Politics and Religion

A post with footnotes. It was a fascinating read.
charlie445 3 Reviews 3037 reads
posted

The numbers look kinda funny though. But if the point is that women are in charge, I agree. I would venture to say that if men were dominant humans would be extinct by now.

and what's the latest or whatever.
But what is kind of bothering me is the few people around me saying how disgusting it is for gays to marry and stuff.

I really don't care. But if they do what they want to do?  They should have already won.

But funny how the people I meet say bad things. Maybe they do represent the most and they do believe in god.

I don't care what happens but I see what I see.

I think everyone who knows me, knows by now that I am a very vocal supporter of same sex marriage rights. My view is that objecting to equal rights for gays is the last great form of socially acceptable bigotry.

However, I have to say that California's Supreme Court made the right ruling. When it comes to matters of law, there is simply no room for personal opinion or emotion. There is only the law, and what is right. When California first passed a law that banned same sex marriage, the State Supreme Court was correct in reviewing the law and striking it down because it violated the state's constitution. Proposition 8 however, was an amendment TO the state's constitution, and whether I like it or not, 52% of the voters in California voted yes to amend the state constituion itself. The State supreme court has absolutely no power to change the state constitution, or to strike any portion of it.

That does not mean that gay marriage supporters are not without remedy. State supreme courts have no authority to alter state constitutions, but the USSC certainly does if they determine that an amendment to a state constitution is unconstitutional. I do believe there will eventually come a day when a case comes before the Supreme Court, and same sex marriage is finally awarded the protection it deserves. The precedent is already set. In Loving v. Virginia, the court wrote that marriage is a fundamental right, and as such is protected by the 14th Amendment. All that needs to happen now is for that fundamental right to be extended to same sex couples in the same way it was extended to interracial couples. I suspect though, that that day may be many years in coming though.

GaGambler1403 reads

IMO Marriage is a legal contract entered into by two people of majority age. Sex, race, etc have no bearing IMO. It is a legal contract, pure and simple.

We do disagree on the subject of equal rights for gays. With the exception of gay marriage, gays already have "equal" rights, they don't need special rights. We don't need special laws for different classes of citizens whether that be gays, Jews, blacks, asians etc.

2hard2resist1387 reads

Under California's domestic-partner law and anti-discrimination statutes, same-sex couples continue to enjoy the same substantive core benefits ... as those enjoyed by opposite-sex couples, including the constitutional right to enter into an officially recognized and protected family relationship with the person of one's choice and to raise children. So equality is already there.

People in California would like to define marriage as union between a man and a woman. IMO, the only way around prop 8 is for people to call it as something else. We need to find a middle ground as this argument will never end if we don't find a middle ground. Call traditional marriage as "marriage", and perhaps gay unions as "????". (any suggestions on the name?)

The problem here stems from the state having the power and authority to grant or withhold licenses to marry. Once this function is held by the state, then it becomes subject to a variety of requirements as imposed by the state in response to various forms of lobbying, pressure groups, etc. In this sense, marriage as specified by the state becomes a legal entity similar to a corporation; and subject to rules and conditions pertaining to its institution and dissolution  from which an individual, sans application to the state, would be immune.

Many people have a religious (church) view of marriage rather than a legalistic (state/civil) view of marriage. Most interpretations of scripture yield the result that homosexual marriage ought not be permitted. People who subscribe to such scriptural interpretations therefore lobby to have state power used to match their view of marriage.

There are also various interest groups. Feminists successfully pushed for no-fault divorce; women's and men's rights advocates push for various changes; and folks with homosexual orientations have pushed to secure marriage as a right.

In all cases, because the state holds the power to grant or deny a marriage license under whatever terms (and to grant divorce under whatever terms), there is considerable pressure brought to bear by interested parties on all sides of issues pertaining to what has, up until recently, been a bedrock of Western social systems. Naturally, as many views are diametrically opposed, legislation must necessarily offend one group or another.

The core problem, here, is NOT whether or not homosexuals should be able to marry each other. The REAL problem is the fact that one must go to the state, hat in hand, pay a fee and beg permission *at all*.

Why do we accept the notion that the government has the right to tell us who we can marry, how that marriage will be conducted and the terms of its dissolution?

Not too long ago, across the Western World, marriage was the primary province of churches and religious institutions. Marriages were granted by churches and the conduct of the marriage was governed by that church's moral principles. Dissolution was likewise governed by the church's principles.

There are now churches in this country that will conduct marriages under various terms. Does a guy want to marry another guy? The Unitarian Universalists will do it. Does a couple want true "until death do us part" marriage with no divorce permitted? Then go to the Catholic Church. Do three girls and one guy all want to get married? Then go to the LDS church. Do three guys and one girl want to get married? Go to a Dianic Feminist Wiccan priestess. In all cases, let the form of the marriage, its conduct, and dissolution be governed by terms agreed to by the participants with no state involvement under the rules of their church.

And for atheists?

Well, I'm sure a solution can be found. They can create "The first church of Atheism" and get married there.

This is a very diverse country with very diverse views and traditions. Soon, it will be majority non-European and will need to adopt many non-European cultural norms. (Sorry, actions have consequences.) In England, already, marriage of Muslims is allowed to be dealt with under Sharia law; in the interests of cultural sensitivity and the value of diversity, of course.

The idea that an institution as central to people as marriage ought to be regulated in "one size fits all" fashion by the state is ridiculous.

The real problem is that the government has the right to permit or deny a marriage at all. The real solution is to take that right away from them.

Timbow1294 reads

Marriage should only be between a man and a woman  ,gays can get rights thru power of attorney or in the future civil unions.

As has been said many times now, power of attorney doesn't even come close to mirroring the rights and protections that accompany a legally recognized marriage.

Civil unions come close, but still fall far short of the mark as well. A civil union recognized in one state will not necessarily be recognized in any state, as marriage is. Furthermore, no civil union is recognized at the Federal level, as legal marriage is. The two are not even close to the same.

There are alot of things in this world that I think shouldn't happen. I think there shouldn't be instant re-play in football. However, there is no room in the law for what should be or what shouldn't be. There is only what is right and what is wrong, what is equal and what is unequal. Civil unions and other legal remedies simply are not equal. The Constitution is very clear on the matter of equal protection, and its not up for interpretation.

GaGambler1688 reads

but in trying to make your point you make several errors. The Constitution is not clear at all on the matter of equal protection, and everything is up for interpretation.

When the Constitution was first drafted it only applied to white, male landowners. It certainly did not intend to emcompass "homosexual". Native Americans, women, blacks, asians, the list goes on and on were intentionally excluded.

Even though I agree that gays should be afforded the same right, your argument regarding the law in general and the Constitution in specific is specious. Just saying something is so doesn't make it so.

Where, in Article I Section 8, does Congress get the power to make any laws regarding marriage? Answer: Nowhere. Any laws made regarding marriage at the federal level are extra-constitutional.

Of course, the Bill of Rights therefore leaves those powers not given the feds to the states or to the people.

I spot-checked the New Hampshire and Virginia Constitutions, and neither mentions either marriage or matrimony.

Thus, the right of marriage is that of individuals, just like free speech, right to self defense, etc.

When the state presumes to regulate marriage at all, it takes upon itself extra-constitutional powers.

If people want their government to regulate marriage, perhaps we should draft a Constitutional Amendment stating that we the people don't feel we can be trusted to make our own decisions and need big daddy government making them for us.

This is the true danger behind gay marriage as a movement. I couldn't care less if gay folks get married. But I DO care that such matters re-affirm the power of the state in an arena where it has no business to start with.

The income tax was supposed to be small and temporary. Now it is a monstrosity that gobbles 40% of my hard work. The only thing government is really good at is prosecuting wars. Pretty much everything else, they screw up.

Today, they specify, in generalized group terms who can or can't get married. Tomorrow it will be gay marriage. The day after that? There will be a lottery forcing unemployable men and ugly women to marry or something equally ridiculous.

I say "no" to government endorsed marriage, period -- gay or otherwise. Allow each of us to marry in our own way, and don't allow government to define what it means *at all*.

GaGambler2305 reads

and as such is subject to the underlying laws of both the State and Federal Governments as does any other legal agreement regarding property etc.

I also agree that once you give the government an inch they take a mile, but the ship has already sailed on this one. There is no reversing it. I personally believe that since marriage is a contract between two adults, it should be between "any two consenting adults" regardless of race, sex, or fucking shoe size for that matter. Aside from that I don't really give a rat's ass if gays get married. I doubt you do either. Except for the larger issues, who except for gay people themselves really should give a fuck?

Very true about the forefathers but the equal protection clause come from 14th Amendement or the Civil War amendments ratified in 1868, years after our forefathers.  The Court over the years have applied equal protection with exception of Plessy (1896) and more recently racially protected legislative districts ( in which I agree with).  

For years, I supported "Don't ask don't tell" and Civil Unions but after attending my Frat brothers Cali wedding, I realize that its about two people declaring their love not a legal definition that civil unions encompasses.  It took a lot for me to accept my Frat brothers coming out of the closet but I do not get to the Left coast much and I had my eye on some providers, that do not visit DC.  Its all about the hobby, of course  LOL

-- Modified on 5/27/2009 4:40:32 PM

GaGambler1861 reads

but I do care about property rights, health insurance, right to determine medical treatment and all the other rights conveyed by marriage. IMO a gay couple should have all the legal rights to marry their interests, both personal and financial that the rest of us do.

The cocksuckers should also have to deal with divorce just like the rest of us too. lol


-- Modified on 5/27/2009 4:49:02 PM

don't leave out the carpet munchers.

Every guy knows how badly courts treat guys in divorce, and how biased they are. It's so bad that now 22% of single men between 24 and 35 are committed to never marry and 53% have no intention of doing so. (These are disproportionately the brighter and higher-earning males that many women can't find or can't get to commit.) It's called "The Marriage Strike."

In Germany, it is being called "the Reproductive Strike" because guys are just getting vasectomies at age 21 and then sticking out their tongues at the women and basically saying "nanny nanny boo boo you can't get me."

I don't want to debate that particular issue at the moment; but I can see where homosexual marriage could give courts a real problem. Usually it's really easy: screw the guy. When it's two guys -- who do you screw? Do you try to figure out who is the top and who is the bottom and screw the top? How about when it is two women? Do you just screw whichever one looks more butch? What if you can't tell?

I suggest that in same-sex marriages, one must assume the role of "designated male" so that s/he knows up front that s/he is the designated "fall guy."

In this fashion, the normal running of our courts won't be disrupted or confused.

:-)

Timbow1178 reads

Yea probably with Soto you are right :)

2hard2resist1422 reads

...then how come women are not allowed to be Navy seals? no one is complaining about that. have you seen female rugby players? no. are there any female players in the NFL? no.

so clearly there are some things that are meant only for one thing, and other things that are meant for other stuffs. imo, traditional marriage should be for men and women, and some sort of union (of course, with all the benefits of marriage) should be for gays.

As far as football, nothing is stopping a female from playing.  The question are if they good enough.  If you had a 175 Lbs woman, with 4.3 speed and good hands, the Lions will draft her.

Now the miltary discriminate in the law.  What job in the civilian world can fire you for being gay.  The military can....right or wrong.

As a former commander and a initial supporter of Don't ask Don't tell, I rather have a unit full of gay men, not faggots but men who happen to be gay anytime before a woman.  When I was a commander in the Gulf, my unit loss 14 females through pregancies (many so they would not deploy in the first place) and assorted female issues.  

GaGambler1576 reads

I really do mean that as a compliment. I was born and raised in the SF Bay area. My peers were only slightly right of Castro, but as I matured I started developing my own opinions, most of which were not in line with my left wing upbringing.

I only partly agree with your analogy about the 175lb woman with 4.3 speed. Yes the Lions would draft her, but any team that actually won a game last year would not. Maybe if a woman was 190 lbs and had 4.1 speed she could play in the NFL, but only the hapless Lions would consider someone like a 175 woman good enough to play for them. lol

RightwingUnderground3092 reads

That issue is the rearing of children. Children are best raised by a man and a woman. Men and women are different (big news right). It was interesting some 10 or 15 years ago, a cover of TIME magazine actually highlighted an article with the title “Men and Women Are Different”, LOL.

Part of a counter argument to my concerns becomes similar to those arguments as to why should people care about marriage anymore when 50% end in divorce anyway. Well, I think the 50% who are a success still are justified to care. So the percentage of families that are still a man and a woman with healthy happy children still are in a majority. Given this, there’s legitimacy for people that consider themselves advocates for children to have a valid voice advocating for traditional family rearing of children.

And yes I realize that there are all sorts of data and things happening today indicating that two men or two women have successfully raised children. Maybe there are even studies that go beyond anecdotal information. Even so, I’d have to examine the methodology as I trust my instincts and I think there are plenty of people that would publish prejudiced results.

There are plenty of examples that contraindicate my premise. Being raised by two men or two women most certainly beats being raised in multiple foster families or an orphanage. And that there are many many children being raised in single family homes without government intervention or regulation or control. Some of these are successful, but many are less than the best situation. Quite possibly a gay child (how would one know?) would be better raised by gay parents although that reasoning is kind of “out there on a ledge”.

Between 1) “no fault” divorce when divorce rates started to skyrocket and 2) when “The Great Society” and the “War on Poverty” began to tear apart poor families, society began to condone single parent families. Just because they exist, it is no excuse to further put children at risk by condoning the rearing of children by same sex parents. Of course whether it’s condoned or not it’s already happening so in many regards that ship has sailed. Still I have a very difficult time putting my stamp of approval on it.

In almost every regard, I couldn’t care less about two people, gay or straight, joining together in commitment to one another. I’d like to accomplish a system that provided for every “joined” couple to have every legal right that married couples presently enjoy, EXCEPT FOR CHILD REARING.

RightWing, you are 100% correct.

It's a cold hard fact that the best way to raise a child is with a female mother and a male father. Removing the biological father from the home even causes female children to menstruate earlier. It causes enormous damage to children psychologically and intellectually. Even among European-Americans, fully 1/3rd of children are born without a biological father in the home; and of the remaining two thirds, half of those end up that way. It's a monumental disaster.

However, you must understand that the Marxist agenda of of the medium-tan United Nations person of indeterminate sex would be derailed by your concerns. Everybody knows that the traditional family stands as a bulwark against tyranny; which is why one of the first laws passed in the USSR was no-fault divorce; and why the traditional family has been a constant target of the Frankfurt School Marxists and the Culture of Critique.

We can't allow your concerns about children stand in the way of progress because the collective is all and the individual is nothing! It must be true, because I learned it in Cambridge.

:-)



Yes, I agree, the best case is a child having loving parents, who are narried raising a child.  However, after a generation of the welfare state that diminished the role of fathers, that ship has sailed as you indicated.  Evidence?  Anytime, the leader of the social conservatives daughter have a baby and have no backlash from the social right, case closed.

Now, being a divorced dad of a child that by any measure is well balanced going to a near Ivy college, its case by case.  Even in my family, my brother who been married for 24 years, kids are college dropouts and my niece struggle in relationships.  

So with the "happy family" theory at least damanged, lets look at families of gay couples.  Based on your world of pro-life, if Roe is ever struck down, we will have more unwanted children than we have now. So in cases of adoption of orphans or unwanted children, why not?  I am sure a family gay or straight is better than a group home or foster home where parents are just collecting a state check.  

Now, where I get leary is when gay couples plan to have a child through fertilization.  I am not there yet but like single motherhood, that ship as sailed in the social conservative circles.  Ask Dick Cheney about his grandaughter, his daughter's partner child.  


RightwingUnderground2769 reads

Just because ships have sailed doesn't everyone should jump in and start swimming after the boat.

Also, if there ever is prenatal genetic test available for gayness, we will see the liberal gay community shift to pro-life overnight.

I will go of the record that there are two types of gays, Faggots and gay men.  Like I posted earlier, my Frat brother is gay and married.  I could hang out with both of them and will not reel odd, because they act like men, except gawking at women.  They are not the sterotype "Boy George"

Actually, if Roe is ever struck down, that will simply give the states jurisdiction over abortion and the overwhelming preponderance of states will probably make it taxpayer subsidized, as it is now. So Roe is a non-issue; especially given that in the next 20 years we are likely to start seeing states leave the union in response to resource scarcity brought about by the end of cheap oil. (The GAO says Peak Oil is real.)

If you were to discount illegal immigrants and the children of illegal immigrants; due to the marriage and reproductive strike by males and the hypergamous tendencies of females -- we are actually at negative population growth already. We have been for 20 years.

So I simply don't foresee a huge spike in unwanted children. We are marriage-striking and birth-controlling ourselves out of existence.

If anything, we are tending greatly away from monogamy toward polygynous polygamy. As GB Shaw noted, women would rather have 10% of a rich man than 100% of a poor man. Given this, and the existence of unilateral no-fault divorce; we have a phenomenon where lots and lots of pretty women keep themselves pretty much man-free and child-free through their best reproductive years waiting for a man who never comes or else become mistresses of some sort to that handful of men who can afford to support them. (Either individually or in aggregate.)

Just look at all the web sites dedicated to helping women find sugar daddies or that restrict male membership to those making over a certain (verified) dollar amount. This polygyny tends, also, to lower per-woman birth rates.

However, I strongly suggest that we re-consider the creation of orphanages. We're going to be seeing a lot of orphans in the future.

Overall, I don't see the gay issue as macroscopically relevant. Probably 2% of men are truly gay. Of those, a tiny proportion actually marry.

That handful of married gay folks won't even make a dent in the adoption/orphan problem we have currently, much less the one we're going to see.

When looking at social issues, you can't look at the exceptions -- you have to look at what is likely in large enough numbers to have an impact.

The whole gay marriage issue is symbolic because its real impact is minimal as most gays with access to marriage don't avail themselves of it. It is pushed from various directions for various reasons. For some people, it truly IS all about equality and justice. For others, it is an attempt to drive the final nail in the coffin of marriage. Personally, I see it as a prelude to legalized polygamy.

And any man who thinks polygamy is a good thing is either Bill Gates or very bad at math. Don't get me wrong -- it would be great for most women; but really horrendous for most men.

and gold diggers do not fit that requirement.

I see your point about if abortion was illegal.  For all intent purposes, its a white middle class issue and a dad will take their daughter and Norplant her ass before the Levi Johnston's of the world get to her.  I would.  



tjrevisted2015 reads

IM NOT A CANDIDATE!!!!

I'D FUCK THE SHIT OUTTA MY MAN..He wouldnt have the energy OR THE TIME

Keep in mind that, as a whole, polygamy is good for women, but bad for men -- that's why we have monogamy.

Consider female hypergamy(1)(2)(3)(4). I've noted some sources (below) for folks who are interested. Hypergamy refers to the natural female tendency to prefer men of high social status, dominant male traits and controlling as many resources as possible. While not ALL females exhibit this trait, it is sufficiently widespread that it is a socially significant phenomenon.

Further evidence of female hypergamy is manifested in rates of nonpaternity; that is, the rate at which husbands wind up devoting resources to raise children who are not their own without their knowledge. (i.e. raising the children of the wife's infidelity.) This is about 10%. In the overwhelming preponderance of cases, wives cheat with men who they perceive to be of higher social status than their husbands.

This phenomenon has been socially significant enough throughout history that men have developed two concurrent strategies to keep it in check: guarding behavior and high rates of In-Pair-Coupling. How often have you ever heard of a woman complaining that a man is "controlling?" This is male mate guarding behavior intended to stave off cuckoldry. High rates of in-pair coupling, particularly near the woman's peak of fertility, are intended to allow the husband's sperm to saturate the woman's reproductive tract to enable competition with the sperm of other males. (There are lots of studies on this kind of stuff.) A man's behavior in this regard is determined by how desirable he believes his mate is to other males, how receptive he believes her to be to the overtures of other males, etc.

(While, within a monogamous setting, male perception of the attractiveness of the female declines, his activity in terms of initiating sex remains high -- even 3-4 times weekly after 20 years. On the other hand, female initiation of sex declines to near zero within five years and receptiveness to male advances declines as well. While there are exceptions this is the general rule.)

Now -- here's the kicker that throws off all the male daydreams of polygamy.

What does hypergamy predict women want? They want the male who controls the most resources. Ideally, they want absolute 1 on 1 commitment from the most physically attractive, dominant and wealthy man in existence. However, if they cannot get 1 on 1 commitment; they would rather be one of many women being serviced by this man than the only woman served by a man they find undesirable. This is why you find both sugar babies and escorts in existence. Such women will not settle for what they consider a "lesser" man; and would be happier to share a "greater" man's (or group of men's) resources.

Now, think about this. WHO controls the relationship between client and provider? The provider. Why? In simple terms, because demand for providers exceeds supply. Even in an essentially polygamous situation, women are in charge. So don't even imagine that under overt polygamy women would be any less in charge.

In fact, the more legal power women have, the more polygamous our society becomes; because polygamy favors women. (Examine, for example, the economics of no-fault divorce. 70% of such divorces are initiated by women and another 20% are instigated by them. The women want divorces, the men don't. Now, imagine a divorced man remarries another woman, but is also sending money to his ex-wife. What do you have? Economic polygamy: you have one man supporting multiple women.)

Under polygamy, the top 1% of men controlling resources would have 20% of the women. The 20% most attractive women, of course. The top 5% of men would have probably have the next 30% of women. So, in essence, the top 5% of men would have 50% of the women; leaving 95% of men to compete over the remaining 50% least attractive women.

In other words, under polygamy, MOST men will not have women -- period. And those who do will end up with generally unattractive women (think 500+ lbs with warts on their nose and abrasive voices); and they'll be danged happy to have them. In fact, under polygamy the 500+ pound woman with warts on her nose would secure a far better man than she could secure under monogamy!

Historically, we have been polygamous. This is provable by the fact that men are 20% bigger than women on average. Polygamy is a system that engenders lots and lots of wars to get rid of excess males, castrations to foster social stability, etc.

It's a really really bad deal for men overall.

While the hobby is most assuredly a form of underground polygamy; bever imagine for one minute that overt polygamy is in your best interests as a man.

Social monogamy and covert polygamy exist in a very delicate dynamic tension. You don't want to tip the balance too far or we'll find our sons getting castrated.

As for so thoroughly satisfying a man that he hasn't the time or inclination for anyone else; that is certainly possible. Harems usually have a "dominant" wife. However, most women can't sustain this for more than 5 years -- that's why it's called the "7 year itch."

I'll admit, though, that I once was touched by a pro so ... thoroughly ... that I had no desire for sex for the next three days. That's the only time that ever happened; but I guess then that it is possible!

:-)

(1)Devlin, R. (2006) Sexual Utopia in Power, The Occidental Quarterly, Summer 2006
(2) Bereczkei, T.; Voros, S.; Gal, A.; Bernath, L. (1997), "Resources, attractiveness, family commitment; reproductive decisions in human mate choice", Ethology 103 (8): 681–699
(3) Buss, D.M.; Barnes, M. (1986), "Preferences in human mate selection", Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 50 (3): 559–570, doi:10.1037/0022-3514.50.3.559
(4) Gilles Saint-Paul (May 2008), Genes, Legitimacy and Hypergamy: Another Look at the Economics of Marriage, CEPR Discussion Paper No. DP6828, University of Toulouse I - GREMAQ-IDEI; Centre for Economic Policy Research (CEPR)

The numbers look kinda funny though. But if the point is that women are in charge, I agree. I would venture to say that if men were dominant humans would be extinct by now.

2CentsWorth2304 reads

Why not allow same sex marriages?  After all, why should us heteosexuals be the only ones to be miserable?  Let the Gays go through the divorce ringer like the rest of us.

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