There are 3 things that promotes LE to go after the working girls: 1) Compliants from the neighbors and/or landlord on suspicious activity, 2) Randomly looking at the reivews on various boards on the Net and picking on the popular girls with frequent reviews, 3) streetwalkers, the easiest one and most cost effective way for them.
Remember, they don't have the resources to bust working girls daily therefore you see them going thru intervals.
Are LE really trying to bust the providers/hobbiest? I mean it would be too easy wouldn't it? All they have to due is pose as a hobbiest and lie about their identity. No screening can stop them really. So I conclude that they are deliberately not trying hard to make arrests. This industry is good for the economy. This industry is legal in nevada. There are no victims. Why would they waste time busting people who are making honest living? It's not like selling drugs or anything like that.
Uh, you were kidding, right?
a zero sum game. It is not so much that LE doesn't go after providers as prostitution is not of equal priority as murder, robbery, mayhem, terrorism, etc. So even when LE has the "leisure" hours to go after providers, it first focuses on mob influenced rings before descending down the pyramid ...
-- Modified on 5/27/2004 2:38:24 AM
Politics. Elections. Pressure from moralists.
Debunking many of your myths:
Screening does in fact work.
Prostituion is NOT legal in Nevada, only in a select few counties-definitely ILLegal in LV!
LE generally targets the ladies who bait & switch and those that are very conspicuous and the ones they get complaints about, or when their are pimpts drugs and extortion types.
There are absolutely victims in this biz, the pimped girls, those girls who extort clients for 'hush money' or rip off clients, outright stealing and theft of belongings from a client ( and the collect fee and "I left something in my car, be right back" routine) upselling, bait & switch etc. Pimps/drivers armed who show up at clients door...
Services implied yet not offered-money taken and the oh that is illegal I don't do that-I have to leave now, with his money!
On & on...
Many women do get arrested, some areas are mor active for LE than others-any Superbowl city or other major event sees a huge increase in arrests for prostitution prior to the event.
Most ladies do NOT brag about getting busted.
I think you are trying to egg LE on myself-hope it doesn't work!
You're putting us on right?! You cannot be that naive. This sort of like saying, "Why would Mao murder all the intellectuals, the very people who could improve the country?" Look to Puritans. Busybodies. Everybody minding everybody else's business. Dumbasses who've never strung two orgasms together.
There are 3 things that promotes LE to go after the working girls: 1) Compliants from the neighbors and/or landlord on suspicious activity, 2) Randomly looking at the reivews on various boards on the Net and picking on the popular girls with frequent reviews, 3) streetwalkers, the easiest one and most cost effective way for them.
Remember, they don't have the resources to bust working girls daily therefore you see them going thru intervals.
-- Modified on 5/26/2004 11:18:19 PM
The Sheriff targeted girls who advertised in the paper and basically did little or no screening--all contact was done by phone without screening or references.
When the lady was arrested, female officers took over her phone and then made "appointments" for the unlucky guys who called that day.
Over 50 arrests were made (men and women), and the Sheriff got a lot of publicity (his major goal--he's quite the a media ham).
However, all the charges were dropped at the end and have not been reinstated.
Another case of "sound and fury, signifying nothing." (Macbeth)
-- Modified on 5/27/2004 8:16:10 AM
Reading some of the responses on the discussion boards never ceases to amaze me. I have been in this hobby for several years, and have met countless numbers of providers and hobbyists. To date, I have never met a real criminal in this pastime even though prostitution is a violation of the law. So many of the posters really think LE is actively pursuing them. They also think they are somehow out smarting LE. As many posters have mentioned before, LE only gets involved in prostitution enforcement if it is either conspicuous or complained of. If LE receives information about criminal activity, they are required by law to investigate. If a neighbor notifies LE that her new neighbor has men coming and going all day long, then LE is going to check it out. I often wonder how many disgruntled hobbyists and vindictive providers have “snitched” on their contemporaries.
About a year and a half ago there was a trio of armed young Black men robbing providers at their in-call locations. Unfortunately, the girls were reluctant to report the robberies to LE for fear of getting arrested themselves. Instead, they posted warnings on the LA Discussion board. LE used that information and was able to easily identify several in-call locations in the Valley. They placed surveillance on the selected in-calls and watched clients come and go all day.
After about a week, they observed the trio approach an in-call in Studio City. They detained the suspects before they entered the apartment, so the girls would not be placed in a dangerous situation. After the trio was arrested and booked, the detectives attempted to interview the victims who had identified themselves on the discussion board. They were able to get enough victims willing to testify to file armed robbery charges. The trio was subsequently convicted and sent to prison. The operation was conducted by robbery detectives, not vice officers.
Since LE was aware of illegal activity regarding the in-calls, they were required by law to take action. To comply with the law, vice officers went to all the known in-call locations and rounded up the girls. They were taken to the police station and issued citations for escorting without a license. The lieutenant who was in charge of the vice squad lectured the girls on the dangers of prostitution. He said they were required by law to issue them citations in order to take them into custody and transport them to the police station. The citations were only issued as a legal requirement and would be cancelled by the City Attorney. The girls were neither booked nor fingerprinted.
Since vice is considered a very sensitive area, a complete report of the operation was prepared and forwarded to the civilian police commission. All the names in the report were redacted except for the robbers and the police. No information was retained on the clients who were seen patronizing the in-call locations.
The full report is public record and can be obtained by submitting a request to the police commission. I hate to burst the bubbles of all you want-to-be criminals, but we are considered more of a nuisance than outlaws by LE.
-- Modified on 5/27/2004 10:43:21 AM
There you go. Nice thorough explanation. Proves that LE's are not after the working girls. Exactly as I stated.
First, let's suppose the story is exactly, word for word true. What it actually proves is that LE is not after providers EVERY SINGLE TIME. That's a very different thing from what you and Dr.Quack are saying, which is that LE is NEVER, EVER, after 'the working girls'.
That statement is so obviously contradicted by fact that it's not worth saying anything more about it.
Ladies and gents, I don't post these Logic 101 messages to show off. I do it because the ability to distinguish between a rational argument (even if wrong) and plain BS is a valuable life skill.
It is amazing that you think that they do not go after working girls and an insult to those who have been arrested, etc. That explanation does not prove that they don't go after them, mabey in that case, they didn't, but not always. And it's also not true that they just go after agencies either. Some people really have no clue and should not assume they know everything just from reading a story.
Sara
deleted post
-- Modified on 6/1/2004 6:18:45 AM
I posted the details of my case a few years ago, and don't wish to repeat them again, but let me summarize: You don't know what you're talking about.
Maybe you and your cop friends were able to bring the aforementioned bad guys to justice, but it rarely works that way.
In Orange County, CA, the cops routinely set up stings to trap hobbyists (I narrowly escaped one), bust girls without complaints from neighbors or anybody else (three of my favorite FS girls, and one FBSM girl got arrested in a two year period), and aggressively pursue anybody involved with any aspect of the hobby.
Anybody, that is, except Orange County's infamous ripoff agency that is allowed to prey upon any resident or traveler unfortunate enough to call them. The scum owner goes to great expense to maintain his connections with the cops in order that he has the necessary air cover to routinely rob his victims and abuse his girls. He gives the cops drugs and girls at his rave parties, and occasionally throws them the name of a hobbyist just to keep them happy. In return, this agency has been allowed to operate with impunity for years. While it's difficult to calculate any exact figures, he's easily robbed people of many millions of dollars- all sanctioned by the cops.
I had to hire a priviate investigator to find all this out as part of my legal defense, so this isn't just me bitching, this is evidence that was used in court. My PI confirmed this criminal agency owner had someone on the inside of at least three OC police departments (he probably had more, but those were the ones he was able to uncover).
And then there's that fine waste of skin named Tom Giffin of the Oragne County Sheriff's Department Task Force. He busts the girls, lectures them on the dangers of what they're doing (he, of course, plays the good cop), then the next day, this married piece of shit asks the girls that he just busted out for dates. I hope you boys at the OCSD read this.
Yeah, Oficer Obgyn, you're living in a fucking dream world-- that imaginary place where the cops are the good guys keeping us all safe. Best pull your head out of the orifice it's currently in and look around. Maybe you'll have the experience of looking up and seeing nine cops with guns pointed at your head, just like I did after the agency ROB and her ex-con driver tried to execute a cash and dash, but when that failed, filed a false police report implicating me to cover their actions
Can't happen, you say? Well it happened, and guess what? They never even had to show up in court. They failed to appear on 6 different court dates, and when the judge asked if she should issue a bench warrant, the Asst. Distirct Attorney said "I don't think that will be necessary." What the fuck does that tell you about justice in Orange County and about whose connected and who isn't. I was put through the legal meat grinder and the those who tried to rob me not only were never charged, they never even had to appear.
Dream on you people... dream on.
-- Modified on 5/27/2004 4:32:51 PM
I am referring to a specific situation that actually occurred and is documented in public record. The chain of events took place in the San Fernando Valley which is within the City of Los Angeles. I was told the same story by several girls at different times who were involved. Not all of the girls knew each other, so it is highly unlikely they were fabricating some bizarre tale. I am not familiar with the law enforcement policies in Orange County so I am not qualified to render an opinion on their system. Your response was nothing more than a rant and outrageous general statements that cannot be verified. I was simply relating an incident that is contained in public record that is available to anyone who requests a copy. By the way, I am neither a cop, nor do I have friends who are cops.
And he seemed to have been speaking from his own real life experience.
By the way, you may not be LE or have LE friends, but you seemed to have had a very good grasp of intimate details of the story that you related, must have been an incredible statistical abnormality that you would meet enough providers who were involved in the situation to rather clearly relate detailed information that almost surely would not have been in a public record document.
...the first rule of a physician is "to do no harm".
Taking your advice could indeed lead to serious harm. The stories of LE targeting providers and hobbyists in San Diego are well documented.
Actually, I've applied for sanctuary on the new political board, although it does seem to include a number of "unsavory" characters otherwise known as Republicans (lol).
You're wrong. They try to get girls even without a complaint from neighbors, whatever (I dont do incalls at an apartment) so I have no neighbors complaining about me, but "they" still try to set up dates with me I am positive.
Just by advertising, they find you. There are so many things that happen. You really have no idea. Ever heard of OFC?
I cannot believe some people still have this attitude that nothing ever happens to working girls. In fact, in my area, a couple girls have had trouble this week and I hear that it will only get worse with the upcoming election.
And alot of the robbers, murderers, etc do get away with it. I know this all to well.
That is very frustrating!
Sara
I know many ladies that have been arrested on prostitution charges. Even if the charges are dropped, they still have an arrest record that stays with them for life! Take it from someone who knows and has a record to prove it!
-- Modified on 5/27/2004 4:57:02 PM
For the answer to your last question first, there are several reasons for LE to bust providers. None of them are very rational, but they are all motivating.
First and foremost is religious, and don't underestimate this. The religious scriptures of the major religions in this country rail on prostitutes for pages on end. It has a big influence in this society. LE and prosecutors offices tend to be populated by the moralistic and the authoritarian anyway, and the ones who gravitate toward vice work tend to be the worst of this lot, and if they're not, they tend to be on the take.
The second is politics. Monogamous housewives and providers tend to have opposite social/political interests. They are objective political enemies. Since marriage is lauded as sacred, more so now that gay marriage has challenged it, and prostitution is illegal, the housewives have the upper hand. Even if their husbands see providers, the husbands aren't going to endanger their marriage or face social embarassment in favor of providers, so they come down on the side of their wives. This means that prostitution laws are popular, and so the public never complains if there is too much money being used to fight prostitution, in fact, it's rather popular.
The third is something that you mentioned: it's easy to go after providers. It's also low-risk and low cost. Police will always find it far easier and less risky than going after drugs, gangs, thieves, or murderers. If the town is being eaten up with crime, arresting providers is an easy way for the police to show the public they are doing their job. The public falls for it every time. Providers are an even easier target because usually nobody will lift a finger to help a provider taken down. Because of religious influence, they are at the bottom of the social rung.
And the law overwhelming hits providers and SW, never hobbyists or johns, who may be harder targets.
It may be true that LE is not trying too hard to make arrests in most places right now. That does depend on the locale. Providers in San Diego are known to really suffer from it. The federal government made some big raids, on Canal Street and on Big Doggie, shortly after 9/11, BTW. The environment could always change for the worst.
Yes, providership is legal in *some* counties in Nevada. Don't take that as a bellwether, though. Remember that by 1979, marijuana was decriminalized in 11 states, and look at what happened to its legalization campaign since then. No state has been reconsidering its prostitution laws. Unless there is a social change, none will do so.
/Zin
I merely reiterated a story that was on the local evening news about the arrest of the armed robbers, and a detailed account of what had occurred in the Sunday edition of the LA Times. I was careful not to editorialize or include my personal opinion. The in-call robberies were a hot topic on the LA Discussion board, and the round up of the valley
in-call girls was also discussed extensively.
The responses to my post were all over the map, and were at best remotely related to what I had said. One response accused me of being some sort of LE and living in a dream world. Another reply lectured me on the Hippocratic Oath as though I was a physician giving bad advice to my patients. Has he ever heard of a TER handle? Most referred to the theory that LE never arrests prostitutes, and somehow I am suggesting people not use reasonable caution when engaging in the hobby. That premise was neither in the news, nor in my post. Do these people actually read what is written? Perhaps the most bizarre of all was the one who stated he believed Counterpoint’s statement because it was based on real life experience. A wild outlandish, disjointed story authored by someone with marginal writing skills over an article published in the LA Times. He also questioned the detail in which a public report is written. Has he ever read such a report? Again, I place more credibility with the writer at the LA Times than the responder.
In regards to Counterpoint’s statement: If all the criminal acts he is alleging against LE are really true, why has a civil law suit, or criminal charges not been filed against Orange County? Why would anyone in their right mind hobby in such a place? I admit I have no first hand knowledge of what goes on in Orange County, but do you really think LE could get away with that type of lawlessness with all the attorneys practicing in California. The attorney’s fees are paid by the defendant in a civil rights law suit filed against any governmental agency. That means the attorney gets paid regardless of the amount of the settlement. Most attorneys would jump at the chance to handle a civil rights law suit against the government at any level. Why hasn’t his attorney filed such a law suit, or at least advised him of his right to do so?
Although the responses did not actually address what I had written, I did notice a definite pattern: No one likes to read anything contrary to their opinion whether the information is accurate or not. It’s called the ostrich with his head in the sand syndrome, or Shoot the Messenger axiom. And of course there are those who always have something to say regardless of the subject. Their names pop up on the boards on an almost daily basis. They usually wait to see which way the crowd is going, so they won’t be of the minority opinion, and of course their responses are at best trite.
They say ignorance is bliss: I say ignorance is dangerous.
The magnitude of your naivete as relates to the judicial system in Orange County is obviously beyond my ability to bridge.
You ask "Why would anybody in their right mind hobby in such a place?" Well, perhaps you're new around here, but most people in OC have become freeway hobbyists precisely for that reason. That, by the way, is exactly what LE hoped to accomplish. Make people have to go someplace else if they want to see a provider. Duh.
And as for civil suits, let me explain a few things. There's a big difference between how things are supposed to work and how things do work in the courts. If you've never had the pleasure, you wouldn't know this. I actually believed I had certain rights and protections. Then I saw how things really worked and couldn't even believe I was in America.
Most of the things that happened to me shouldn't have happened, yet they did. I fought this bogus charge for almost a year and paid an extremely high emotional price as well as a financial one. You have no idea how devastating just being accused of something like this can be to a professional type person.
Plus, after I'd been spit out by the legal system and saw first hand what a fixed game it was, the last thing I was going to do was waste another year of my life and what was left of my money fighting "city hall." Sure, I asked my lawyer about the possibility, and if you think I'm still filled with rage now, imagine what I felt like in 1997 when this occurred. But she explained to me the futility and impossibility of tyring to sue multiple police agencies.
And lest you think I was getting bad advice, this attorney is one of the best in the LA area and was one of Robert Blake's early defense attorneys. Yes, the situation was that serious. Because you see, when people can file false charges and not be made to appear or even give a valid address, and when cops lie on police reports, you can do a lot of things that aren't taught in your high school Civics class.
I suggest that unless you have first hand experience with this subject, you save your further indignation about the reponses you got, as well as keep your judgement of what I lived through to yourself. You continue to have no idea how the real world works.
Oh, and BTW, it's easy to find the girls who have been threatened with death, stalked, or coerced to have sex with the cops. It's a little more difficutt to get any of them to testify in court when they fear for their life. Oh, sorry, I forgot, on TV they HAVE to testify.
Here's another newsflash. I now realize what minorities have been complaining about for decades. I witnessed things after being arrested that made my stomach turn. I couldn't believe the abuses I saw in just 36 hours of being in the OC jail. It changed my life and it would change yours. It was sickenning, just sickening.
I'm a white male in my 50's. Blue eyes, and a Masters degree. My affluence, race and education shielded me from the life of a minority in this country. Especially one that has the misfortune of being tossed into the "system." If you saw it first hand, you'd do what I did when I got out. I sent a check to the ACLU, and trust me, I'm not usually a big fanof theirs. But while I relized some of what the ACLU does is absurd, the greater risk is letting LE and the judicial system continue to operate in this manner.
Sorry if the real world isn't quite the place you believe it to be, but I can assure you, my core beliefs were shaken too, and I haven't been the same person since.
-- Modified on 5/28/2004 4:02:27 PM
Please PM me.
It may be an experience I'll have have to face someday.
I do have questions.
"Do these people actually read what is written? Perhaps the most bizarre of all was the one who stated he believed Counterpoint’s statement because it was based on real life experience. A wild outlandish, disjointed story authored by someone with marginal writing skills over an article published in the LA Times. He also questioned the detail in which a public report is written. Has he ever read such a report? Again, I place more credibility with the writer at the LA Times than the responder."
So twisted that it barely deserves a reply, but since I cannot let such garbage go unchallenged, I will try to enlarge your rather small world. I have seen police reports and they did not come close to having the detail that you had in your original post.
This board is a public discussion board, there are many people who post here regularly and many who choose not to post at all. The reasons why people post or choose not to post are varied. Sorry if people posting here often is distasteful to you, but that is real life, get over it.
-- Modified on 5/28/2004 4:24:10 PM
in Vegas. They target : Street,Casino,Agency and Indies they find on Eros and review boards such as this one. LV has the money and the manpower to go after ladies EVERY month. Many Counties in FL,NC and Chicago target us EVERY month not just during some special Election time. Screening can stop some of them.That is why you see so many of the highest rated ladies having heavy screening or asking for a ref from other fine ladies. You see ladies that don't screen,they may have been arrested so many times they 1:don't care. 2:have a pimp (pressure to make as much as they can,risking their own safety) 3: L.E posing as a Provider 4: They may be ROB or just plan on stealing your stuff 5: They are just plain stupid. We all have (I hope the ladies here do)our OWN way of how we decide to meet a new friend. Safety is for both,but my butt does't want to end up in the hog pen and I don't want hobbists to either. So EVERYONE do your homework and maybe we can keep each other safe. No matter what,LE is part of the game for all of us.
the LE are after providers but many of them are so discreet that they are hard to bust.
you have to prove that money was taken for sex only in the escort business.
in the other businesses in SC, you can be busted for prostitution for stripping too close and letting the guy touch you (sc has the 5ft rule) men can't touch the strippers
in the massage parlors, if they do a raid and your clothes are off or you take money from LE and you don't have a liscense, you can be charged --
I had a cop write me an email after my arrest to a yahoo personal ad I had that didn't mention anything but to meet new people and he was the one to offer me money via email but I told him to give me part of the money today and tommorrow we could go out again and it would be our second date and we could have a little fun.
He kept using the words sex for money and kept reassuring me that he had used escorts before and that he used to be a client where I massaged and that is how he recognized my photo. No escort client has the indecency to use the words sex for money b/c agencies would require the girls to leave immediately.
He wrote me for two weeks. I think he was LE, I want all of you to keep this in mind b/c LE can enforce any law that exists from speeding to murder and entrapment laws are no longer in use.