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Politics and Religion

Well, wise ass, you would not have to ask that qustion
MarkusKetterman 150 Reviews 3539 reads
posted

if you read my post. But since you may have read over it quickly, or perhaps today the reading comprehension fails you:

Namaste - from the Sanskrit - literally means nothing more than "I bow to you" or "I greet you".

In Hindu usage, it means roughly "I see (recognize, honor) the light in you that I see in me" or "I see (recognize, honor) the divine in you that I see in me".  Or you may play with this to mean "the light / divine in me sees / honors the light / divine in you.

The term recognizes, as stated in my post, the divine nature in all persons.

Don't bother to debate me on the meaning - I've studied Bakti Yoga in India.

In our case perhaps it means "the wise ass in me recognizes the wise ass in you.....



-- Modified on 12/18/2008 5:18:44 PM

MarkusKetterman6538 reads

Right then. Some gentle Christian soul wanted to "bitch slap" me for my post but was afraid to do so on a moderated board. Afraid to own his/her opinion as well I suspect as was hiding behind an alias.

By the way - if you respond under an alias I will not read your post. If it makes you feel good to vent be my guest. But if you want to engage me in any way you've got to come out of the closet to do it.

Any post that is just plain rant and garbage is worth bugger-all to me and will likewise be ignored.

So my Christmas gift to you all - the opportunity to have at me and my post to your hearts content.

I am quoting the substance here with a few added comments - my Apologia. A term which should be familiar to those Christians who know the history of their religion.

*** The only thing I regret about this post was the choice of title. I think that set the stage for the visceral reaction I got. It was intended as pointed criticism but with humor. But I can honestly see how it could have been read as confrontational. I note, however, that nobody gave me the benefit of the doubt here.....


In the spirit of the holiday - why Christmas sucks......

Posted by gregory12 , 12/16/2008 4:15:47 PM   [gregory12 has 25 reviews]

- Christian churches have horned in on it by appropriating the day to mark the birth of a quasi historical character whose date of birth is unknown. Thus obscuring the millennia old tradition of observing the Yule Solstice with feasting, drunkenness, group sex and other more interesting diversions

*** simple historical fact as readily understood within the scholarly community. If you don't like Jesus being referred to as quasi-historical, that's a shame. But this is how he is seen in scholarly circles. Frankly, I believe in Jesus. His taught people to experience God in nature, every day life, and in their own experiences. Same way a pagan approaches things....

- Retailers feed the compulsion to sooth the ego and make up for failings in relationships and families by buying and gifting and running up credit card debt or wasting money better allocated to more common sense usages. Not my problem really but I find it tres gauche.

*** an opinion apparently shared by many, sincere Christians especially included, as I hear it expressed time and time again and have so for years.

- the whole Santa Claus shtick is wonderfully tacky and is open to many delightful interpretations but some uptight idiots consider it religious and don't want their kids exposed to it. And some pointy headed christian zealots oppose it because it is *not* religious. Go figure.

*** don't you really get tired of folks making a crisis out of Santa Claus? either the poor old sod is too religious or not religious enough. Why not just let it be for the kiddies to enjoy?

- folks come out of the woodwork to make sure the poor are fed and the kiddies have toys - for one f@cking day of the year. Ok, two if you throw in Thanksgiving. The other 363 they're just bloody f@ck out of luck. Guess they'd better eat hearty....

*** sorry if you don't like the opinion but it has been my experience. And has been attested to by the charitable institutions I have been involved with as well as statistical data on charitable giving. This is not to say that some Christians and others do not give year round. Of course they do. But the point remains valid.

- there's just too much damn traffic. And Goddess help you if you *have* to go to a store. Why don't they all just *go home*!

*** well of course. I'm sure you've felt the same way trying to get about in the holiday season. Where is h8traffic when I need him ';-)

- and if you have to go to a store you have to listen to vapid elevator music versions of Christmas Carols. Some of which would be fine if decently performed, as they are talking about incarnation, a phenomenon not properly attributed however to any one figure but rather, common to all mankind. Namaste.

*** Christmas hymns are usually on the topic of Incarnation, which within Christianity is seen as God becoming a specific man in the person of Jesus. However, Christianity is a minority religion. The majority religions by numbers of adherents hold that incarnation is a property of all persons and can be experienced in differing ways. Buddhists and Hindus that I know love Christmas hymns that celebrate incarnation. So do I and many other pagans. However the elevator music variety are an insult to the genre.....

- the demands of the holiday are not entirely inescapable, and will impinge to a degree with my sporting life. What is a bon roué to do?

*** a statement intended to be taken as humor. But really - who of you can say that the demands and expectations of the holiday season are not going to inconvenience you or limit your choices?

I just know I'll think of more reasons after I close this post. Hopefully others will pitch in.

*** well, all I got was a load of vitriol. And I discovered that there are apparently quite a lot of folks on this *adult sex board* who consider themselves to be Christian, and are precious enough about it to get in high dudgeon over my post. I wonder at this, as my understanding of the religion is that it is not compatible with this lifestyle. But this of course is between those here who consider themselves Christian and their own consciences.

lastly - I got well brassed off and became a bit ratty as the criticisms mounted. Fed the fire as it were. I'm only human. I suspect everyone here has done the same. But I recognize the divine in all persons and so I leave you with this:

Peace
Namaste
A Blessed Solstice
Merry Christmas
Happy Hanukkah
and, not to offend
__________________________(fill in the blank)


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Blackbeltxxx1743 reads

And I will raise up my festivus pole to all the ladies.

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MarkusKetterman2545 reads

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KingoftheCounty1437 reads

Gotta love Seinfeld.

I shared my thoughts on the GD board and won't go into as much detail here. The biggest thing that bothers me is what I perceive as a "superior" attitude that I often find in pagans and others of different religions. It is as if many "learned" folk just cannot understand how people can "fall" for the Christian religion. I do not pretend to have all the answers or to know for sure if I am right or wrong, but frankly neither does anyone else.

As one of the Christians working to reconcile my beliefs with my hobby, I will readily (and unfortunately) agree with the vast majority of what you wrote about what Christmas has become. Your additional comments actually clarified things a great deal for me and would have, I think, lessened the vitriol a little...okay, maybe not.

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charlie4451636 reads

You have my sympathy.

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KingoftheCounty1917 reads

I believe this is the first post of yours that I have read where you did not write, "There is no god".

The beginnings of a conversion, maybe?

Seriously, no sympathy requested or required. We all have our crosses to bear, so to speak (write).

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charlie4452642 reads

The phrase "there is no god" might be too raw for the more hypocritical TER posters.

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KingoftheCounty1668 reads

Will the elimination of derogatory terms like hypocritical be part of the "retooling"? That might at least take your rhetoric from raw to rare.

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MarkusKetterman1753 reads

Well - I feel no superiority. I do see myself as living in accord with my religion and values - perhaps this statement strikes you as being "superior". But as a pagan (an individual not to be lumped in with all others) I recognize the divine in all persons. I did get pretty disrespectful as the responses to me became, to my mind, more unreasonable and judgmental. I do wonder at the phenomenon of one who is not following the dictates of their religion *judging* someone who is....

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KingoftheCounty1775 reads

I read my post again and cannot find the judgment in it. Maybe you were not referring to me specifically. Anyway, I purposefully did not list you specifically as "superior" as nothing in this post strikes me as such. I do have acquaintances that feel that way and the questions/comments/facial expressions/tsk tsk kind of interactions give it away.

Even so, I have enough to worry about without judging another's decisions when it comes to religious preferences. I enjoy discussing them at times, but to each his/her own.

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MarkusKetterman2152 reads

Notice the reaction I received in these instances after my post: you would need to follow the conversations to see the context and the reaction....

http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=283985&boardID=12&page=1

http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=283778&boardID=12&page=2

I don't recall seeing anyone treated similarly on GD board before (I've been "here" since April)....

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charlie4451393 reads

I will do a 12 hour session with 12 providers for my "feat of strength"

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charlie4452486 reads

The rest of you can have my sympathy because there is no god.

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MarkusKetterman2027 reads

yes, in the past and for some in the present, the God(dess) is personified in a anthropological manner. However, the principle is that the divine is coterminous with nature, including all human beings. So we do not believe in a man in the sky, and thank God(dess), we are not afflicted with the Incompetent Architect theory of morality - which holds that God made us to be one way but we are in reality another and thus in tension with his purposes and cut off from divine life. That would be a miserable way to view ones self and the world about.

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charlie4451913 reads

G12, thought is more or less a human process so the big question is which came first, human thought or god. I say human thought came first then came god and goddess. Therein lies the conflict, Some humans think the opposite.

I think human thought created the concept of gods and that any power that a god may have is bestowed on it by the humans that support that particular concept. I support no concept of god or goddess, so for me there is no god. Now if a goddess were to show up , she might be willing to help me with a "feat of strength" similar to the one that I mentioned in an earlier post.

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MarkusKetterman1679 reads

and yes, early pagans (along with all other religions) created gods / goddesses in their own images, and gave them personalities and attributes, to explain natural phenomena. Pagans generally celebrate these ancient deities but usually do not *literally* believe in them.

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charlie4452710 reads

So then you believe that there is a supreme existence that pervades the universe and takes a special interest in human beings? If so , how did this belief come to you? How do you interact with this existence?

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MarkusKetterman2307 reads

and that won't work.

Pagans hold a wide scope of views. But in common - we believe that nature is divine. And that we are meant to live as nature intended and equipped us to do - or as you might say, as we evolved.  I do not really look for "personal" gods and goddesses who may be objectified, defined, systematically theologized and interacted with. No "supreme existence" in Paganism. No monotheism. Rather pan-entheism.  Speaking for myself of course as within the generic label "paganism" there are actually quite a few different belief systems.

One thing largely in common - we refer to God(dess) a contraction that means God and Goddess. We see in nature male and female principles. And we celebrate these, consecrate these potentialities, with sex. That would make for a fun church service, what?





-- Modified on 12/18/2008 3:25:21 PM

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charlie4452470 reads

That sounds a bit close to being Christian to me. But not quite.

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MarkusKetterman1853 reads

the idea that a supreme being made mankind in a way that does not suit him/her/it. Therefor mankind is in dissonance with the divine (sin).

Paganism, along with the non-monotheistic religions, holds that mankind is in consonance with the divine. Experiences the divine. Is an integral part of the divine.

Christianity is hostile to "what comes naturally" - sets up dissonance within the person, whose drives and desires are in conflict with the "rules".

Pagan ethics derive from one principle:

if it does harm to no one, do as you will

Like the rest of the monotheistic religions, Christianity is burdened with laws / rules / regulations.


As with the eastern religions, pagan ethics are guided by principles not rules.

Pagans generally believe in the "law of return" or the "law of threefold return" which might simply be described as "Karma" - that "what goes 'round comes 'round" as it were.

Whereas Christians give themselves a free pass - just believe right and you're off the hook.

Many more contrasts. Christians find us to be entirely and unsatisfactorily dissimilar to themselves!

Cheers

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charlie4452267 reads

The divine? Human thought, and the ability to share, communicate and preserve ideas is the essence of divinity. All of what humans know is the sum of all human thought. God is the product of human thought.
To be in harmony with the Universe through thought would seem a cumbersome way to experience a divine existence. And to experience divine existence through a a body of knowledge allegedly created by humans under the guidance of a human representative of a deity is incongruous.
So, in a physical sense,  there is no god.

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MarkusKetterman1595 reads

Consciousness is the seat of the divine. Perhaps coterminous with the divine. Perhaps ontologically identical to the divine. Not basic animal level consciousness and not the consciousness that humans typically employ negotiating in every day life, but rather a phenomenon that requires certain a certain focus or discipline to become in touch with and to develop. The tool I prefer for this task is Bakti Yoga. Even though its associated world view is in contradiction in some ways to my natural paganism.

An anthropomorphic, externalized, personalized deity who exists in disconnect with humanity / consciousness is unique to the monotheistic religions.

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charlie4451869 reads

Consciousness is a mental  state that allows those that possess it to be aware of their existence in the universe and to the enlightened, aware of all that the universe is. For me this is enough. And I know that there is no god.


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marikod2341 reads


What is divinity if it can come
Only in silent shadows and in dreams?
Shall she not find in comforts of the sun,
In pungent fruit and bright, green wings, or else
In any balm or beauty of the earth,
Things to be cherished like the thought of heaven?

Divinity must live within herself:
Passions of rain, or moods in falling snow;
Grievings in loneliness, or unsubdued
Elations when the forest blooms; gusty
Emotions on wet roads on autumn nights;

All pleasures and all pains, remembering
The bough of summer and the winter branch.
These are the measures destined for her soul.

From "Sunday Morning" by Wallace Stevens, perhaps the most eloquent comparison of Christianity and of paganism by a woman searching for spirital fulfillment.

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MarkusKetterman2005 reads

is a fundamental difference. Most forms of Christianity hold that man can know nothing of the divine except as it is revealed to him by God through the instrument of a faith tradition.

whereas paganism along with the eastern religions holds that divinity is  experienced and realized in many ways including purposeful seeking as well as intuitive leaps and realizations.

Poetry has long been a method of "sideways thinking" - or "metanoia" (the word erroneously translated "repentance" / which really means a shift in the paradigm of thought, in the Koine greek new testament)

Your offering is very evocative of the earthiness of the divine experience.

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charlie4451636 reads

This poem was written by a man who believed in god for people who share his belief. In a godless context these words make no sense.

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marikod2366 reads

While Wallace Stevens is one of the most difficult poets to understand, I've always read the poem as an intellectual argument carried on in the mind of a woman on Sunday morning, as she has coffee and oranges in her peignor,as to whether Christian divinity is  a myth and whether she can obtain spirtual satisfaction by appreciating and experiencing pure earthly pleasures.

If divinity can come only in shadows and dreams, as the poem says,
for all practical purposes it is not real. She concludes that she must divinity in herself through experiencing the beauties of nature. So I do sehe the poem as a celebration of paganism.

Ironically Stevens was a Christian in his youth and became an aethist in his old age. Just the opposite of Elliott who died a Christian after exploring Eastern religions in his youth.

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SinsOfTheFlesh2099 reads

But I agree in spirit with you. I used to enjoy Christmas even though I do not consider myself a Christian, but as the years go by, I have come to view Christmas as the mother of all inconveniences and annoyances. I have become a Scrooge.

Here is an anecdotal example of why. My two favorite radio stations here in KC have now started running 24/7 non-stop Christmas music starting - wait for this - on NOVEMBER FIRST, and running all the way through January 1.....TWO SOLID MONTHS, 1/6 of the year, dedicated solely to Christmas music. Why have both radio stations decided to devote two solid months to manic merriment? Last year, one station began their holiday programming on Thanksgiving Day. The other station started on Nov 1. Christians groups here in KC got up in arms about the radio station who started later, threatening to boycott businesses who advertised on their station. The radio station apologized for not getting into the Christmas spirit fast enough, and TA-DA!!! This year their Holiday Hysteria began simultaneously with their rival station.

What in the HELL have we come to? Christmas is now the most "maniacal" time of the year complete with trampled retail workers, and threatened businesses. To hell with it all. January 2 is now the most blessed day of the year, when I can at last breath a sigh of relief that the hysteria has passed for another 10 months.

BAH HUMBUG!

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KingoftheCounty3278 reads

has definitely gotten out of hand to me. I actually like the music, but not two-month's worth of it.

Unfortunately, others must like it a lot, because radio stations (in my neck of the woods at least) report large increases in listenership (and thus ad revenue) when they go to Christmas music. And unless it is a targeted "Christian" station, revenue is the "reason for the season" and why they go to Christmas music when they do.

I am afraid that until they find the tipping point where people get so tired of it that they stop listening, the "Christmas season" will get longer and longer on the air.

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kerrakles2240 reads

Merry Christmas

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MarkusKetterman3540 reads

if you read my post. But since you may have read over it quickly, or perhaps today the reading comprehension fails you:

Namaste - from the Sanskrit - literally means nothing more than "I bow to you" or "I greet you".

In Hindu usage, it means roughly "I see (recognize, honor) the light in you that I see in me" or "I see (recognize, honor) the divine in you that I see in me".  Or you may play with this to mean "the light / divine in me sees / honors the light / divine in you.

The term recognizes, as stated in my post, the divine nature in all persons.

Don't bother to debate me on the meaning - I've studied Bakti Yoga in India.

In our case perhaps it means "the wise ass in me recognizes the wise ass in you.....



-- Modified on 12/18/2008 5:18:44 PM

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marikod2805 reads

a special word to me that I exclude from my usual array of smart ass remarks.

       We had quite a discussion on the Vegas Board in May as to the proper translation of this word. Ms. Nikki Avalon gave the best translation I have seen which I have reproduced below:  

by Anja Heij. "I honor the place in you in which the entire universe dwells. I honor the place in you which is of Love, of Truth, of Light, and of Peace. When you are in that place in you and I am in that place in me, We are One."

Traditionally Namaste is said while bringing together both palms of the hands before the heart in prayer position, and lightly bowing the head and shoulders. Herewith you surrender your ego, show that your hands are unarmed, and that you come in peace. The hands folded in prayer position also symbolize celebration and honor. The left and right hand brought together depict Union and centeredness.

In Namaste you pay honor to the sacredness of all. In this holiness you become still for a moment. While meeting the other one on the level of the heart and soul, the separation between you and me crumbles into pieces; no longer is there another one – there is only One.

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MarkusKetterman1807 reads

but rather a description of the usage - an explication of the thought process that the word was intended to convey, on the part of a person or faith community.

I am familiar of course with the folding of hands, the level of their positioning relating your self to the person or deity being greeted, so that traditionally one would greet a higher deity with the hands folded clearly above the crown of the head.  

However, please note that the Sanskrit word, as best as scholarship can tell, means no more than I greet you or I bow to you.

The lovely "translation" you provided is a creation of a faith community - an assigning of meaning to the word and its usage.

Such usages differ even within Hindu understanding and the various yogic communities who use the word. As all word useages differ in the mind of each person who uses them.

The conceptualization of sacred space within and between is difficult to put in words. I am glad that you have found a formula that speaks to you at that level. I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate both the eloquence and the sentiment of your favored translation of Namaste.

Now if we, you and I, and everyone who lives, would only enter and center and dwell in that sacred space more and more, until it is all that remains.




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marikod1470 reads

Nikki described it as a "translation" in her post so I kept this usage.

All credit goes to her for a deeper knowledge about this word than I had at time. The entire post can be found on the Vegas Board on May 24, 2008. Selena Scott also offered an interpetation of value.

My first experience with the word was from my Yoga teacher back in the mid 70s who would arise from a relaxed asana and greet the class by saying "Namaste." For many years, I was never sure what she meant.

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ego_check2005 reads

faith. How sad to see you two pathetic morons together.
It is just a matter of time before you two get together for a session.
Don't worry gregory, we all know you will be the pitcher.
To keep this on topic, GOD BLESS both of you.  

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MarkusKetterman2431 reads

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marikod2719 reads

your flaming skills are kind of wimpy. In fact, I’m a little embarrassed to be flamed by you. I strongly suggest that you work on your flaming skills.


          Paying attention to the post is always a good way to start. For example, we weren’t debating faith at all but the meaning of a particular word.

      You could learn from Haya1300 who nearly went ballistic last night when I suggested he get the facts before he accused that lady of extortion. He got so mad at me that his scorched earth flame boiled over with obscenities about every three sentences. Now that was a big time flame. So I want you to study his post and see if you can do better next time.

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MarkusKetterman1838 reads

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ego_check3208 reads

marikod. It is impossible to read all of the mindless banter between you two. If my summary was incomplete, then so be it.
As far as Haya1300 calling you out, he pretty much summed up what any real hobbyist already knows about you. That was not a flame. That was a factual assessment about you.  
My only question is that I believe you are a provider, not a hobbyist. Perhaps the White Knight label that you so proudly bear is inaccurate.
I guess I will just have to wait for gregory's review.

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MarkusKetterman2096 reads

and from now on will totally ignore any post under your alias. You are a total waste of time. Write anything you want - what good will it do if nobody takes you seriously? Chivvy on now like a nice little laddie and have a nice toss.

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ego_check1454 reads

Nor do I need it.
Don't whine about my alias. It has been around a lot longer then you have.

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MarkusKetterman2863 reads

that you are a worthless spineless gutless piece of crap. That you take up perfectly good bandwidth better devoted to another. You are probably a 12 year old boy in shorts with bottle thick glasses strapped to his head, pulling your pud. Sod off.

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ego_check1704 reads

You really do not know how much laughter you have given me lately. I suppose I should thank you for that.
You remind me of Dr. Zachary Smith from the old Lost in Space episodes.
Indeed, accent and all. LOL.

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marikod2621 reads

I've decided to give you a "4" for your flame -Okay if you are drunk- primarily because you completely missed the topic.


Gregory, however, is a much harder reviewer than I so I can't guarantee thqt he will not go lower.

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ego_check1753 reads

What do you know about posting reviews?
You don't post reviews because you are a woman.
Gregory took my advice and has been silent.
Perhaps you should follow his lead, and run along, like a good little girl.

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