TER General Board

This is going to sound cliche' but Nice guys finish last.
some-guy 6 Reviews 889 reads
posted

A lot of times women will give off the vibe that they want a romantic guy to sweep them off their feet ... write them pretty love songs, buy they flowers and basically give them the world.  

When, in reality, if you were to actually behave like guys do in romantic comedies or novels ... you're more likely to find yourself with a restraining order than you are to win her heart. :-) Women will say they want that stuff, but once you provide them with the "romantic boyfriend experience," they have this way of bolting for the door once they get it. The whole "romance" thing gets minsinterperated as "needy," "clingy," "doesn't have a spine," or insert whatever other adjective that applies.

And that might just be natural with both sexes? Maybe there is a part of us that just loves a challenge. And when it comes to landing a mate, we want to feel like we've scored some sort of moral victory? Like a romantic "notch in the bedpost" if you will? And someone who is just too easy or or available emotionally -- where's the challenge in that?

Unfortunately, with women, I don't know if this is very healthy. What winds up happening is they seek out men who are just emotionally aloof or unavailable. Hence why you'll hear a lot of single guys say "women only want to date jerks." And yes, I understand that is an over-used cliche' but there is an element of truth to it. Otherwise, you wouldn't hear so many guys say it so often. So the quintessential "nice guy," in order to adapt and find a mate ... starts taking notes on what the successful guys are doing ... and unfortunately, that often means being more aloof, selfish, unpredictable, etc. because those are what we observe to be the "successful traits" in our peers when it comes to landing a desirable female. So we emulate it in hopes of achieving similar success.

This is a VERY GENERALIZED statement, mind you. I'm painting with very broad brush strokes, so take this with a grain of salt.
Posted By: hbyist+truth=;(
..."But to be perfectly honest, most of the women I've dated have kind of killed off that part of me, little by little"...  
   
 What did they do? I am not asking this to attack you, I am really interested in what women have done from your perspective.
-- Modified on 9/29/2015 9:24:40 AM

BlondeRoots2152 reads

I found a website that's a little disturbing.  It seems that most doods hate being married or are thrilled to divorced.

My question is:  In the 21st century, are most people who are married miserable, and what can be done to change this?  

With the current 50+ % divorce rate, were marriages better off in the pre-1950s when man and woman fulfilled traditional roles and needed eachother?  Did the feminist movement create independent, lazy, and/or entitled women who don't really need, care or respect their husbands?  Do women exploit the divorce laws which are in their favor?  What is making modern marriage so craptastic and what's the solution

2x4844 reads

Other than accepting that some relationships can be good AND meant to end. Do some people stay together forever? Of course. But if people allowed themselves to have actual relationships instead of chaining themselves to someone for better or worse, then maybe everyone wouldn't end up so bitter about it in the end if it didn't. Cause it's never been likely, and it's just human nature.

Think about it, pretty much the last time people were "happy" being married their whole life was when they died at 30. Divorce and marital misery aren't as new as we would be led to believe and it doesn't bother or surprise me at all. Shit happens, and when two people are done they're done.  

Now, as far as dudes being especially upset about it, I think it has more to do with the way we raise them as a society than anything a woman could possibly do later on. But that is another fucked up story for another day.

Bob.Sugar746 reads

I guess you must be older than Methuselah since YOU know that marriage has ALWAYS been craptastic.

But you're just a young kid...who clearly babbles more BS than most here.

Try sticking a tail on yourself for your next photoshoot.  And stick an apple in your mouth as well.

Posted By: 2x4
Other than accepting that some relationships can be good AND meant to end. Do some people stay together forever? Of course. But if people allowed themselves to have actual relationships instead of chaining themselves to someone for better or worse, then maybe everyone wouldn't end up so bitter about it in the end if it didn't. Cause it's never been likely, and it's just human nature.  
   
 Think about it, pretty much the last time people were "happy" being married their whole life was when they died at 30. Divorce and marital misery aren't as new as we would be led to believe and it doesn't bother or surprise me at all. Shit happens, and when two people are done they're done.  
   
 Now, as far as dudes being especially upset about it, I think it has more to do with the way we raise them as a society than anything a woman could possibly do later on. But that is another fucked up story for another day.

2x4824 reads

Fuckin Starbucks. Raising their rates faster than hookers.

BlondeRoots759 reads

I posed the question the way I did because the blog is from the man's perspective.  I just want to know why marriage has deteriorated the way it has.  I do think that women are confused about our roles in marriage because womens options have expanded so much.  Men's roles in marriage (and society in general) have remained pretty much the same over the past century.  

In 2015, what should a young woman do to improve the odds of a successful marriage?  Should she go back to a tradional role?  Or have a successful career plus fulfill the tradional roles of mother and housewife?  Pretty much all women want a man who is successful and provides for the family, but most people in this day and age think a woman is inadequate if she isnt a career woman and tradional housewife and mother.  But if she tries to do everything, something winds up going to the shitter (like the respect and sexual desire for her husband?)


-- Modified on 9/29/2015 12:40:01 AM

dakine18936 reads

Never gonna happen. Maybe "traditional" marriage is dead for a good reason.

Posted By: dakine18
Never gonna happen. Maybe "traditional" marriage is dead for a good reason.

forced to accept the sometimes horror of a bad marriage as in abuse and were pressured to stay. Thank the universe that things have changed and women have become more independent and can stand on their own two feet to gt away from such a thing.

Personally I will never get married. I seem to have an expiry date of about 6 months and if whom I am with is not on the same page as in I am a HUGE proponent of keeping the intimacy and sex alive, well then I am out. Never do I want to live as a best friend and be expected to remain monogamous when I want to keep the passion alive and the other one does not.

GaGambler796 reads

Or maybe I am just projecting, because six months of "togetherness" with the same person just seems like an eternity to me, and I bet your "expiration date" is more like 6 weeks than 6 months. Tell me I'm wrong. lol

Count me as one of the VERY happily divorced guys. I don't hate my ex, but if I suffered through years of unhappiness like most of the married guys here seem to do, I am sure the resentment would have grown into full blown hate by now.

I "try" not to be too terribly judgmental when married guys come on here and whine about how miserable they are, but it's hard not to bash them over the head and tell them to simply "man up" and retake control over their lives if they are truly that miserable the way their lives are today.

Dear Hbyist+Truth:
Now I see what Maggie Mcneill was going through in her recent marriage.  I also appreciate from Eric's lyrics what would be transpiring with you when your in a session with a client and an old SO is trying to get your attention.  " If your wondering why your knocking and I ain't opening up,it's because I loving your best friend". First you don't want to be a best friend and because of the lack of attention you begin to seek your need elsewhere with a slight bonus.

Posted By: hbyist+truth=;(
forced to accept the sometimes horror of a bad marriage as in abuse and were pressured to stay. Thank the universe that things have changed and women have become more independent and can stand on their own two feet to gt away from such a thing.  
   
 Personally I will never get married. I seem to have an expiry date of about 6 months and if whom I am with is not on the same page as in I am a HUGE proponent of keeping the intimacy and sex alive, well then I am out. Never do I want to live as a best friend and be expected to remain monogamous when I want to keep the passion alive and the other one does not.

Marriages back then were stable but the woman was literally kept in a cage. If she was unhappy she had little choice. Getting divorced as a woman back then was social suicide, made you undesirable (well it still does today) and took away your livelihood since the man made all the money. If she did divorce she would have limited job options with a low wage ceiling and be almost certain to live in poverty. Back then there was very little incentive for them to choose divorce.

Any sort of movement whether it be good or bad is going to be used to forward agendas of the indecent. Overall feminism has empowered women tremendously compared to the 1950s and in no doubt has this made women more content with their lives. It's just with more freedom, there is going to be more various types of choices for women to make and therefore women become more diverse personality wise as a result from their choices. There will be hard working, workaholic women who are great at their trades and there will be those who choose to abuse their privilege and just be complete leeches on the decent. This is the same with men.

Do women exploit divorce laws which are in their favor? There's no good way to say this but yes they do and its only human they do. Here they have an opportunity to almost effortlessly take someone's money legally. They probably just took the kids and mortgage on the home and know they need money so why not take the money? Plus the guy probably broke her heart or something and already gave her what she wanted most in the marriage: kids, so he's pretty worthless to her anyways.  

There are numerous factors that make modern marriage "craptastic".  

1. Family court is fucked up
2. Divorce lawyers are evil ("just doing their jobs")
3. Less and less families practice the Christian faith
4. Both men and women have more choice as society becomes more advanced, so they find it hard to be committed/compromising
5. People not thinking long and hard enough before getting married
6. Shit prenuptial agreement

Sure there's more. Feminism is not one of them.

Feminism has done a ton to improve women's lives. It has done a lot of good than it has bad. Again, every movement there will be people trying to forward special agendas and these people ruin the good image.  

There are various solutions:  

1) Do not get legally married. You do not need a court to decide if you love each other. Although be warned in some states or provinces that simply living with someone for long enough can make you legally married to each other.  

2) Fix up family courts, make it non-medieval.  

3) For men, marry a foreign, traditional, family-orientated girl from the 2nd-3rd world. We're talking about Vietnamese, Ukrainians, Pollacks, Persians, Russians, Mexicans...

4) For women, marry upper-middle class beta male who works in an environment that has little to no females. We're talking engineering, any trade, construction labor, maths, software...

5) More public awareness of how to properly do a prenuptial, getting 2 lawyers, one for each party as witnesses.

6) More public awareness of how you should think long and hard before tying the knot

BlondeRoots623 reads

So, maybe legal marriage (amongst intelligent, prudent people) should not be seen as the only way to be in a committed partnership or raise children.

I disagree that women should marry doods in male dominated industries because it's not like those guys are androids and don't have access to women outside of the workplace.  

I definitely agree that family court and divorce laws need to evolve and not encourage unfairness to one party.  

Maybe one day, tradional marriage will be replaced with with a sort of 5-10 year marriage contract where the parties must agree to renew or cancel, and both people are held accountable for their performance during each period

But the rest of us gals say "FUCK THAT".

We ladies will continue to lead the wonderfully fulfilling lives that we have now. Some of us married, some not. Some happy, some not. Sounds like you are grasping at straws in an attempt to quantify why marriage in the 21st century isn't like it was in 1946. Well there are ALOT of things that aren't like they were in 1946.

Maybe modern marriage is so "craptastic" because it takes two to tango.  
Don't villainize us women for the societal changes that were a long time coming - and still evolving as we speak. Change, by it's very nature, evokes unrest and ultimate adaptation. Accept it and own it. Only a coward retreats.

BlondeRoots851 reads

But really, I'm not grasping at any straws- I was born in the 80s.  I just want to have some dialogue, ideas, about how/why the institution of marriage is generally so crappy now.  If society and roles have changed, maybe marriage should change too??  I just don't know how...

Marriage is sort of unnatural from a biological standpoint. I think our natural, animalistic tendencies is to have a romantic period where we have great sex for the purposes of procreation and child-rearing. And after that, it becomes natural, again from a biological standpoint, to get bored with the process and thus seek out new partners ... with the idea of increasing the diversity of the gene pool. i.e. the more diverse the gene pool, the greater the chance of our species survival?

It's just a theory, but as I've grown older I have started to think differently about the whole notion of true love for life, monogamy and all that. I used to be a die-hard, hopeless romantic and believe in true love and soulmates. But to be perfectly honest, most of the women I've dated have kind of killed off that part of me, little by little.

Even though women appear to be more emotional and get in to things like romantic flicks and books, etc.  I actually think that guys are the ones who tend to love deeper and hurt much greater when relationships end, etc. At least that's been my observation. YMMV.

BlondeRoots614 reads

And that men and women love differently.  Maybe women love men for what the man can do for them, and men love women a bit deeper?  Maybe that could be true.

I think with any love relationship, there is a period where you both are in it for the same reasons. But over time, when the initial thrill dies off, you have to sort of look for other reasons. :-) That's why the whole thing is just so hard. Is it possible to find someone who is just that stable, sane, rational, mature enough to find other ways to love another person even after the initial romantic thrill ride is done and reality starts creeping in.

But the statistical likelihood of it just isn't quite there for everyone. I guess I still believe in true love though, despite the fact that the odds are against it. Just striving for it and wanting it can help you grow as a person and learn new things about yourself after each failed attempt. :-)  

Sadly, if the only thing you learn from the failed experience is ... women suck and marriage is a prison, then I think you're fundamentally missing out on the fruits of your failures. Unless that fruit is "Not to let another human being define your happiness."

A very wise man once said:

“That’s what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we’ve changed because of it, and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way is winning.”

..."But to be perfectly honest, most of the women I've dated have kind of killed off that part of me, little by little"...

What did they do? I am not asking this to attack you, I am really interested in what women have done from your perspective.

A lot of times women will give off the vibe that they want a romantic guy to sweep them off their feet ... write them pretty love songs, buy they flowers and basically give them the world.  

When, in reality, if you were to actually behave like guys do in romantic comedies or novels ... you're more likely to find yourself with a restraining order than you are to win her heart. :-) Women will say they want that stuff, but once you provide them with the "romantic boyfriend experience," they have this way of bolting for the door once they get it. The whole "romance" thing gets minsinterperated as "needy," "clingy," "doesn't have a spine," or insert whatever other adjective that applies.

And that might just be natural with both sexes? Maybe there is a part of us that just loves a challenge. And when it comes to landing a mate, we want to feel like we've scored some sort of moral victory? Like a romantic "notch in the bedpost" if you will? And someone who is just too easy or or available emotionally -- where's the challenge in that?

Unfortunately, with women, I don't know if this is very healthy. What winds up happening is they seek out men who are just emotionally aloof or unavailable. Hence why you'll hear a lot of single guys say "women only want to date jerks." And yes, I understand that is an over-used cliche' but there is an element of truth to it. Otherwise, you wouldn't hear so many guys say it so often. So the quintessential "nice guy," in order to adapt and find a mate ... starts taking notes on what the successful guys are doing ... and unfortunately, that often means being more aloof, selfish, unpredictable, etc. because those are what we observe to be the "successful traits" in our peers when it comes to landing a desirable female. So we emulate it in hopes of achieving similar success.

This is a VERY GENERALIZED statement, mind you. I'm painting with very broad brush strokes, so take this with a grain of salt.

Posted By: hbyist+truth=;(
..."But to be perfectly honest, most of the women I've dated have kind of killed off that part of me, little by little"...  
   
 What did they do? I am not asking this to attack you, I am really interested in what women have done from your perspective.
-- Modified on 9/29/2015 9:24:40 AM

BlondeRoots714 reads

Women love an unpredictable guy sometimes.  A guy who you're not sure is going to bring you flowers or punch you in the face.  Lol.  I kid, I kid.  But men like bitches sometimes too.  If a girl is 80/20, sweet/bitch, he's in heaven because shes usually great but will go BSC on his ass the second he fcks up.  No one likes a doormat.

GaGambler699 reads

I don't want a doormat for an SO, and neither do any women I know. Some guys mistake being a doormat for being a "nice guy" and mistake having a spine with being a "bad boy"  

It's not that women want to be mistreated, but most women want the man to be a man, not a spineless jellyfish that grovels at her feet. Anyone who doubts me need look no further than this very board. How many of the BSU's here command even the slightest bit of respect from women who you would think would adore them as they make their lives so much easier professionally?

Now I won't go so far as to say I am in heaven being with a woman that I believe might go BSC on me, but I will agree that I don't want the sweet, submissive, female version of a BSU either.

GaGambler578 reads

Mangina was so overused I felt it was time for a new term. Plus as a contest it's every bit as hotly contented as the SPOTY's were the first couple of years.

My stepmother has walked all over my dad since the day they married.

He'll go to his grave insisting she's just a strong willed indepenent type.

And I can keep lying to myself saying my current SO is just the nicest person but truth be told she lets people take advantage of her. I'm at peace with that, but let's not pretend that women aren't the biggest offenders.  

People who think rationally or logically are far less prone to mistaken judgement.

Unfortunately.

Posted By: BlondeRoots
Women love an unpredictable guy sometimes.  A guy who you're not sure is going to bring you flowers or punch you in the face.  Lol.  I kid, I kid.  But men like bitches sometimes too.  If a girl is 80/20, sweet/bitch, he's in heaven because shes usually great but will go BSC on his ass the second he fcks up.  No one likes a doormat.

I am not the typical female as far as that goes.

You make some good points. I will never understand the attraction an asshole has...all I want to do to them is well...it's not very nice.  

I am also not the "I love a challenge" type...if I have to work that hard to convince someone to be with me, odds are they might not stay around that long...hang on, that might just work considering my expiration date is 3 months...corrected from 6. Hmmmm might have to rethink this one.  

I am okay with broad brush strokes or the "in my personal experience"...because that is all you have to go on.

Alan_Nimm764 reads

Nice guys can and do come out on top all the time. Sure, some women gravitate towards jerks, and the jerks are welcome to those women. The kind of women I'm attracted to appreciate "nice" guys. Not pushovers, mind you. And not always predictable. But not aloof, or selfish.  

That's one of the things I appreciate about seeing providers. It's not about trying to "land" a woman. I am "free to be me".  And yeah, I consider myself a nice guy and have been told that by the providers I've met. And you know what?  They don't seem to mind one bit.  

In the end you have to be the person YOU want to be.

One of the very few social situations where I can be as nice as I want ... and the nicer I am, the more ass I get!  :-)

Obviously, I know it's not "real" but for that time we spend together I can be that nice guy and STILL get laid.  

Can't beat that!

Real in the fact that if you are nice you will be welcomed back and NOT just tolerated for the money (I don't care to do that but some do). In this business IMO, a nice guys goes a long way and gets more. Assholes tend to get black listed or never seen again...info from chatting with other hookers.

hat I'm talking about is the illusion that being nice and gentlemanly will result in getting laid more. :-)

Obviously that part is an illusion, because, well .... if you pay for it it's a sure thing, right? I mean, unless you're just an incredible asshole. And in that event, nothing is going to help you! LOL!

But I will tell you that from my many years of trial and error, I can conclude definitively that being extra nice and gentlemanly does NOT have a net positive effect of helping you get laid more. In fact, I have found it to have an inverse relationship. The nicer I am, the less likely I am to get laid. In other words niceness is the perfect anti-sex serum that instantly makes a girl's legs close up.

HOWEVER there is a silver lining to this. Being "that nice" does increase your chances of the woman introducing you to her circle of friends. She'll say great things about you to her friends, and then it's game on! So in an INDIRECT way it can increase your chances ... but never directly.  

As odd and funny as that all sounds ... it has, time and again, proven itself to be true. For me, my friends, and most guys I personally know well

And if she does, she deserves all she gets and will get no sympathy from me.  

I was referring to this P4P situation, not out in the real world. I guess that is where things change because there is no  money changing hands, well as directly as it does here.  

Even if the guy is pretending to be nice just as the hooker is pretending to enjoy his company, there is that thinly veiled facade that allows the process to continue without harming either party. Disingenuous, yes by most standards, however in life there is a lot of that...the waiter that wishes you a nice day...does he or she really give a shit what happens to you after you leave the establishment?

I am convinced that the two of you would just cancel each other out.

And you would have lots of happy, smiling babies. And the whole bunch of you would drive around in your happy mobile. Flowers would bloom as you walked by, and butter flies, kittens and bunny rabbits would follow you around gingerly as the sun smiled down on you ... showering you with it's beautiful rays of happiness.

And world peace would be achieved. :-)  

I'm just giving you crap now, Hobbyist. But I do like your style. You're kind of a refreshing beacon of cold truth and honesty in this cess pit that I affectionately know as the TER message board.

PM me sometime and let me know your story. Not sure if you're a provider or not, but I could use a new ATF. (Disclaimer: this is not a solicitation and anything that happens between two consenting adults is voluntary and no animals were harmed in the making of this post).

WildJimmy!830 reads

The entire discussion of why couples do or don't stay together centers on how they interact--you know, who gives in to who and who stands up to the other and which is more attractive--and doesn't look at all in how they look at other people in their world. Back in the Father Knows Best day, once married it was just accepted as a given that you were assigned to your spouse for life, and as a team you focused on how your little family fared with everyone else's family. Each pair was two selves who worked as a unit on how the interacted with the outside world.

If you're focused entirely on the marriage relationship, I can't see how you could avoid eventually finding problems and annoyances. And there's no social assumption that marriage lasts till death do you part. Life was different, and people were different. They understood less and expected less.

That's my opinion.

...and the age group most likely to divorce at any given time is the Boomer generation, I'd say that your assumption about "traditional values" is quite unfounded.  

Divorce rates for gen x and millennials are lower because they aren't getting married; they're co-habitating and then breaking up instead of getting married then divorced. They're also marrying later in life, which aids in preventing divorce overall.  

Modern marriage isn't "craptastic". It's marriages founded in those "traditional values" that you're elevating that are so "craptastic" that they're ending in divorce. You're trying to blame modern divorce rates on feminism, when marriage itself is an institution based on the political and monetary acquisition and exchange of women. Not to mention that modern divorce law is steeped in deeply held beliefs concerning gender roles that are antiquated. Courts give women custody of kids because women are stereotypical nurturers; courts award women alimony because women traditionally had no money or income of their own. Neither of these traditional assumptions are any longer the case when it comes to women's roles in the home or at work.  

Tradition sure is awesome, isn't it?

Random musings on this subject:

1. "Till death do us part"?  Marriage is only considered successful if it ends in one party's death?  WTF?

2. In my state at least, divorce laws turn everything upside down:  Good paying, steady employment is bad.  Unemployment (especially long-term!) is good.  Saving money is foolish.  Squandering joint assets - why not?  Responsible behavior is punished.  Irresponsible behavior, rewarded.

3. I only got active in P4P when I knew for sure the marriage was doomed.  For me, P4P is more about distraction from the long term relationshit than anything else.

Quiz: If you are on a train and discover that it is heading in the wrong direction (whether you originally got on the wrong train, plans changed, or you missed a stop), what do you do?
 a. jump off immediately?
 b. get off at the next stop?
 c. wait to get off at a stop where you can get moving in the right direction?
My answer: c.  But I don't have the answer key so not sure that is the right answer

TheApe644 reads

You are correct in answering c.  Timing is everything.   I know men who let their ego lead and file for divorce too quickly without understanding the financial blows they can take in the family court.   In my mind, why divorce when you can hobby until the time is right for you.  It is a man's world.  No woman can make you unhappy.

Intrigued*761 reads

...that he was happily married because he loved his wife, was determined to stay married to his wife for life, had accepted that no human endeavor is perpetually perfect or good or even OK, that HIS attitude and actions toward his wife made a significant difference in his wife's attitude and actions toward him, that in the bad times of the marriage relationship he had learned to endure and work to make the marriage better/tolerable, that he did not associate his overall wellbeing with his current level of satisfaction with his wife or marriage...it was just one piece of his life...like work.

I think his determination to stay married is the key.

What's the purpose of needing each other when you don't even want each other? Miserable marriages aren't anything new. It's just more acceptable now, in America at least, to end them.  

I think people would be better off if they went about marriage in terms of limited contracts. You could sign a 2-5 year agreement with the option to renew. At the end of the allotted time, if both parties are enjoying themselves they can renew for another few years. If not, then they go their separate ways. No surprises

Personally I have a theory that all relationships become friendships after 10 years.  This is just based on knowing so many people who started wanting out or wanting to cheat after 10 years (myself included).

I don't think it has anything to do with society.  I think it's just the nature of monogamy.  Once you have kids, or maybe even without them, marriages turn into business partnerships.  It's less about being in love and more about Family, Inc.  

Or, maybe it has to do with age.  I'm really not sure.

The problem being that passion and desire require a certain amount of distance and mystery, some space to nurture and explore fantasy. The couples that have the most sexual problems are probably the ones who are around each other all the time and only see their partner as that slob on the couch.

It's a story as old as time.

I'm in a pretty neat marriage myself right now, and I think it is partly on account of the fact that my wife and I live 1,500 miles apart.

I think there is some support for that idea in the Talmud.

I think Einstein if oft quoted as saying:  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time.

If that is true, then I think that proves that humanity is insane

and starts out with blaming all women. Then asking guys opinions here is also not a valid sample of all marriages. While I have no idea of how many guys here are happy with their marriage  but some of them are and have stated so.
However this topic should get lots of entries

I thought after 30+ years I had avoided the problem. Nope. Wife saw how much $ she could get. Made decent income on her own. Kids were grown and we had grown spart. Boom! Married to a signed decree in 6 week

People (or the ones that tend to be romantic idealists) expect more out of their marriage partner than ever before: best friend, confidant, shared breadwinner-homemaker, passionate lover, soul mate; basically someone to fill one's every want and need.  

Marriages used to be more practical-minded, and people had affairs in order to fulfill their romantic and emotional desires. With modern marriages being more egalitarian, the problem is that instead of women being given the freedom to explore and play like men had, rather the cage that women have long suffered in has been extended to men. It boils down to possessiveness born of people being insecure about losing their partner to another, which results in resentment from feeling trapped.  

The solution is that couples HAVE TO discuss their long term expectations of each other before getting married. Sexual compatibility should be a top criteria. Monogamy also has to be discussed rather than expected as default. I think a lot of people about to get married just cross their fingers and hope it all works itself out.

on a very very very simplistic note, marriage is an institution created by women for women...

now for serious thought as I was married for 25 years before my divorce at 57....
I think many married males feel that being married is bad because this is the time of life where all the heavy lifting is done.  In most marriages, I think, the male is still the main breadwinner and has a lot of pressure to be less risky...you know, keep the same job even though you hate it, etc, Its the time you are raising children and if the wife works too, then there is more pressure to be home coupled with pressure to make more money.  It's very tough on both, but this was about guys.  Personally, I wanted to change careers a couple of times, but the fields I wanted to go into were partially commission based and with a wife, a mortgage, two kids and a dog, it just wasn't happening.

As to the guys who are thrilled to be divorced....well I am not thrilled, but as time goes on I am really enjoying being alone more and more....hence the hobbying...I am a Charlie Sheen disciple in that I don't pay women to have sex with me, I pay them to go away.  LOL.  But, to be perfectly clear, if I could be where I am today or have continued my marriage, I would have continued my marriage.

Of roses......th ladt 24 years has been a hell of a ride....and i wouldnr change it for anything.......my wife has always been the ONE....even when i had my mid life crisis and strayed she was always right there by my side......some days are harder than others...you just have to decide whats important to you....and to me that is the love and trust of the greatest petson in my life........divorce was never an option for me.....but i say if you are miserable (i wasnt) in your marriage then get out.....dont cause someone you claim to love unnecessary pain....i strive everyday to make it up to my wife because she didnt deserve what i did to her......some people are miserable no mate what and cant be happy....tjose people should never get married. ....both male and female.

What many miss is marriage is work if you want it to work. I read all those guys complain about the long hours they spent at work, but how many hours did they spend working on their marriages. How many of them still dated their wives after they said "I do"? How many dressed up to impress like they did when they were dating when going on these date? How many made sure their was both set aside family time and couple time? And I am not talking about just sex but time to set goals, share dreams, celebrate each others victories and morn defeats. To talk about what is real in the relationship. Most people don't. They take each other for granted or worse become competitive.

My wife and I pass each other love notes and thank you's. We explore each others kinks. We talk a lot. We go on weekly dates. Real dates where we dress to excite each others. We work daily on our marriage and I can say we are more in love now than when we got married.  

That doesn't mean we have always been perfect. I can say there has been nights I din't like my wife all that much, and honestly there has been times I have been an atrocious husband. But we worked things out. I would not trade my marriage in for anything.  

And one last thing, It is OK to need someone. I am not ashamed to say I need my wife. She gives me hope when I am down, holds me when I am sad and even cries with me when I am to the point of crying. She held me up when I was weak. She cheers me on and celebrates my wins. I need her and I feel she needs me as I try my best to do the same for her in return. I love her.

And no she isn't perfect and she has hurt me, but and long term relationship needs a healthy dose of forgiveness.  

I just get tire of the marriage bashing. The best thing that ever happened to me is when I conned my wife into saying "I do". After years 11 years of marriage I still both love and lust after my wife and I am proud to be her husband.

Now I am stepping off my high horse.

Finally!

One man who can get on here and have a real expectation of marriage. Excellent. I loved your post. I wholeheartedly agree. May you, your wife and your children (if you have children) be blessed! I am part of gen x. It would be great to learn from people who have a healthy beautiful marriage like you. I really have no interest in learning from bitter sex-crazed cavemen or hateful non-forgiving feminist women. Is there a healthy medium somewhere? I hope you are teaching the children you have what you just wrote on here. Hopefully we will have a new generation of men and women who aren't so bitter and angry towards marriage! I applaud you! Keep up the great work.

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