for favors. People who post about others not paying them are not acting like friends. You may not have told us who she us, but she certainly knows you and your situation and probably your handle, so you've trashed her by this post.
I don't mean to flame you, but I think you are completely in the wrong here. You owe this girl an apology.
while in other businesses it is not. You bring a girl to Playboy and they use her as a Playmate, you get paid a finder's fee. It's their standard procedure, just as it is in the agency business.
An insurance agent writes a policy with an insurance carrier, he get's a finder's fee also known as commission in this case. I was not expecting anything out of the ordinary way of doing agency business.
Nor was I trying to fuck her for free. I said that after being a loyal client and seeing no one else over the course of a year and a half, it would have been nice if she had shown me some consideration for my birthday.
If you had a client who has given you all his business for the past year and a half, and you have made thousands from him, wouldn't you give him a bottle of booze at xmas? Or a bottle of champagne for his birthday? Wouldn't you show him some consideration?
And as far as having money troubles... she seems to drive an SUV import and get massages on a regular basis. Money troubles is a relative phrase.
You say the finders fee is traditional and I have no experience either way. Your being paid once doesn't make a tradition, but maybe you called around and did a survey of industry practices. It sounds bogus to me, but let's say it is a tradition. You are not in the business so you have no need to adhere to it's traditions. Again, you claim to have been doing this lady a favor. It's not like you put out a lot of effort that has to be compensated. Basically, you said "Here, call these guys".
I might give my client some gratuity, but it would never be free or discounted professional services. It blurs the line between our business and personal relationships. It's not done in my industry. In fact, we have ethical rules requiring that gratuities be of negligible value, just to ensure that no one thinks any one is being influenced by them. I know this is standard in many industries.
Finally, even if everything you say is true, real friendship is when you cut people some slack and remain their friend even when they say or do something you don't like. You value the relationship over some real or perceived slight. Friends don't keep score except in games.
strikes a bell here. You are one confused fuck if you think of yourself as honorable or a friend. You act worse than any pimp because they are at least honest about their motivations. Ya know, you'd make a good lawyer... You asked for 2cents, you got it.
you are making a fool of yourself and digging a deeper and deeper hole. If you think you are right why do you need affimation from anyone.
So you pimped her out ? did you offer her her rate for the overnight ?
When in the industry for so long.. Money rules a person.. Not everyone... It just does.. agencies.. well.. if you been around for a while.. you know how agencies work...did you really expect it ? There is one day that all you care about is money... and the people behind it dont matter... you really dont know when or how it happens, it just does.. eventually you reevaluate cause karma bites ya in the ass and one learns a lesson...
This industry is all about money and sex unfortunatly.. There are many that treat people like people... but on the other side of the spectrum... they are robotic.. money and sex..sex and money.
-- Modified on 5/4/2006 3:49:54 AM
Hi Ciara, It's been a while since we chatted. I hope you are well. It's unusual, but I disagree with you on this one.
Sex and money are the whole basis of this business we are in. We try to be cordial and even friendly. We may genuinely like each other. However, I think it crosses the line when we try to violate the basic terms of our relationship. Ladies justifiably object if a client doesn't pay or tries to talk the price down. Clients justifiably object if the meeting doesn't have a happy ending. I think it's a sign of the respect we have for each other, and of respect for the business relationship we have that we never, ever, ever ask someone to supply their half of the deal without our providing our half.
Someone once said "Never do business with friends or relatives". I think the reason is that the temptation is too great to sacrifice the business for the relationship. Of course, you can't do that all the time, so you find yourself constantly choosing to emphasize one over the other. That's when feelings get hurt.
When you go to the store, you may know the guy behind the counter, you may like him and even socialize with him. But you don't expect to get the milk for free and he doesn't expect your money for nothing. The terms of the deal have to be honored, always and everywhere.
My opinion anyway. Keep your stick on the ice!
is that your "friendship" took a backseat once the "finders fee" was introduced.
If the both of you had anything going before that...It's now been lost forever.
It's no longer natural...it's a fraud.
Your decision to require a fee was strictly business...it was going to make you "moola".
...but your desired transaction has no remote resemblance to personal friendship, just your business gain.
Soooo...once an overnight was mentioned ...YM no longer varied...
It was METERED!
Taxi!!!!!
Cheers!
because things had gotten SO BORING ! lol
If you try watching the special olympics as a sports event it's boring as hell...
If you try watching it as a family member or friend, it has an undertone of sadness...
If you PARTICIPATE in the special olympics, you are retarded!
If you WIN the special olympics, you might feel good about yourself, but the sad fact is you are STILL a redard, and you are just too retarded to realize it!
But if you sit back and watch the special olympics as a "spectacle" and aren't too up tight to laugh at the contestants, and don't become emotionally involved, it is extremely funny and will have you rolling on the floor laughing your fucking ass off,,, Just like reading this thread!
-- Modified on 5/4/2006 7:22:32 AM
Ben,
Isnt that you in the stripped top (second from the left?)
.... of your family reunion!
That's the results of YOUR broken gene code, not mine!
http://favewavs.com/wavs/misc/panhit.wav
Anyone know if they are outsourcing NYC taxi driving to India these days?
Cheers!
across is the lack of honesty. All my friend has to say was, "Hey I gotta work for them, so can we drop the fnder's fee issue. I would have said yes in a second.
Whether you belive me or not, my prinmary motivation was to help her out. For crying out loud, I go out and do things socially and off clock with her and her ten year old daughter. When I had a legitimate date, they both went with me to try to "dress me up" as they fel was appropriate. If I were in that position, I would have just been honest and up front abou it.
As far as a finder's fee. Like I said, you find a model for Playboy,, they automatically pay a finder's fee. That's the standard way of doing business. I don't know how many of you have actually worked behind the scenes at an agency,. And I don't mean providers who went out on calls; I mean office personnel. Anyone who has every worked or an agency know that a finder's fee is standard. And again, iT IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. IT IS THE FACT THAT IT WAS ALL DONE BEHIND MY BACK. If a finder's fee is so outrageous, why did the owner agre to one so readily. If she paid me a finder's fee, the agency owner would make it back in one or two bookings.
I don't think I'm' really conveying my point of view properly in this forum;
SF
It's best to move on and forget about it. It was wrong on her part but what did you expect? I'm sure she doesn't know any better. Look at how she makes a living?? I doubt she has morals. She's in it for the $ and needs to look out for herself. I have referred girl's to agencies and never expected a finders fee. Working girl's are a dime a dozen so they don't need to pay you.
If the provider in question is driving an import SUV and has the cash for weekly massages but is struggling financially, she probably needed a financial advisor more than a new job. Either way, one cannot fault her, money problems or not, for taking a position that increases her salary. Perhaps she should have called to tell you the news and thank you and she probably should have stayed out of the finder's fee situation. The bottom line is that it's not her fault the agency did not pay the fee. You have options such as legal action if you feel you have a case and want to pursue it.
Absolutely, within any profession you should appreciate your best clients by remembering birthdays and holidays, perhaps treating them to lunch, giving them a thoughtful gift or offering special privileges such as last minute appointments. But, offering reduced rates for services should never be expected. I cannot imagine a lawyer, accountant, hairdresser, doctor or any other professional offering reduced rates or free services for repeat clients.
This is not to say I think escorts offering discounted rates are wrong, it's one of many business models available.
Kate
To expect a provider to give you free time for your birthday is like expecting a lawyer to give you a free hour, or a dentist to drill a tooth for free, or a doctor to give you a free colonoscopy ( I couldn't help that one). A recognition of a client;s birthday or Xmas is usually a token, apart from the exchange of money for professional services.
I suspect that one problem in this business, reflected in the questioner's dilemma, is the peculiar nature of the profession, both because it involves such intimacy and because lines which should be clear are often blurred (e.g. time together off the clock).
And maybe there is just a hint of a feeling on the part of some that it is the kind of work that others give away for nothing and is therefore of less value. I always say that free legal advice is worth what you pay for it, but how do you translate that for this profession?
Reminds me of the time I asked a lawyer friend,
"Can I ask you 3 questions for $300?"
He replied, "Sure! What's your second question?"
Thank you. I'll be here all week. My CD is available (for sale of course) in the lobby.
JCL, LILF, esq.
Please clarify a point for me. Are you suggesting that you should have been paid a finder's fee up front before the provider ever worked for the agency?
While I agree that finder's fees are somewhat common either in cash or credit, I find it hard to believe that anyone would be dumb enough to pay a finder's fee before the provider had brought in enough revenue to at least cover the fee. That doesn't make sense. (Forgive me if I misread your initial post.)
The one possible exception to this rule is Sexy Sally but that's another story. 
thirsty
LEARN TO USE AN ALIAS!
Perhaps "scriptfucker" or something not to obvious.
cd
True that when you do a favor for a real friend, you should expect nothing in return, but the line between provider/hobbyist and friends often gets blurred and often to both parties advantage. One question, did she ask for help or did you just volunteer it? But the bottom line is that this is a business relationship and without the money you would not know each other or even met, having said that, you helped her in a purely business way, it's not like you helped her hang a picture or helped her out with a hotel reservation, you made a match that makes her money everyday and she should be thankful for that, you helped put food on her table (as it were) and if she was a smart girl, she should have compensated you in some way. My feeling is she is not as smart as all that or she just does not give a shit and expects all things should come to her without any obligation. Let her go and when she asks, "What's up", tell her. As they say in every mob movie, "it's just business."
When someone says:
This is NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!
It's only about the money.
The P.O.D.
Well Script, the way I see it is it does come down to money. Does not matter if it is you, the provider, or the agency. If I was in your position, and I have been, I would find a new provider and move on.
Take it from me, once money comes up with friends, the friendship usually gets shakey and at worst ends. So from the day you found out she was working for this agency and realized that you were the one who's trust was shafted, doesn't change a thing except for the appreciation factor that did not get equated in by the provider.
Most people beleive that when credit for a good deed is due, they should get it fair and square. Unforetunately most people don't realize that taking credit when it suits them mean that some one gets the short end.
Your beliefs are your own, and I agree that the provider should have atleast told you that your referal had helped her in the monitary sence. As for the finder's fee, if you really want it you can get it. But if I were you, I'd let the provider know that you won't be using her ever again. Let her realize that you were the one who got screwed and she should atleast have acknowledged that.
If she really cares about you, she will make it up to you in the end and won't let this disolve the friendship. As for the agency, it's business to them and unless you got in writing, you'll never see anything. Good Luch
