For a second there, I thought you were going to be spreading 'Sports apparel for all and out-sourcing to third world countries.'
Glad we cleared THAT up!
BTW, loved your earlier post on the nature of religious institutions. I feel the same way.
Respect the spiritual, distrust the religious.
what an awesome movie with Bill Mayer. You want to see people's true colors come out. Then just question them about their God.
I am looking for tickets to see Bill Mayer in Atlanta now. Big fan of his after that movie.
Madison
As you posted on here a little last fall, you probably have seen how polarized this board is. You are probably going to get people saying the movie or Maher is great, and others (who seem to be the vocal majority on here) who say Maher is a liberal idiot. Oh, and then you will get a few who will make one of their few non-polarized posts just to prove me wrong out of spite.
As for me, I haven't seen the movie, but I saw Maher in concert a few years ago and he was funny, insightful, and intelligent. He also wasn't as "liberal only" as many would paint him.
Here's some of his religious stuff about a third of the way through this clip:
Bill Maher can be both funny with his comedy and a liberal idiot
I saw Al Frankin Dec 06 in Kuwait....I almost passed because of his political stance...but went anyway. He was funny as hell..along with the others on the USO tour. Maher might be the same way..I'll never know. He is an idiot that I don't wish to see.
Mahr is pretty much correct about religious zealots and about much of religion. The problem is that he condemns 100% of it. He thinks he’s 100% correct and anything religious is 100% wrong. His intolerance for all things religious is just as bad and in some ways worse than that very intolerance that he rails against.
Prophets, sons of god and promoted egotistical men to grab power and control others are not religions. They get rich by manipulating others and stealing their money. Hence, there is no religions.
There is no rleigion
I don't think so. Certainly some religions fit your mold. Others resemble it.
In your pretending to know, have you ever examined what some people get in return for having their power usurped, being manipulated and having their money stolen?
You have no basis in fact (as usual) to make your flat assertions.
Good points, however can you enlighten me about the religions that actually don't fleece money, don't preach hate and bigotry, aren't hypocritical(do as I say but not as I do), aren't led by men who have severe power issues and who seem to have a sexual element in their agenda and who treat women as equals and not property or underlings?
All the religions I have seen and read about do just that...am I missing something?
After careful thought maybe Buddhism has a crack at being "the one". Seriously, if you know of any I would be very interested to know as I would like to learn more about them/it.
Of the major U.S. religions I know very little about the inner workings of the Jewish or Muslim religions. The Catholic religion is just another Christian religion like Protestant but even more ceremonial, more structured and with a greater hierarchy. The vast majority of Protestant religions are not on TV. They are not run or operated by televangelists. Most are barely part of any organization larger than themselves. Most do belong to a larger group of their same denominations but that is not where their loyalties rest. The tithing that their congregations make (in most of these churches) is 100% voluntary. The use of the money is controlled by the local church. Most do extremely good work both locally and in their national and international missionary work. By definition all Christians are evangelical, but the term has been distorted. Most are not super evangelical. Many are not evangelical at all. In many areas you will find two churches of a given denomination and one will call themselves evangelical and the other will not. Likewise very few proselytize much.
The whole hypocrisy aspect is one of the least understood and most misrepresented by religious critics. Yes, many religious people are quite vocal about living a moral life. But if you listen closely they also freely acknowledge that everyone is a “sinner”, themselves included. Just because one can not live a “perfect” life that doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t keep trying.
Most do not have hatred or bigotry in their minds or hearts. Yes, some do and those are the ones that are sought out by the media and critics as the ones to hold up for you to see. In some places they are not even in a minority, but there are many places where they barely exist. Social bigots do tend to seek each other out and many do tend to call themselves religious, but they in reality they are not. They are fakes. BTW, there are also plenty of haters and bigots that have never seen the inside of a church and are of such a conviction that you most likely will never see that change (i.e. never enter a church or become religious).
If you truly want to try to find a congregation that you might like or feel at home in, the best and almost only way to find one is to attend one and make your own judgments. If that doesn’t work out try another and another. An alternate way would be to ask friends that seem to be happy, live a healthy life and have your respect. A lot of these people in your life do not wear their religion on their sleeve. You might stay away from Baptists, especially Southern Baptists as well as the other more evangelical ones such a Church of God or ones with the word Evangelical in their name.
I was raised in organized religion but personally gave it up many years ago for a much more personal spirituality. Organized religion didn’t work for me, but I’ve seen it work just fine for many friends and family members. I went through some personal life struggles that were “solved” through a re-attainment of this spirituality. Some of the aspects of organized religion that don’t work me struck me more mildly, but I’ve always been a loner. For me I can some up my involvement as Religion is a demonstration of people showing how much they love God. Spirituality on the other hand is a personal expression of how much God love me. I don’t pray for God to do things for other people and things. I only pray for God to help me and give me the strength, courage and wisdom so that I can do the things that I am supposed to do. And that generally means things outside and beyond myself.
I greatly appreciate the time you took to answer my question.
I was not totally clear in my question...I was not talking about the extremes of religions...I was referring to the everyday.
I do not believe in "god". At least the god that a few guys sat around and made head of the world conveniently invisible to everyone. The bible being a rule book with such loose interpretation it can be "used" by any organization to keep it's followers in line and advance an agenda.
To have a loyal group of followers (cult members) you need a little sugar to entice and them and a lot of indoctrination and fear based dogma to keep them there. Catholics are wonderful at this. Sure some religions do there little bit...but mark my words it's for the money and for the public image. What do you think the sentence "If you do such and such you're going to burn in hell" would do to a child? You grow up with such garbage, you believe it. And the coined phrase..."the fear of god". How aweful...but an effective tool of fear.
The god that is promoted by nearly all religions is judgemental and hateful...UNLESS you live the way he/it says....and since he/it is nowhere to be seen , who the hell knows if he/it even said anything. And by said I mean the bible or anything that comes out of god's so called messengers. I can't see air but sure as shit cut off my supply and I die. I don't believe in god and yet low and behold...I'm still here...no bolt of lightening...no armegedon.
In one breath god is said to be loving and gentle but be a homosexual or I don't know, don't believe in this god and the hounds of hell will be nipping at your ankles. And who the fuck saw god write this tripe anyway?
Personally I think religion is/was based on a group of men who saw an opportunity to use manipulation and fear instead of outright violence to gain followers. The violence followed if those resisted or if a group did not want any part of the cult...reminiscent of the Christians trying to tame savages and turn them into cult members.
Rightwing..I want no part of any religion that is based on anything to do with the bible or god. I do believe that there are entities (non gendered) that are far more advanced or civilized if you will than us mere humans...the forces of nature alone show that in real terms that there is plenty far bigger than us.
And finally as a woman, I think that the god that is revered by the current religions is a misogynistic a$$hole along with all his little messengers. The bible seems to be full of shit women have been blamed for and we will never know the truth...only the truth that suited an agenda at the time.
Do you know why the bible has not been re-written to catch up with the times? The control it has now would be lost in translation and what the fuck would the churches do then?
As for your comment about those people with hatred in their hearts being the ones sort out by the media...I just have to go down stairs to the couple that live under me and spend 5 minutes listening to their babble about fairy tales and how those that are not followers of god will go to hell. I did say to them ...you have to believe there is a hell to fear it. When I told them I was not religious and did not believe there is a god...at least not like the one they believe in they almost had a fit. I thought better than letting them know I fuck men for money and love fucking women ...well I have not seen the gates of hell and don't lose sleep at night letting it bother me.
Hmmmm...maybe I'll choose one of the Greek Goddesses in Greek mythology to worship....hang on it's mythology...not real.
If those that want to believe there is a god and want to live by the rule book go right ahead...just stay the fuck away from me.
And leave that shit out of government. Don't use god/religion(et al) to control what people can and cannot do with their bodies. As I have said before...the most hateful, ignorant and judgemental people I have ever met have been religious (from my experience).
Ok that about does it. I must say that I am purely speaking from my own experiences and what I have seen and heard.
My favorite guy in the movie was the one who really believed he was Christ. I love stuff like that.
-- Modified on 5/26/2009 10:10:15 AM
In that case I'm the Goddess Nike. And I will write a book called "Nike's Way" and spread love and fairness throughout the universe.
For a second there, I thought you were going to be spreading 'Sports apparel for all and out-sourcing to third world countries.'
Glad we cleared THAT up!
BTW, loved your earlier post on the nature of religious institutions. I feel the same way.
Respect the spiritual, distrust the religious.
Your description of what you believe religion to be is EXACLTY a description of the radical and extreme sides of religion. You pick at the edges and claim that a cursory knowledge to be a complete and adequate understanding. You are woefully misinformed to the realities of the vast majority of how those inside religion lead their lives.
If something doesn’t exist (i.e. God) how can that something be misogynistic? Or for that matter how can it hold any power whatsoever?
The Bible has been rewritten many times very recently. If it were to be rewritten to meet your needs then it wouldn’t be the Bible anymore.
Your description of your neighbors didn’t demonstrate any hatred that I could see, which was the premise of your description. It outlined several things but not hatred.
I gave you suggestions that if carried out, would give a much clearer and more appropriate understanding of religious people. The fact that you don’t believe in God certainly would put a damper on your motivational factors. The other fact that you indicated you would never carry out the suggestions indicate that your mind was already made up and you really weren’t open to any new ideas.
The fact that you do believe in the existence of a power greater than yourself indicates that you would be open to some form of spirituality. The Bible is not needed for that path. There are also spiritual paths that do not require you to even call your version of a higher power to be called God. I wish you well.
First I have made no claim that I am an authority...I mentioned quite clearly these observations and feeling were from my own personal experience.
"If something doesn’t exist (i.e. God) how can that something be misogynistic? Or for that matter how can it hold any power whatsoever?"
I feel it doesn't exist..those who are cult members do and with what has been demonstrated and voiced in church edicts etc...to me it appears misogynistic. As for the power churches (religion) has...just look at how they stick their noses into government...gay marriage...abortion. Most religions are "boys clubs" with very few if any women in high positions...Catholic church to name one right off the top of my head. Islam, Muslim.....
I will concede that my description of my neighbors reaction was not hatred...I should have used a better description...like the focus on the family movement...or are they part of the zealots you mention?
My mind is made up...religion as it stands is not about universal love and forgiveness and acceptance..it's about power and manipulation and money.
Yes I am open to some form of spirituality...it has no name or gender...it is air, the elements and a very deep belief in who I am and how I can improve on a day to day existence. I also wish you well.
You're right about the re-writing of the bible...how it wouldn't be the bible anymore..it would demonstrate a lot more fairness and less judgement and more understanding. but if that did happen, then the fear of god wouldn't have the same effect then would it?
In summary. You asked for help understanding. I offered an honest opinion that your personal observations while very valid in some circles, were short sighted when considered as flat assertions and that there are plenty (even a majority) of religious people that do NOT fit your mold. I even told you how to find them to show yourself. BTW, There are very few women in high positions in the non religious world.
You are basically saying that I am wrong and you aren’t interested in taking my advice. To which I can only respond with. Why did you ask in the first place?
At the risk of looking like I’m trying to pound sand up a dead horse’s ass (pardon the overly visual analogy. I’m not referring to your lovely ass. It’s just an expression) there are many many religious people that are extremely tolerant and loving of everyone and I DO mean EVERYONE.
p.s. Just to reiterate, I’m not one of them as I’m not a very religious person but I do know many. None of them fear God.
(given your alias) the people you're defending fall almost exclusively into the socially progressive, politically liberal, left wing branch of religiosity. The right wing? Not so tolerant, not so loving, not so much fun to worship with...
the world, the nation, or religious communities.
If you want to try to drag ME into this. . . I'm not even religious. I'm not defending anyone.
I agree that there are more intolerant religious people are on the right than on the left, but I still contend that the vast majority of conservative and religious people are indeed tolerant and loving. People that shy away from all religion never see them. They only see the vocal ones and the ones the media wants them to see.
Up front: I am an atheist with a spiritual appreciation for the beauty of the scope and complexity of the Universe as we know it and as we are continually discovering it.
I was raised catholic and the vast majority of my extended family are practicing catholics. I also have many church-going friends and acquaintances. In the business world and in other areas of my life, the majority of the people I come in contact with are religiously affiliated by their own proclamation.
I also have known quite a few people that are not religious at all, are atheists, or practice non-God-centric religions (ie. Buddhism or Taoism).
Here is my basic, general impression of these two different categories of people:
The religious people tend to be more judgmental, more strident in their views, and less tolerant of any differences in other people.
The non-religious people tend to judge people on a case-by-case basis, tend to be more open to other points of view, and are generally more tolerant or even embrace differences among others.
There are obviously quite a few exceptions within both populations. I know some people whose life is based on a faith in God that are interested in listening and considering my thoughts on the subject. I have enjoyable and enlightening discussions with them. I respect them for the way they live their lives and they seem to respect me as well.
I also know atheists that are rigidly opposed to anything having to do with faith or God or religion. Their intolerance is just as extreme as some of the worst religious zealots.
But here is the thing, despite the few exceptions, I have far more respect for the way non-religious people live their lives than do the religious folks. Hypocrisy, intolerance, prejudice, blind allegiance, and irrational views are not the sole purview of the religious, but for the most part, they seem to have embraced these characteristics as virtues rather than liabilities. Despite the fact that Christians preach tolerance for others and goodwill to all, their leaders rail against anyone that dares to live differently from them. Their congregations tend to follow like unthinking sheep. And, worst of all, they try to enact laws that tell force everyone to live as they think they should. I could cite similar examples from each of the major world religious orders.
I think what drives most non-religious people crazy is that it seems that the majority of the religious either want to convert us, show us how we are simply wrong, or want to legislate how we should live our lives. I don’t care how anyone else wants to live as long as it hurts no one else and it doesn’t interfere with the way I want to live my life. Why can’t these people seem to understand that?
I heartily concur.
I really don't care what kind of fairy tale people want to believe, my tolerance ends when they try to impose their morality onto my life.
I used to be quite tolerant of religious people in the interest of "respecting their religion", unfortunately the majority of "Christians" have not shown me the same tolerance. So fuck em. I now say exactly what's on my mind.
your defense of religious people. And defense is what you're plainly engaging in...I'm unsure why you'd suggest otherwise.
Also, I'm not dragging you anywhere...I was reading this thread that you've been engaged in, and I found your comments amusing due to the afore mentioned irony-factor...that's about all...
Whether or not I'd like to shy away from religious conservatives, it's not an option. They're in my family, my neighborhood, my workplaces (current and former), my extended social circle, etc.
I live far from the bible-belt, and yet there they are...
Even if I were cut off from all media--from FOX news and neo-con blogs, to the Indypendent Paper and that thing homeless people hand out for a dollar, I would have plenty of exposure to religious conservatives, their bumper stickers, their attempts to turn personal beliefs into legislation, their beloved ex-president.
I wouldn't think there'd be much love lost for the activist branch of this group here...on a website devoted to the patrons of hookers...some of them are, of course, (gay and straight) hobbyists as well...but don't expect them to show up and post bail for you should you ever be busted.
As for the politically and socially progressive Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc...they're A-OK with me...
Maybe it’s a fine line of distinction for you guys. So somehow people are thinking that I’m defending the Christian zealots and proselytizers. Far from it. Look at my original response above. I actually AGREED with a portion of Bill Maher. I think it must be that our definitions of rightwing are substantially different. The large majority of conservative Christians I've known throughout my life would have absolutely no qualms at all bailing me out of jail for solicitation (or most any misdemeanor). If I’m ever down on my luck for any reason, I’d much rather depend and rely upon any of those religious people I know than any of the liberals in my circles.
No doubt the majority of Christians GaG has come in contact with are zealots and proselytizers. No doubt many or even the majority of the looney and annoying people GaG has come in contact with are Christian zealots. No doubt that the people lobbying for new or stricter laws that you know will infringe on your private life and choices are Christians. I concede all that, but that still does even come close to proving that I’m wrong in my earlier assertions to famkejensen that the majority of religious people (including Christians) do NOT behave in those negative ways or worse. Remember (or go back and look) that I started out trying to show her that not all religious people were full of nothing but bigotry and hate. The majority is tolerant and loving and they leave you alone almost 100% of the time.
BTW, There are very few women in high positions in the non religious world.
And where did this attitude come from and where is it perpetuated?
In reality you were trying to push a boulder up hill. In order for me to listen to anything to do with religion..I have to first believe there is a god...the god that religious people believe in.
Look, you believe in the god that billions have believed for centuries. I choose not to believe in a fairytale and have those beliefs shoved down my neck by way of government. If religion was a purely personal thing and not involved in government policy, constitution et al...I could care less if someone worshiped a tree stump. But when things in my life are effected by a something scribbled in a book that not everyone believes in, well you can understand my ire.
The issue about women was somewhat of a change of subject, but the role of women in society transcends religion although there's no denying that religion has played a major role throughout history. But to properly judge the role or impact of religion in TODAY'S society and culture it would make sense to examine it's actions and influence TODAY, not 100 or 1000 years ago.
Your lack of a belief in God was pretty much my starting point. BUT I really do not understand how you are all of a sudden assigning a definition about my belief in a God, when I clearly stated something totally different.
I fully understand your "ire" about the government adopting any religion or even any religious symbols or traits. This is why the First Amendment is still in place, to prevent the government from doing so. Things haven't been 100% successful there (e.g. Ten commandments on the walls of government buildings, prayer in school). The correct thing to do is to work at correcting this directly or through our Representative government. The inappropriate thing to do is to try to destroy religion. I'm not claiming that is your goal, but it simply describes the end of the spectrum for guys like Bill Maher.
If I may digress a moment. . .
Somehow disallowing religious people from participating in our representative government at any or all levels is also incorrect. There are things that religious and non religious people can legitamitely politic or lobby for that appear religious but really are not, such as abortion. People do not consider the outlawing of the murder of an breathing human being to be a religious matter (although it is one of the Ten Cammandments), yet it is OK to kill a human being that is living and surving simply without the use of just their lungs.
But I aggree totally, let's get rid of the wrongs from religion while still looking for and maybe even endorsing the good from it.
