"There are guys in decent marriages who have very infrequent sex or no sex, and for those guys, the other options are to have a girlfriend or to split up an otherwise good marriage. So maybe seeing a provider is the least of the evils."
That says it very well, actually. For me, seeing providers is a matter of emotional survival, as virtually nothing is available on the home front. Finding another S.O. is not an option either, as there are children involved and I *will not* abandon children.
I found another quote interesting as well:
"I don't think I ever met a girl in the business who hadn't experienced some sort of abuse -- sexual abuse as a child, rape, or a physically or emotionally abusive relationship. I was not forced into the life by unfortunate circumstances, but I was raped when I was 19. It's interesting to note that."
I have heard this from many other sources as well, but never before from someone actually in the business. Then again, there is a lady I see regularly, who gets consistently great reviews, who makes it a point to stress on her web site that she grew up in a healthy home, with loving parents and had a very happy childhood.
Cheers!
I finally got around to reading that article that was posted the other day by a fellow TER member. It had a LOT of good points that hit home. I wonder are a lot of my fellow hobbyists like this. Read the excerpts I took from the article and decide...
"There are guys in decent marriages who have very infrequent sex or no sex, and for those guys, the other options are to have a girlfriend or to split up an otherwise good marriage. So maybe seeing a provider is the least of the evils. But now, it seems to me that most of these guys have good marriages, and they have gotten addicted to the hobby and are risking everything for it. "
"I think for single men, seeing providers really impairs their ability to be in a real relationship. Providers totally cater to their needs, unlike in a real relationship where it's give-and-take. It gives them unrealistic expectations of women. "
"It's funny: There are not that many really rich clients, although I have seen some very well-known men. I would say most clients are middle- to upper-middle-class, and if they took a hard look at their finances they would realize they couldn't afford this. "
Now for the providers, read the excerpt -
"The reason I'm single and childless is because of the business. I'm middle-aged and I don't have the four things I really wanted in life -- a partner, a family, an education and a career. All four of those were put off by the business. If I have to fall back on it because of an emergency, I'll know it's an emergency that was created by being in the business to start with. "
"It also kept me from forming real relationships. Ladies who are in the business make a conscious decision to avoid intimacy. I have many dear friends who are former clients. Many. But those relationships are still not complete. "
"I hate this business, and I'd love to say "never again," but I can't. Because it's so very difficult to integrate yourself into society after you've been a provider. "
"...you feel different from other women; you fear them, in a way. You're certain they'd judge you if they knew. In other ways you feel sorry for them because they're so naïve. There's a wall between you and the rest of the world that I'm not sure ever completely goes away. "
I'm interested in what EVERYONE thinks so post your opinion PLEASE!
Guz
btw, HAPPY EASTER
seeing providers has in no way impaired my ability to have a "real" relationship. I have been in a situation where there was no way I could have had a "real" relationship for over a year now (ended a nine yer relationship at the end of 2002, lost my job in February 2003 and was out of work until October, and have been financially hampered since then by people who have had more pressing needs than I who I have given money to). As such, seeing providers was a way for me to still be with women...and it has only reinforced my eventual desire to get back into a "real" relationship. I have never had a relationship in my life where the woman wasn't sexually open and responsive, so that area has never been an issue, and I am a give and take kind of guy with anyone I care about...partner, lover, friend, or provider.
That's just me, though.
I can't see where seeing a provider impairs my ability to be in a "real" relationship. I'd be interested to know what unrealistic expectations I may have as a result of seeing my Favorite Lady on a regular basis. If anything, I have unrealistic expecations of my Favorite Lady because my relationships over the years have impaired my ability to just let go and enjoy what's offered without expectations.
The expectation that tops the list? I wish I could see her more than once a week.
My observations have been that there is an emotional toll that a provider pays for her chosen line of work. Few people really thrive as "outsiders" to society, and unfortunately, working "under the radar" rather forces that on our ladies.
The constant awareness of the intolerance and judgement of people do not participate in this industry wears on a lady, as well. One woman remarked to me that she is certain no man would ever marry her after she retires, which is untrue. She will undoubtedly carry around the uncomfortable awareness of this potential for unwarranted condemnation for most of her life, and I suspect that the only possibility she has for a healthy long term relationship is with someone who knows about her work and understands, but she has so many lovable dimensions that it is impossible to think that she might think herself an undesirable match.
Yoda
The real reason is that she was raised to feel unworthy. But she can work her way through that, if she is bravely willing to do the work required.
I agree. Most of the providers I've come to know and call my friends are smart, funny, talented and frankly, lovable women.
I posted a message last year about my feelings on dating (implying the possibility of marrying) a provider. In my message, I said I found dating a provider socially was very rewarding and fulfilling. One of the reasons I cited was the issue (or more precisely, the non-issue) of sex: Because of the relationship's very nature, the matter of sex is settled immediately. The usual effort found in dating a civilian; where the parties engage in a complex and often confusing dance while negotiating the entry of sex into the mix, is eliminated. This frees the couple to devote their time and energy into exploring the deeper areas of their relationship, thereby advancing it faster toward whatever end it may lead.
It so happens the year-long relationship I had with my provider turned girlfriend came to a natural end. Her being a provider carried no weight in the decision. I loved her and respected her. In fact, part of me (no, not THAT part) still loves her. It just didn't work out. But, I'd STILL consider a provider as a girlfriend and potential wife.
after you began dating her socially? If not, why do you assume that she would just naturally want to have sex with you any more than a civilian would, without your having to engage in the dance?
when it comes to relationships with their clients providers often operate on a subconscious level, being unsure of their own feelings (of worth and belonging) ... and they invariably sabotage their own chances for happiness (assuming such a thing is possible)
i know of a bright young provider who recently gambled away $50K of her life savings in one week ... ostensibly she was trying to use the earnings to retire from the business, but when she lost everything she actually felt it was a pleasant catharsis of sorts -- she was laundering her soul clean (by losing her "tainted" income)
of course, this doesn't apply to *every* girl, but it does to the majority -- the money (and lifestyle) is an addiction in the truest sense ... and if you're the poor dumb-bastard(TM) who's in love with such a provider you fail to see these things, until one day she walks away with a huge pile of your money and you're left thinking (for the first time) how utterly absurd it is to be in a "relationship" with a woman who says: "if you *love* me, you'll support me so i won't have to fuck other men"
of course by the time you realize this, it's already too late!
LOL
--
right T?
I don't know what all the talk is about concerning married guys. Every guy I know who sees a provider is single. The survey on TER found that on this site 50% are single and 50% married. I really believe providers are like mother Theresa, they feed the hungry. Single men who see providers are guys who go out to the clubs and come home alone. I am one of them; it is very very difficult for a regular guy to get a date. (The show average joe proves that.) Therefore, you go see a provider to have your basic relationship needs addressed. The reason its difficult for many men to have a relationship is because women discriminate based on a man's height, weight, muscluarity, level of hair (or baldness), educational background, financial condition, etc. However, providers for a fee are willing to agree not to discriminate against men. I am personally very thankful that women are willing to accept money from me to be intimate with me. Also, why is it a bad thing for a women to accept money to have casual sex, but it's ok for a women to have free causual sex with a guy she just met at a bar or club? It all seems the same to me except the girl who gets money gets more out of it.
Martin Luther once said while preaching (and I am paraphrasing) the only acceptable sex is sex within marriage or between a prostitute and her client. Martin Luther then explained that women who provide sex for marriage get committment in return, women who provide sex for money get financial security in return, but women who provide sex for nothing all they get is used.
Thomas Aquinos during a debate regarding the need for legalized prostitution once said that prostitution is like the sewer system in the palace. He said that no one wanted to know the sewer was there or talk about it, but if it wasn't there then all the crap would back up in palace and the aristicrates would have to deal with it.
I read the entire article and every problem this girl faced stemmed from society looking down on sex workers and risks relating to LE. If prostitution were legalized and the stigma removed the problems discussed in the article would go away. In addition, the women had a chance to live the life she wanted, but she married the wrong man. This happens to many women who are not providers. Finally, in regards to the career issue; I work as an investment banker and I can say first hand that the women working in my profession are just as unhappy as the women in this article. We had one younger girl get married in the office and all that we heard from the women for two weeks is how lucky this girl was to be able to quit her job, get married and live as a housewife supported by a "wonderful" man. Believe me NO women is happy working and that covers any line of work except maybee teachers, day care workers and jobs where women get to work with children.
My ability to have a relationship was already impaired before I decided to see providers. I won't explain the particulars of why. It's a very long story. But from the time I made my last effort at a relationship to the time I saw my first provider, four years had passed. That's four years of celebacy, and no, I wasn't in prison or any other institution that would have restricted my sex life. I restricted it. All the relationships I had were simply that traumatic.
By comparison, my experience with providers has been like night and day. I've enjoyed all of it. I've been motivated to see that they enjoy it, and I enjoy the company of providers. I've alos been friendlier and more personable to women in general because of it.
An SO's out of the question for me. Providers are my only outlet. It's an excellent life. I'm at peace with that, and I'm resolved to it.
/Zin
Are we all victims? Are we all wimpy simpy panty-waist people who get lured into one side or another of white slavery and ruin our lives?
Okay, I haven't read the article -- but I've read the quotes above, and they seem to me to be nothing more than recycled, reactionary B.S. about the evils of prostitution. Reefer madness redux.
We're all adults here; we're all well informed. We all have means. We are here for only one reason: because we CHOOSE to be here. If we have personal weaknesses, foibles or character defects that lead us to be hobbyists or providers, that's something IN US, NOT in the business.
The "business" can benefit from being legitimized -- Good Grief, I, frankly, don't think there's a lot of difference between what a lot of providers do and what a good psychotherapist does (and for me, providers were always more effective). But let's be clear -- the "business" is not "doing" things to people, it's not victimizing them. They may victimize themselves, choose not to be disciplined, or choose to be disrespectful or abusive of those around them...but that's their choice.
P.S. to loverofwomen -- I agree completely. I had an S.O. who was a provider, and it was the most exciting relationship I've ever had. And yes, if the relationship hadn't ended for its own reasons, I might have married her.
The only comment I see in the above posts that implies victimzation was about a woman having been raised to have self-esteem issues, but that one went on to say that it's possible to work through those issues. (We ALL have family-of-origin issues!)
I didn't read the article either, but none of the posts here have insisted that prostitution is evil. The single guys here refute the quotes from the article submitted by the original poster.
I agree with you about personal choice, and the responsibility that comes with it. I also agree that good providers and good psychotherapists must have similar traits...My Favorite Lady has had a profoundly positive impact on my self-image and therefore my life.
But, I think you may have missed the point...because sex is at the very core of human identity, and this industry attracts large numbers of people who have not grown past that level of self-awareness for whatever reason...call it shame or fear, it's about choosing not to do the work of spiritual and emotional growth.
That isn't to say that everyone who chooses to participate in what Sedona calls "The Game" is somehow damaged or victimized...but the writer apparently has observed a large number of such people.
Yoda
before you comment. While I by no means agree with all of it, it strikes me as being pretty balanced and well researched. Certainly not the typical moralistic propaganda.
Cheers!
I would say that it's a bunch of recycled crap, too, except that the woman involved is writing about her own unresolved issues.
If it were someone who never experienced the business, and who wrote these things out of an agenda, then, yes, it would clearly be crap.
It was interesting to me that she worked in the profession for many years, saw the advent of the internet, and still never resolved them. I think she started with the common, sick cultural outlook on prostitution, and never could replace it with anything that made her feel healthy about it. Very unfortunate to have happy memories tainted this way, because otherwise, she seems to have had a stellar career.
There are some things that I've never seen mentioned in another article-- like wives confronting her. Or finally concluding that her many clients also thought of her as a second-class citizen.
/Zin
"There are guys in decent marriages who have very infrequent sex or no sex, and for those guys, the other options are to have a girlfriend or to split up an otherwise good marriage. So maybe seeing a provider is the least of the evils."
That says it very well, actually. For me, seeing providers is a matter of emotional survival, as virtually nothing is available on the home front. Finding another S.O. is not an option either, as there are children involved and I *will not* abandon children.
I found another quote interesting as well:
"I don't think I ever met a girl in the business who hadn't experienced some sort of abuse -- sexual abuse as a child, rape, or a physically or emotionally abusive relationship. I was not forced into the life by unfortunate circumstances, but I was raped when I was 19. It's interesting to note that."
I have heard this from many other sources as well, but never before from someone actually in the business. Then again, there is a lady I see regularly, who gets consistently great reviews, who makes it a point to stress on her web site that she grew up in a healthy home, with loving parents and had a very happy childhood.
Cheers!
The rape topic was discussed a few weeks ago in this forum...the statistics in the US are that between 25% and 33% of women over the age of 16 have been raped at least once. It stands to reason that the same statistic would apply within the industry.
Yoda
Except for infrequent sex, I have a lovely marriage. So, am I full of sh_t when I say that and then go to a provider occasionally? Well, my wife is shy, and I haven't been able to convince her to seek counseling, yet when we do have sex, it is terrific, tender and very satisfying. BUT, it's simply not often enough; without going into the reasons, I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater AND I am not willing to get laid only very occasionally . . . so, I pony up some jingle and get sated by several gorgeous and very accommodating "providers." My dya-to-day temperament stays even, I don't resent her for not making love to me, and I gain time to work on getting her to counseling. Or . . . maybe I'm just B.S.ing myself into rationalizing my behavior. All I know is, I love my SO and don't want a divorce and maybe I'm not smart enough to figure out any other way to handle it yet.