That is the reason that was given on the tapes for the Madrid bombings!
So the majority of the Spanish people have decided to live under terrorist tyranny, poor decision, I pity them. But, after all, all of Europe has a track record for turning an appeasing eye at evil. Actually believing they will not be subjected to it in the future. Europeans have extremely poor memories.
They also seem hell bent on trying to recreate the "failed" Soviet system with their race towards Socialism. It took the USSR 70 years to implode, France is close in just over 30 years.
Since hostilities began in Afghanistan, over 600 al Queda leaders have been captured or killed by US Troops and the Pakistani government. We have enough Troops in Afghanistan to finish the job. However, I predict that even when bin laden is captured or killed the terrorism will not stop, and I also predict that you will blame Bush for that too.
How fast would John Kerry turn his tail in the face of adversity? Answer: Moot question: He would still be waiting for the UN to OK our defense of our own country for the last 916 days!
Unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, however, this one was one of our staunchest allies in the world, Spain. As a result of Spain's support of U.S. Iraq policy, combined with our failure to contain Al Queda, thus allowing last week's tragic terrorist attack in Madrid to occur (and admittedly aided by the Spanish government's attempt to cover up Al Queda's involvement in it by trying to blame the Basque seperatist group ETA instead) the Spanish ruling party was swept out of control in yesterday's national elections, in a result that never would have occurred prior to the Madrid Terror attack.
This is simply an unmitigated disaster for world security and order - Arguably as grave for Europe as 9/11 was for us. Al Queda has now demonstrated that they can overthrow a civilized democratic government with terror, and they will undoubtedly be doing more of this. And the Bush administration them the keys to this powerful tool by: A) strongarming the Spanish government into supporting us in Iraq despite the overwhelming opposition of their population, and B)letting Al Queda off the hook in Afghanistan so as to carry out the Iraq War.
Look out. Great Britain's Tony Blair government is likely the next victim for an Al Queda pre-election attack. And then probably us leading up to November.
... very sad. You may like or dislike Bush for various reasons -- but he is not sitting back waiting for more terrorists attack to happen. He is taking the offensive in this war. The simple truth is they want to kill us and destroy our way of life -- you can give up like the Spanish, be intimidated, and let the terrorists win -- or you can make the tough decision to stand and fight. It will take a long time -- but I am confident the American people will not make the same mistake the Spanish peope did.
In fact, my major beef with the Bush administration is that the Iraq war actually had nothing to do with Al Queda, except to assist their recruiting efforts in the Arab world. Iraq DE-FOCUSED us from taking out Al Queda's leadership in Iraq and Pakistan when we had them bottled up there, so that Bush could go after Saddam in a mission that was mostly about controlling oil reserves and contracts, with a dose of personal vendetta thrown in. Saddam had NOTHING to do with Al Queda, who was and no doubt remains the REAL ENEMY we Americans face. There is all kinds of evidence that Saddam and Bin Laden viewed each other as hostile enemies (Bin Laden being a religious zealot, and Hussein a totally secular despot), and they NEVER worked together on anything.
The Iraq war actually served to SQUANDER our best chance at getting Al Queda's leadership, by pulling our best military resources OUT of that front and placing them in Iraq instead.
That is the reason that was given on the tapes for the Madrid bombings!
So the majority of the Spanish people have decided to live under terrorist tyranny, poor decision, I pity them. But, after all, all of Europe has a track record for turning an appeasing eye at evil. Actually believing they will not be subjected to it in the future. Europeans have extremely poor memories.
They also seem hell bent on trying to recreate the "failed" Soviet system with their race towards Socialism. It took the USSR 70 years to implode, France is close in just over 30 years.
Since hostilities began in Afghanistan, over 600 al Queda leaders have been captured or killed by US Troops and the Pakistani government. We have enough Troops in Afghanistan to finish the job. However, I predict that even when bin laden is captured or killed the terrorism will not stop, and I also predict that you will blame Bush for that too.
How fast would John Kerry turn his tail in the face of adversity? Answer: Moot question: He would still be waiting for the UN to OK our defense of our own country for the last 916 days!
Al Queda's hatred of the U.S. stems from long before our Iraq adventure, it is based on what they perceive as our co-opting and corrupting what they viewed as moslem states in the Persian Gulf, chiefly Saudi Arabia and Egypt, but also Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. Al Queda has used our Iraq invasion to effectively foment hatred of the U.S. in the Arab world, and to convince the Arab populace in general that Bush is on an anti-moslem crusade. The Iraqi invasion has completely played into Al Queda's hand, and is the best thing that ever happened to Al Queda.
Oh, and, funny thing about the U.N: The U.N. Sanctions and inspection regime in Iraq ACTUALLY WORKED, and Saddam did in fact dis-arm. The only thing he didn't do was ADMIT he dis-armed, and step away from power. Saddam was no threat to us. The U.N. inspections, had they been allowed to continue, would have proven that, as our OWN search for the Iraqi WMDs subsequently did. It might not be amenable to the macho Texas Cowboy mentality, but in their own deliberate way, the U.N. sanctions actually were effective in making the world safer.
Just because You and Bush and the rest of the right wing choose to call an overthrow of a government we didn't like "National Defense" doesn't make it so. That is simply another Big Lie that Bush has foisted on the American people. It's a shame that you are either too stupid or too gullible to realize it. Either that, or you realize it but are craven enough to agree with our government choosing to disrespect the rights of sovereign nations all over the world. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and chalk it up to simple stupidity on your part, rather than evil intent.
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France has done anything but support the US or Bush, but yet on this same video they are warned! And about of all things the new French law against girls wearing head coverings at public schools!
The problem sdstud is that you are either too stupid or so demented and self loathing that you think anything done under Republican leadership is some kind of a conspiracy or you're on the other side!
Funny how you so quickly forget that regime change was the policy of the Clinton administration in regards to Iraq as well. That after signing on to Bushes war request in the Senate, Hillary, Kerry, et al all made speeches supporting the defeat of Saddam, giving the reasons they came to believe in the Clinton era. That Hillary even went so far as to say that "We know that Saddam has WMD's"!
The UN has a long legacy of turning a blind eye to murdering tyrants, for example Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mihn, Mugabe, Idi Amin and Saddam Hussein and not doing a damn thing while they murder their own people! But yet let a little backwards country like Haiti fall into revolt, and they are all over it. What good is the UN if they stand by blindly as the Sudanese Government endorses genocide of Christians and pagan and condoning slavery and then to add insult to injury, make them the chair of the Human Rights committee? They are a joke, a piss poor joke!
You and apparently the people of Spain don't understand that the Radical Muslim Terrorists have all the excuse they need! While you are working to undermine our government, they are plotting to kill you. Why? Because you are not them! They hate us, they hate France, they hate Germany and they hate Spain because of freedom! They hate freedom and free people.
We lived through 8 years of appeasement in the form of non-retaliation with President Clinton. They saw it as a form of weakness, now that we are hitting back who of all people are against that? Democrats, go figure!
France may not agree on US position on Iraq but they are heavily involved in chasing Al Q. in Afganistan. See todays headline news from comments made by the French General.
On your other diatribe may I remind you that during the 60's etc. the US had a very high standing in the middle east and arab nations in general. Their hate does not come from hating our "freedom". It comes when we support tyrant regimes in Egypt, Arabia, Iraq (80's), at the expense of popular sentiments by the population against their own gov't. Not to mention our unequivocal support of Israel. What the local population sees is the west double standards in its blinded quest for maintaining the status quo at any cost in order to safe guard western interests.
Please do not fool yourself that they hate our freedom. You over simplify issues. What they hate is our double standards, which we are not willing to admit.
Just look at Algeria for example. A decade or so ago with the huge support of US and France democratic elections were held in which the the religious conservative wing won out right. Guess what the incumbant pro-west gov't refused to hand over power with the support of France and US. It led to tremendous blood shed and suffering which still continues to today. This is a clear example where we went against our own values to maintain our interests. This types of dishonest actions takes place in Egypt, Arabia, Morocco, and the middle east.
He simply won't accept the possibility that anything Bush has done could be wrong, or simply for the sake of the oil interests of his benefactors. Don't confuse him with facts when he's on a tirade.
"They hate us for our freedom mantra" is the most disingenious, ignorant, and insincere explanation for a very complex issue of terrorism.
Our own foreign policy and OIL policy in the Middle East is a huge factor, though not the only factor in creating the vile hatred for the US. The US has supported, financed, created, and backed some of the most evil regimes, dictators, and tyrants in the Middle East and around the world since the end of WW2 and its time the people of this country wake up and realize that our past and present policies play a huge role in creating hatred for the US.
Newton's law, "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" doesn't stop or magically disappear when it comes to our foreign policy.
OUR noble and courageous foreign policy defeated the worst tyrants and dictators in Europe and Asia during WW2 which is a fact undeniable and OUR despicable foreign policy also recreated the same evil tyrants and dictators in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world after WW2 which is also a fact undeniable.
Yes, it's unfortunate how gun-ho so many supposed ``patriots'' are in their blind support of our government. Remember all the ridiculous propoganda Bush and colleagues peddled - We are going to save the Iraqi people, blah , blah, blah. Only simple minded people can actually believe this shit. And of course, Bush caters to such.
All that is going on is the same thing that has been going on - Bush et al. want oil and whatever else they can plunder.
In this world of limited resources there will always be the haves and have nots'. When a power such as the US relentlessly takes from so many particular have nots', guess what - they get a bit bent out of shape about it. HELL, YOU GET PISSED WHEN YOUR TAXES ARE RAISED - HOW THE FUCK YOU THINK THEY FEEL.
Of course the Bribite's don't give a shit about how others feel - as long as they are not inconvenienced. And it's not even when they are inconvenienced - hell, today they want to keep Gays from marrying. How does that affect you !!! With such pettiness and disregard for a segment of our people - imagine what goes on throughout the rest of the world to protect US interests.
The French have actually been VERY MUCH our allies in the hunt for Al Queda. It's only in Iraq that France has been in opposition to us - and apparently, with very good reason, given the chaotic mess the place is, and the complete absence of WMDs, or any genuine threat to US except for US forces on the ground in Iraq itself. The French know damn well that Iraq had nothing to do with Al Queda, and that's one reason WHY they opposed it - the other being that France's own version of Halliburton (Schlumberger) had all the oil services contracts with Iraq under Saddam, and they saw it as a grab from a French controlled oil patch to an American one, which it actually was.
Al Queda wants to punish anyone who is working with us in the hunt against them, and who wants to reign in moslem extremism, and that certainly includes France.
If our FBI had paid proper attention to the French intelligence alert on Zaccarias Moussaoui, which they gave us in the summer of 2001, we might well have been able to prevent 9/11.
And, BTW, I have no problem with any President who represents the ideals of the Republican Party - George W. Bush is the furthest thing from that which we have seen. Bill Clinton was in fact much closer to TRUE Republican ideals than Bush II is, as is John McCain. True Republicanism is represented by fiscal responsibility, with spending under control, and a hands-off policy on individual behavior, in addition to strong DEFENSE (as opposed to waging OFFENSIVE war).
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Bribite is right -- the election shows that Spain effectively gave up on fighting terrorism. Even before the Madrid tragedy, the Spanish people opposed the Iraq war, believing that Saddam had nothing to do with Al Queda. However, there is now evidence that Al Queda was behind the bombings, the purpose of which was retaliation for Spain’s support of the war. Therefore, the Iraq war at the very least hurt Al Queda in an indirect way, and probably more than that. Why else would Al Queda conduct such a bloody act just days before an election, in an attempt to influence that election? Clearly, they were interested in ousting the government that supported Bush and helped oust the former Iraqi regime.
But even if Spanish voters didn’t support the Iraq war, but were at least supportive of the broader war on terrorism, they should have continued to back the ruling Popular Party once evidence of Al Queda’s connection to the bombings came out. However, the voters instead rejected the Popular Party. Why did they punish the Popular Party for the bombings -- which were connected to Al Queda -- if the Popular Party supported a war they believed had NOTHING to do with Al Queda? Answer: Spanish voters are not merely against the Iraq war, but opposed to the war on terrorism in general. Spain said after the bombings, "No More!" Because they didn’t have the stomach to fight the war on terrorism -- not just the Iraq war -- they opted out of the fight.
This result, unfortunately, will encourage future terrorist attacks in other countries, including the US. After all, if one attack before an election caused the downfall of a strong anti-terrorist government, why not try it somewhere else?
Spain can no longer claim this was their "9/11." 9/11 was about standing up in the face of terrorism. Spain has chosen to cower instead, hoping the terrorist threat will pass from them onto someone else. This election gave Al Queda exactly what it was hoping for. If I were in Spain, I wouldn’t take comfort in that at all.
What is the evidence that you have that Saddam had ANYTHING to do with Al Queda? There isn't any, and there are all kinds of communications that prove the contrary.
The fact is, Al Queda had all the motivation that they needed to go after Spain, simply because Spain was supporting the U.S. Now, Al Queda have shown that they could sow fear and overthrow a government simply for supporting the U.S. They got more bang for their buck in THIS attack, and the damage it will cause to our interests and the interests of the rest of the civilized world, than they did in anything since 9/11. They didn't NEED any connection between Saddam and their organization to accomplish this. All they needed was a connection between the Spanish regime that they helped to defeat and the U.S., and that certainly was there. I guarantee you that this terror attack will also influence EVERY other election this year in Europe.
If you think the Spanish are giving up- then you need to get out the old history books again. They were fighting the "terror war " when we were still into disco.
What they seem to object to is being lied to and being manipulated for polititcal ends- something many publics do.
When you see ETA in charge of a new basque state- then you can say Spain gave up its terror war...
what they seem to object to is being lied to and manipulated , like most publics do !
well put and believe we will see the same results come november
heres my hope it doesnt happen the same way it happened in spain !........and please sit there with a straight face and say thier election wasnt going to happen that way anyways, it was a landslide in the other direction b4 the bombings.......this isnt good , the camel humping religous fanatics are drinking and toasting to a major victory......there goes the neighborhood
Could you explain to us what the heck to you mean by "they want to ... destroy our way of life????" Al-Qada, or Iraqi polic is about to come to the U.S. and take over our government?
What the heck are you talking about? They want us to change our policy in the Middle East, only a complete moron thinks they are coming here to take over our country.
The horrific terrorist attacks in Madrid have had almost non-stop coverage on the news channels here in the UK since last Thursday morning. I agree, sdstud, it is very grave for Europe and particularly those countries, like Spain and the UK, which have supported the US 'war on terrorism' so strongly.
However, I disagree that (assuming Al Queda are responsible), that Al Queda could be said to have overthrown a government. From the many hours I’ve spent watching news channels and reading newspapers over the last few days, I believe the Spanish electorate voted against the Popular Party because they think they were being lied to, as well as the fact that 90% of the Spanish population did not support the Iraq war but their elected government choose to send Spanish troops in.
Add to that, that the ruling party could be accused of using the attacks to further demonise ETA, completely discounting the idea that Al Queda may have been involved, totally for political ends and then if the electorate believe that then how could they vote for a party which would use such a murderous attack on civilians for political ends?
As for an attack on London, I’m very surprised it’s not happened yet. Our tube (underground system) is such an easy target with so many potential casualties. I firmly believe it’s a case of ‘when’ and not ‘if’ as far as London is concerned.
I said that it was the combination of Al Queda's horrific act, and the Spanish ruling party's: A) kowtowing to the pressure of the U.S. leadership on Iraq, rather than respecting the will of it's own populace, and B) trying to cover up the Al Queda involvement and blame ETA for the attack even as the evidence made it clear it was an Al Queda operation.
But it IS a fact that the exact same scenario exists in the UK as existed in Spain. And I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Al Queda attacks right before the next British Election and then the IRA/Sinn Fein will be the first group scapegoated.
-- Modified on 3/15/2004 11:57:14 AM
"However, I disagree that (assuming Al Queda are responsible), that Al Queda could be said to have overthrown a government. From the many hours I’ve spent watching news channels and reading newspapers over the last few days, I believe the Spanish electorate voted against the Popular Party because they think they were being lied to, as well as the fact that 90% of the Spanish population did not support the Iraq war but their elected government choose to send Spanish troops in."
I have to disagree with your disagreement. Polls prior to the bombing showed Aznar's party with a comfortable lead. The massive shift among the voters in the 3 days after was catalyzed by the bombing itself and the Government's emotional, ill-thought reaction to it. Aznar had reason to suspect ETA: they had been growing more violent even as the number of their attacks had decreased. Indeed, on Christmas Eve they were caught trying to smuggle a 500kg bomb into Madrid *for an attack on a train station*. The government's mistake was an initial, emotional reaction that it *had* to be ETA. Don't forget that they rapidly moderated and then corrected their opinions as the days passed. The leader of the opposition shamlessly, but successfully, exploited popular rage over the massacre and melded it with opposition to Spanish participation in Iraq and Afghanistan. I sympathise deeply with the Spanish people, as any decent person should, but I think they voted with anger, not reason.
None of this would have been possible without the bombing, given the lead held by the Spanish conservatives. It may be indirect, but I think al Qaeda can definitely lay claim to overthrowing a government. And, from what I've heard of the new PM's views, al Qaeda is getting almost exactly what they want.
(BTW, it's not at all unlikely that ETA and al Qaeda cooperated. Terror groups often do, regardless of ideology.)
"As for an attack on London, I’m very surprised it’s not happened yet. Our tube (underground system) is such an easy target with so many potential casualties. I firmly believe it’s a case of ‘when’ and not ‘if’ as far as London is concerned."
I agree completely. There are so many potential targets everywhere that another incident is almost inevitable, and modern technology makes very easy for a small group to kill many, many people.
--b.
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The fact that this attack was carried out with such precision, capacity and timing is unbelievable. A point escaping a lot of people is that this bombing was so politically sophisticated. The knew Aznar would try to blame ETA and knew the public would revolt against politicising such a tragedy. That they could carry out such a huge attack without any intelligence service in the world having a clue about it is more troubling than the act itself. It just shows al-queda has metamorphosed, dispersed, and adapted.
The goal of this attack is to create a rallying cry again in Europe to turn public sentiment against the US, and it worked in Spain perfectly. Zapatero has already said he will pull Spanish troops from Iraq, though that may just be victory talk rather than firm policy. The funny thing is that this Socialist leader will have more credibility on European public arena now than even Blair.
Sad, just plain sad!!
Some of you people really amaze me. You speak of these thug murderers as if they are super human intellectuals.
They kill people. They shock people with their unmatched brutality. They perpetuate the belief that by doing so is the best and quickest way to Gods good graces.
I don’t find it unbelievable that they can carry this kind of thing out under the nose of any intelligence service. Seems pretty simple to me….. get some explosives together and go where there are allot of people. In case you haven’t noticed there are hundreds of thousands of places like that all over the world. If they want to hit Spain, The U.K., Poland, Australia, France, or whoever, they can and will. What makes you think they’re so damn sophisticated. It`s a simple thing really. The world is to big a place to guard. Plain and simple.
The best we can hope for in this country is for the left to realize the danger we`re in and begin to work with us and not against us.
If we had kept after Al Queda, who was the REAL enemy, we would probably have caught Bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahari (who is the operational head of Al Queda) by now. Those two guys probably thank Allah 6 times every day while facing Mecca, that Bush invaded Iraq, instead of continuing to hunt them down at our highest priority for the past 12-15 months.
And, BTW, you are right about the relative sophistication needed to kill lots of innocent people in a free society. I believe that the only way to fight this type of terror is to resolutely go about living our lives in freedom, making occassional pragmatic concessions to security like placing metal detectors and bomb sniffers in places of public accommodation, while at the same time, doing EVERYTHING plausible to catch people who perpetrate these acts, and then when you DO catch them, you humiliate them and execute them in the manner which most seriously strikes at their core belief structures. For example, with Moslem fanatics who actually commit these crimes, you capture them, and after you wring out all the intelligence you can through torture, then you execute them in public and then publically chop their remains up and feed them to pigs. When they are dead, disembodied pig shit, they will not be much use for the 76 virgins awaiting them on the other side.
But what you DO NOT DO, is you don't falsely claim that your non-terrorist enemies and other run of the mill criminals are actually terrorists, and you don't falsely demonize them. You save the special terrorist treatment for the people who actually committed terrorist acts against US.
-- Modified on 3/15/2004 2:24:55 PM
fact is these religous fanatics are not sane and to try and rationalize thier actions is im- possible. what is trully sad , is they will consider this a major victory !
like even someone said , as long as we are sticking our nose where it dont belong,under false pretenses, that even after osama is killed and sugging dick in hell (if u believe in that), the fanatitism of religion shall continue.
whats really sad is how some people wil defend thier parties president or presidents nomination to the death w/o being able to look at a realistic pic. of the actions and results of said person...come novemeber thier will be a new "bush" provider and i can name a few hobbiest with drool on thier chin
By insisting that they are less than bright, they are very evil for sure, but they also show great discipline and cunning. Anyone who can set up synchronized explosions that are timed to all happen at a single point are reasonably bright. Also, figuring out how to get the explosives on trains and which trains to plant them on required some good surveillance techniques. According to one report that I read, the only thing that prevented the bombers from devastating their intended target (a station that served a large complex of government ministries) was that one or more of the trains was(were) 2 minutes late. The best way to fight these people is to be as committed as they are and apply a hellbent, relentless pressure on them that nothing will deter us from.
-- Modified on 3/15/2004 4:36:15 PM
I lived in Spain for 2 years in sevice for our uncle Sam, the base was closed after I left even though there was 25 percent unemployment before they closed the base, and the base was a huge contributer to the local economy. The basque terrorist group has been bombing in Madrid and all through spain for decades, which is much longer than G.W. has been in office. They basically hate Americans (the majority of them, not all of course). Any excuse to kill is good enough for them. Spain has a long way to go to get itself out of the dark ages, much the same as many of the other countries worldwide that are a costant thorn in the USA's side.
Those astute history students will remember that Al Qaeda was begat from the mujahideen in Afghanistan, which was bankrolled in large part by our government and the CIA in the 1980s. There are too many questions regarding the business dealings of the Bushes and bin Ladens over the years. Have you ever noticed, pretty much anywhere in the world you find oil, you'll find Islamic fundamentalists, if not immediately then shortly thereafter? They've been our boys all along, but you need to connect a few dots and understand history to get it. Let me put it this way, tough to have a war without an enemy.
The first government Al Qaeda overthrew was Russia when they beat them in Afghanistan in the early '80s and helped force them into being overthrown by our own CIA. The next one was the USA on 9/11/2001. The offical version of what went down is, in the words of my occasional drinking buddy Mohammed Saeed al-Shahaf, too far from reality. Since then we have used these stupid color coded alerts to keep the American public, who are too stupid and complacent to know better or to ask the right questions (like if UA 83 really crashed, why did it leave a debris trail 8 miles in diameter, like it had been shot down), into fear and submission. You might want to ask yourself how George Tenet could keep his job after so many blatant intelligence failures and blunders. The frightening thing is that we probably knew the bombing in Madrid was going down, but miscalculated the response of the Spanish people. Fooling the Spaniards is a different proposition than fooling the folks back in Deliveranceville, Georgia.
The Iraq invasion was simply a con job perpretated upon the American people. The only real winners there are Dyncorp, Halliburton, Big Oil and the rest of the military/industrial complex. What's happenening here in America is that the corporations and hard right are using the terrorist threat (which is more or less solely our doing) as an excuse to lock down this country and take away our civil rights. In short, go back to the good old days of the 9th Century where you were either a lord or a serf. W is doing a fine job of this, but I think even among the billionaires he's made enemies. When Bill O'Reilly, Rupert's boy, starts busting on Witless, you know it's over for him. Kerry ain't that much better, but he's going to pick Edwards, Graham or even Clark as his running mate and it will be all over.
Blair can call an election at any time but is not forced to until 2006, I believe.
The neocons are desperate and will undoubtedly try another dirty trick to maintain power. But I feel pretty good about it not working. Too many people with power want them gone.