I think that obsession of whether he'll get lucky ruins the sex. Big time.
In my case, I was always the one hoping to score. Except when the guy was super desperate. It made me run out screaming lol! Ewww. As much as thee are the group of guys who think "oh, I have to pay, I must not be awesome" to me a man who knows what he wants, and uses his resources to get it knows the secret to life. Just get what you want and stop bitching. Much more sexy. LolFor an average looking guy, dating is the worst. Fruitless first dates, time and money wasted.
Maybe it's where I live, but I never see hot chicks at the market. Some are at the gym, but many women dislike being hit on there.
Banging hot raunchy providers is so effortless.
Why would I even want to go back to dating or banging an average chick in my league? I don't even want to try anymore.
I'm also too shortsighted to see what I'm really missing.
Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up.
Have you guys put dating on the backburner because of the ease of p4p?
Plus what you are willing to date gets all fucked up.
I was married for 32 years. Got used to be seeing hotties whilst lobbying. I cancelled my match membership because there was no way I was seeing a lady mg age. Fucked up for sure.
Could have seen a lady via SA tomorrow. 25 years younger than me but she was not a hard body . Pass guess I'm dieing alone!
Because they get used to seeing providers and never develop any skills at seduction, commonly called "game." Seeing providers is easier and so it foments laziness. Those that don't keep their finger in the civvie world (no pun intended), are going to be missing the skills they need to ever attract a woman that may have long-term potential.
That may be true of the younger guys. But guys like myself, who just ended my second 16 year marriage. Not looking for another committed relationship is the life of choice.
After my last ex asked me if I'm looking for a different woman, (I told her no) and thought yes, a different one every day.
The hobby has given me the courage to have women friends, without sex being the reason for the dance. Sex happens in a much easier way because I'm letting the game come to me in the civie world.
And with the p4p ladies, I get the freedom to experience top quality sex in ways I have not found otherwise.
Best in both worlds.
After my last ex asked me if I'm looking for a different woman, (I told her no) and thought yes, a different one every day.
The hobby has given me the courage to have women friends, without sex being the reason for the dance. Sex happens in a much easier way because I'm letting the game come to me in the civie world.
And with the p4p ladies, I get the freedom to experience top quality sex in ways I have not found otherwise.
Best in both worlds.
secret to balance for us older guys when you say you let the civvie sex come to you. I spend a lot of time at the gym, and that is where I get most of my civvie sex. As the OP said, women at the gym HATE to be hit on, but if you play it cool and let them find friendship with you first, sex will almost always follow. The P4P is liberating in that it takes away the pressure of always being on the lookout for a sex partner, which in turn, makes you say dumb shit that turns women off.
-- Modified on 7/19/2016 10:41:03 AM
When I was in my teens and 20's I had NO game. Even now, my civvie game is practically nil. I can talk easily with women, make friends, hang out ,etc. But get them into bed? Difficult if not impossible for me. Yes, I am married, yes I have had year long relationships before marriage with sex involved, however, in each of those cases, I didn't choose the woman, she chose me, she initated the sex. Me picking someone up outside of the hobby has never happened. Not conciously. The hobby makes it easy to get sexual gratification and prhaps my civvie skills simply never had a chance to solidfy. Who knows. Heck, I wish I could find a mistress whom I didn't have to pay who would be NSA, but that just doesn't exist in.my world.
I am 35 and I have zero interest in attracting a woman with marriage or long-term relationship potential. I plan to remain single for the rest of my life, and I cringe in horror at the prospect of having to compromise my freedom for a wife or a girlfriend. I just hobby because its a more cost-effective, low-maintenance way to get laid and free up the rest of my time and energy for other stuff that is more important to me. I don't care how good or bad my game is because it would not serve me any purpose.
with apologies to W.S. for the literary license.
a crutch that will impede socialization and marriage, as long as that is something you'd like to have happen in the near term. We do have a society to propagate, after all.
I think the hobby is very useful though for married men and those who are widowed or divorced in order to enjoy sex without a lot of messy entanglements.
I did start to hobby in my 20s, but of course my income was low so my opportunities were slim. It was probably just as well. I was a guy with little game, but I did therapy and forced myself to socialize (I got rid of my TV, even.) until I met someone I felt I could marry.
Of course, if you are pretty sure that marriage is not your bag, you'll probably be doing everyone a favor to stick to the hobby. Why waste the time of a bunch of gals who want a mate
I couldn't agree more!
In my 20's, I did *both* hobbying and civvie dating. Although I admit: I offloaded my V-card onto a provider. If anything, it made civvie dating much easier, because it took sexual pressure off the table, freeing my mind to focus on enjoying a civvie's *mind*. That said, providers were still more attractive than any civvies I dated. My income back then wasn't much, so I hobbied maybe a few times a year. Even so, I got my foot in the door and established myself in the this community.
Between years 2011 through 2015, I even went on a long hiatus, because I was in a serious relationship until 2013. Then I took time to "decompress", so to speak. I returned to the hobby in 2015 with a vengeance. But like MrFisher pointed out, I have no plans to get married---while nearly all civvies my age do---so it looks like I'll be hobbying for the foreseeable future. Unless, of course, I meet a civvie who manages to change my mind.
THIS.
I also think it's important to not get jaded by this. The world of P4P is just the perfect illusion that everyone wants to see.
I think the hobby is very useful though for married men and those who are widowed or divorced in order to enjoy sex without a lot of messy entanglements.
I did start to hobby in my 20s, but of course my income was low so my opportunities were slim. It was probably just as well. I was a guy with little game, but I did therapy and forced myself to socialize (I got rid of my TV, even.) until I met someone I felt I could marry.
Of course, if you are pretty sure that marriage is not your bag, you'll probably be doing everyone a favor to stick to the hobby. Why waste the time of a bunch of gals who want a mate?
I think the hobby is very useful though for married men and those who are widowed or divorced in order to enjoy sex without a lot of messy entanglements.
I did start to hobby in my 20s, but of course my income was low so my opportunities were slim. It was probably just as well. I was a guy with little game, but I did therapy and forced myself to socialize (I got rid of my TV, even.) until I met someone I felt I could marry.
Of course, if you are pretty sure that marriage is not your bag, you'll probably be doing everyone a favor to stick to the hobby. Why waste the time of a bunch of gals who want a mate?
but it doesn't fundamentally change who we are.
If dating to you means "hitting on" and "banging" "hot chicks" "Out of your league" and getting laid on the first date (fruitless).... then it isn't the hobby that is your problem
+1 MZ. Definitely well stated.
i am divorced, and i would rather spend my time and energy on a sure (and fantastic) thing than gamble with will she/won't she, esp. as i tend to become bored with people the more i get to know them (my ex-wife was the exception to the rule, as are my few friends).
the hobby, like money (which you need to hobby) doesn't change you; it just makes you more of who you are.
...shelling out the $300-$500 for a fantastic hour with a hot provider is a better investment of your time, energy, and money than the $300-$500 that you might spend on a series of dates with a civilian who might be less attractive, might or might not put out, and might not be that good if and when she even does put out.
I also share your tendency to get bored with people the more that I know them (with a handful of rare exceptions). By the time I had sex with civilian dates, I had already lost interest in them and felt the urge to move on. I realized that this was neither a good way to treat them, nor a cost-effective allocation of my own time, energy, and money - so I gave up civilian dating for the hobby instead.
You chose this path, now either embrace it or choose another one.
It sounds to me like you have some unrealistic expectations when it comes to dating. Here's a hint, don't focus on the sex first, focus on building a relationship with a woman you find attractive and who shares the same interests as you, then the rest will fall into place. Is it easy? No. Is it instantaneous? No. It's hard and it takes time, but if that is what you want then you got to put in the work. You may have to try and fail several times before you figure it out or find the right woman for you.
Now stop the whining and man up!
Having an indifferent attitude can be useful in dating because it can be taken as the attitude of a man with options. Women are always more interested in men with options than with desperate men
It's a sexual strategy by some all so tied to social standing that it more likely represents what they think they ought to say rather than what they actually believe.
A guy (like me) who is getting laid on a regular basis has no reason to reek of that horrible disease called "desperation"
I don't know if it gives me any more game, I feel like I have always had a decent amount of game, but it does take all the pressure off of civviy dating to "score" a guy can simply be himself, enjoy the company and not spend the entire date obsessing whether or not he is going to get lucky. Women tend to respond to this in my experience and I find myself "scoring" with civvie chicks that most would consider "out of my league" in large because I have fucked literally thousands of women that most would consider "out of my league" so I don't spend the entire date drooling or fawning over the hottie twenty five years younger than me. As so many people have said before me. "Confidence is sexy" That said, Arrogance is almost as unsexy as desperation, the key is knowing the difference.
I was making a point about the projection of a certain attitude/opinion with little regard to its sincerity, a thing SH accuses women of doing one thread down.
I think we want to believe that, but I'm not sure it is the case. Jerkboys tend to have lots of girlfriends. Whether they are top drawer ladies or not I can't say. But jerkboys do pretty well sex-wise.
I think that obsession of whether he'll get lucky ruins the sex. Big time.
In my case, I was always the one hoping to score. Except when the guy was super desperate. It made me run out screaming lol! Ewww.
As much as thee are the group of guys who think "oh, I have to pay, I must not be awesome" to me a man who knows what he wants, and uses his resources to get it knows the secret to life. Just get what you want and stop bitching. Much more sexy. Lol
As much as thee are the group of guys who think "oh, I have to pay, I must not be awesome" to me a man who knows what he wants, and uses his resources to get it knows the secret to life. Just get what you want and stop bitching. Much more sexy. Lol
Like I said in another response, hobbying kept my desperation in check, and made it exponentially easier to approach civvie women. Who, in turn, seemed to really like my socially-proofed "he's been with a woman!" pheromone vibe. I even time my appointments in the afternoons, so I can go out and pick up civvies in bars/clubs afterwards. So of my best bar/club nights happened the same day after hobbying.
Case in point. I remember one time in my mid 20's, I saw a nubile provider, then went to a techno night at a club later. I was a machine! Given how I was acting, one girl mistook me for the DJ, and DFK'ed me to get me to play her favorite song. What did I do? I told her I had a copyright dispute with the artist, and couldn't play it 
. I danced with at least 10 girls in the club, and got a phone number (not from the DFK girl). I still give credit to that provider for making my night great.
Heck, my hobby once led to a long-term relationship that lasted from 2011 to 2013. I met her about 2 weeks after my hobby appointment, when I was still riding the wave of confidence.
-- Modified on 7/19/2016 12:34:32 PM
they are also more attracted to guys that dont spill their guts emotionally. a little mysterious.
Maybe it's where I live, but I never see hot chicks at the market. Some are at the gym, but many women dislike being hit on there.
Banging hot raunchy providers is so effortless.
Why would I even want to go back to dating or banging an average chick in my league? I don't even want to try anymore.
I'm also too shortsighted to see what I'm really missing.
Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up.
Have you guys put dating on the backburner because of the ease of p4p?
me love escorts! fancy included!
However, I have more of a take it or leave it approach. I know I'm going to get laid eventually, so I just go to meetups or barhopping, and chitchat with a variety of different people. If nothing else, I'll get some good food and drink out of the situation. I did have one civie date recently, and it went OK, so I'll probably ask her out again and see where it goes. I'm not riding on any high expectations, though.
If anything, hobbying made it easier and more fun to enjoy women's company as platonic FRIENDS. I'm in quite a few social interest groups. There are women in those groups, obviously. While I do flirt and initiate things with them, for the most part, I apply a "take it or leave" approach, like vantheman666 pointed out. As well as "there's plenty of time; sex can always happen later". I also act more bold with jokes and dance moves. When I *know* beyond a shadow of doubt that I can hobby anytime, seducing a civvie stops being a high priority. Heck, I don't even hobby that often, as my review history shows. Just *knowing* that the option is there puts me at ease like you wouldn't believe.
Civvie women seem to have a nice counter-response to that. They act more free with physical affections, like hugging me more closely or letting me get away with racier moves when we dance together, than they otherwise would. Strange women in clubs even jumped into selfies with me, giving me an opportunity to talk to them. It's all in good fun, with no pressure on my part.
Regular dating was too expensive for me to live up to the expectations of men. Also, I have met potentials in real life, and they turned out to be creepers. Too much time and frustration.
At least here you get to take something home, and get reimbursed for the beauty and clothing upkeep, amongst many other things.
Can I also say, the sexual give and take here is waaaaay better. Guys can daty well. Civvy dating you just don't get that. Maybe it's the age and experience. It's more calm. Everybody knows they're going to get laid.
And if one dude isn't horny for a couple weeks, it's ok! There's always another five to fill in for him while he juices back up. Lol!
-- Modified on 7/19/2016 10:28:15 AM
My gripe with civvies my age isn't BBBJ (the male counterpart of DATY), but DFK. In my 20's, civvies' DFK skills were amazing! Especially with civvies in their early 20's. Skills-wise, some of them exceeded providers, with the sheer passion and sexual energy they were putting into kissing alone. Not even so much the physical aspects of it, but the "visceral" parts. Plus, I was new to the hobby back then, and often found myself with providers who didn't allow DFK (or even LFK) at all, which was a *big* mood-killer for me.
But once I hit my 30's, most civvies in my dating age range (28 to 36) just couldn't DFK well. This includes my ex. They either used a technique I found unarousing, or didn't put in the sexual passion that pushes me to escalate things to the next level. Once we got going further anyway, I was able to enjoy myself, but the DFK part was still lacking.
By the way, I had a really memorable moment at the end of an M&G recently. A visiting provider LFK'ed me while we were outside waiting for our respective rides. She was really good 
! The rough neighborhood only added to the fun ambiance, and made me nostalgic for my 20's, when I had civvie kisses in unlikeliest of places. As opposed to my bed, my couch, or maybe the dance floor in a bar, like today.
(Yeah, maybe kissing is my fetish. Props to providers for helping me discover it and explore it.)
-- Modified on 7/19/2016 1:42:47 PM
up my sexual game. Just like playing with a seasoned pro, who has practiced and honed her skills. I also, practice and take pleasure in providing a fun experience for my partners. Variation of partners really helps with this. I guess it's part of my age too. Where my sexual priorities have changed. Wanting to enjoy the whole process and not just the quest for the great orgasm.
fruitless first dates? If you liked her and she liked you, it's not fruitless or wasted time/money.
Hitting on women at the market or gym? Try "meeting women" at those places. The only place women want to be "hit on" is a singles bar.
As others have said or implied, use P4P to lower your anxiety/need to get laid and accept the fact that civvie girls aren't going to bang you 5 minutes after the first hello.
As long as you don't run out of the cashish lol
Maybe it's where I live, but I never see hot chicks at the market. Some are at the gym, but many women dislike being hit on there.
Banging hot raunchy providers is so effortless.
Why would I even want to go back to dating or banging an average chick in my league? I don't even want to try anymore.
I'm also too shortsighted to see what I'm really missing.
Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up.
Have you guys put dating on the backburner because of the ease of p4p?
I travelled a lot for business and was exposed to many sexy and beautiful civvies, both single and married. Over 25 years I had many intermittent GFs and some regular long distance relationships. One for 8 years. The act of mutual seduction is an incredible high. Nothing like it and so exciting to find out what the sex will be like. They did require maintanence and money had to be spent. For me it all ended 6 years ago when my wife discovered my relationship with a woman 19 years younger. I saved my marriage and swore off the GF thing. Then I discovered escorts. Sexy, professional and discrete. However, i do miss the excitement.
It's not that this hobby has "ruined" regular dating for me, but rather it has *allowed* me to free myself from it. I'm 50, and I realized a couple of years ago that the last time a woman was sincerely interested to date me for reasons having nothing to do with money was 12 years ago. It's not like I'm particularly wealthy, but nevertheless, every civvie relationship I've had since then (including a failed engagement) involved my partner not being honest about why she was dating me. Not surprisingly, these experiences were unsatisfying at best, and at worst I ended up getting scammed. (And no, I wasn't dating women who were much younger than me nor "out of my league.")
I've found that honesty and sincerity works best in all relationships. Since money now will always be a part of the equation, at least when I see a provider, there is no pretending about that aspect. I provide the envelope at the beginning of the date, and with that out of the way we can just enjoy each other's company without pretense. As a consequence, I've had not only much better sex with providers than anyone I've dated in the last 10 years, but more importantly I've made more meaningful connections with fabulous ladies, though while of course respecting the bounds of their privacy.
Basically this hobby has enabled me to remove what I now realize was a toxic influence in my life. I suppose it's not the same as having a true life partner, but I'm at peace accepting that was never going to happen for me.
few months of regular dating when you're focused on having fun and hooking up for sex.
If I want to pursue a woman for something more than that the hobby does not compare.
Maybe it's where I live, but I never see hot chicks at the market. Some are at the gym, but many women dislike being hit on there.
Banging hot raunchy providers is so effortless.
Why would I even want to go back to dating or banging an average chick in my league? I don't even want to try anymore.
I'm also too shortsighted to see what I'm really missing.
Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up.
Have you guys put dating on the backburner because of the ease of p4p?
..and on the rare occasions on which I have revisited the world of civilian dating since I took up the hobby, I realized that my original decision to abandon civilian dating was correct.
Now, keep in mind, I also decided a long time ago that marriage and long-term relationships were not for me, because I value my independence above all things and cannot stand the prospect of compromising my freedom for wife or a girlfriend. (That includes not just sexual freedom but the freedom to live my life as I see fit, like going away for the weekend on short notice, going out at 1AM without having to explain myself, and yes, even leaving the toilet seat up without getting nagged for it). If you are looking for a wife or a marriage partner, then obviously civilian dating is more important and ultimately more rewarding.
If you are just looking for sex and a bit of companionship, however (as in my case), then yes, I would say that you will probably find the civilian scene disappointing, compared to the hobby. I chose the hobby over civilian hookups because I found the former to be more cost-effective, i.e. I could have better sex with hotter women with a lower total expenditure of money, time, and energy. Yes, providers' rates cost more up front, but the hidden costs of the civilian scene add up and (more importantly) it can really suck up a huge chunk of your time and energy and only result in sex with generally less attractive women with weaker erotic skills. I would rather pay more up front for better sex with hotter women and thereby free up the rest of my time and energy for other, non-sexual hobbies.
"Thanks, ladies, for spoiling me and fucking me up"
Don't blame us, you chose this path. I always wonder about this when young single guys book me. Get out there, date, get to know women..
It always amazes me how a guy can complain about getting something that is so freaking awesome.
It doesn't matter whether the glass is half empty or half full. Shut up and drink!
Don't blame us, you chose this path. I always wonder about this when young single guys book me. Get out there, date, get to know women..