...I know for a fact that in some (but sadly not all) jurisdictions the rape of a sex worker is taken very seriously.
There was a recent case and resulting Mary Mitchell column about an escort pressing charges for rape.
Mary Mitchell's stance is that prostitutes cannot be raped; it is merely theft of services. It would seem that some agree with that view, while others vehemently disagree.
Rather than discussing that case, I'd like opinions on a hypothetical one.
An escort (let's call her Molly) has thoroughly screened her in-call date, Jack: checked his multiple references, conducted online searches with his real name, and learns quite a bit about him via social media. He's a family man with good references, has written very favorable reviews of several ladies, and has no criminal record.
Jack shows up on time, sets down the donation, they sit on the couch for a little getting-to-know-you chat and all seems fine.... at first. But after a minute, Molly starts to feel uneasy.
Her spidey-senses are tingling, hair on the back of her neck is standing up, but she doesn't know why. She asks him a few idle questions, tries to shake off her uneasiness, but his responses and behavior only serve to further increase her discomfort.
Molly stands up from where they've been sitting, says, "I'm sorry but this just isn't going to work" then asks him to leave and indicates that he should take the donation with him.
Jack stands up and moves towards the door as though to leave, but then turns around with a gun in hand, pointing it at Molly's head. He tells her that he is not going to leave until he gets what he came there to get. Molly asks Jack not to hurt her and tells him she'll do whatever he wants.
Skipping over the nitty-gritty details: Molly, at gunpoint, first performs fellatio and then Jack vaginally penetrates her (with a condom on) until he is done. He deposits the condom in a wastebasket and then departs, having left the money (donation) with Molly.
Jack believes he has simply insisted on receiving the services for which he paid.
Molly feels and believes she was in real danger, and was raped.
What say you? Rape or not rape?
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
PS~ This scenario is not a role-play. Jack did not in any way inform Molly of his intentions prior to their encounter. He would not have pulled a gun if Molly had not asked him to leave, thereby refusing to willingly provide her services to him.
:Edited to include the post-script.:
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 9:15:09 AM
when you force someone to do something against their will..it is rape..
At gun point which is most likely a felony at least. So because she "consented" under duress, to letting him have sex with her. Not a lawyer, however not sure what the legal term might be for forcing sex at gunpoint even though she relented because of the gun pointed at her head.
"Jack" should be looking at a very long prison sentence in a fair world, but with a lack of physical evidence of forced intercourse, what Molly does for a living, and no corroborating witnesses who witnessed the gun, sans a confession, a conviction would be a long shot.
Just one more reason this "hobby" should come out of the darkness and let's prosecute REAL crimes like what "Jack" did to "Molly" and not be wasting resources trying to put "Molly" behind bars for what she does with her own body.
Nope, not consent... not even remotely. It's coerced acquiescence. Ain't no volitional agreement happening here no how no way. This is actually about as bad as it gets in terms of rape. Not sure about all jurisdictions but hard to imagine one that doesn't escalate the severity with a weapon is used. This is life damaging and hopefully no one who has ever dealt with this should ever feel they consented to anything.
Now, whomever suggested that this would be a difficult case to bring in front of a jury made some good points, but given what they call the totality of the evidence, and if the weapon is found and identified accurately regardless of what a jury may think of the victim this guy's getting convicted and going to spend many years finding out what it feel like to be raped.
Rape is rarely leads to arrest. Even less often does it go to trial. And rarely does the trail lead to conviction. Out of 100 rapes it is estimated only 2 rapes will spend a day in jail. In my state only 20% of rape kits are even processed. Sorry your just wrong. Odds are they wouldn't even look at the evedence.
Now, whomever suggested that this would be a difficult case to bring in front of a jury made some good points, but given what they call the totality of the evidence, and if the weapon is found and identified accurately regardless of what a jury may think of the victim this guy's getting convicted and going to spend many years finding out what it feel like to be raped.
You are quoting broad statistics in terms of bringing a case to a prosecutor. Here thought I was talking about the evaluation of the evidence in this particular instance. You can have your opinion and I can have mine. I'm fine with disagreeing, and if your evaluation of the evidence differs from mine, well, that's what makes life interesting - but with the evidence I just described, if I were a lawyer I'd be happy to take this to trial, though in your jurisdiction it may never get to the prosecutor, or if it did they may dismiss it for fear of an acquittal - I get that. The statistics you quote may have some validity in a broad sense, but while the odds are 'they' wouldn't even look at the evidence, and while in yours 'they' wouldn't, from what I know about other jurisdictions there are many that would. I'm truly sorry fr what happened to you and that yours does not, but for reasons I won't go into i do know there are many places with prosecutors not afraid to take these cases on and where they work with LE, victim's advocates, and the victims to build a case. It's a shame the results are so uneven across the country, I don't dispute that.
.
This world is often truly f'd up
and could not because it contained personal information, a google search will show up instances of successful prosecutions of men convicted of raping escorts, including rapes with weapons. And such successful prosecutions do happen with some regularity. I am not disputing the statistics you quote, and as I said, I agree the results are uneven at best, but there are several jurisdictions where prosecutors would go after someone like this and where juries will convict.
But sadly it seems to be the exception instead of the rule. Sadly many have the same attitude of the article sited by the OP you can't rape a prostitute, it's just theft of service. In any case I would hope I would be very wrong. I don't want to ever be right about cops and prosecutors not doing their jobs when it comes to rape.
When one party says no, anything that has happened stops and parties are to part ways.
Touch subject, but this is my input.
The only time this wouldn't apply is if someone is in a bdsm fantasy play and there is a safe word. That's a role that I do not do because I am not comfortable with those boundaries, but I know it works for many.
In the real world, when someone says stop.. No... Etc..... You stop.
If you have someone in your life who does things like this to antagonize you, they are manipulators and your life would be way better off without them in it.
Have a wonderful day. Let's respect each other as much as we can. Life is much happier when there is peace. A little bit of fun here and there, but we know when we cross lines. Let's be respectful of them.
xo
The only way it's not is if that scenario was discussed and agreed to in advance by the provider. The way you've written the scenario I think that possibility is excluded.
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 7:24:41 AM
If you put a gun to any girl's head and force her to suck cock you will be charged with rape. The fact you left money for her time won't mitigate the charges.
I think what she's trying to say (if im not wrong), is that as soon as the authorities or, the hospital personnel who perform the rape kit on you; (if) they find out you are an escort, they stop treating you like a rape victim... that's a fact.
The city and county of San Francisco decided more than a decade ago that sex worker rape victim can not be treated any different than a non sex worker by the police , hospital and court system. That's pretty much true in the whole Bay Area...I know for a fact that in some (but sadly not all) jurisdictions the rape of a sex worker is taken very seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/01/us/01brfs-judge.html?_r=1&
MANY sex workers claim having tried to report sexual assault and have stated that they were treated not only as criminals during the report, but also a lack of follow through on the complaints. And these are the cases where the cops are not the injurious parties... and another common one is the man impersonating a police officer...
What often happens in rape cases?
Doesn't matter if you are a sex worker or not, unfortunately -
http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2015/06/20/rape-kits/29013941/
"The MSU study also found that law enforcement in Detroit expressed negative opinions about sexual assault victims, often blaming them for the crimes they reported.
"Rape survivors were often assumed to be prostitutes and therefore what happened to them was considered to be their own fault," according to the report. "Adolescents were assumed to be lying, trying to avoid getting into trouble by concocting a false story about getting raped."
Victims assaulted by acquaintances or friends "got what they got" because they had chosen to associate with the perpetrator. Case after case was labeled "a deal gone bad" or otherwise dismissed as "not really a rape.""
However, if you are...
I am happy that some cases are taken seriously. Many are not.
http://www.alaskacommons.com/2015/09/02/amber-batts-case-sheds-light-on-alaskas-struggles-with-sex-trafficking
"In Burns’ 2014 University of Alaska Fairbanks graduate research of Alaska’s sex trafficking laws and their effect on sex workers, Burns asked participants to describe interactions with law enforcement in which they reported themselves as victims of or witnesses to a crime while working. About a third were threatened with arrest, more than half did not have their reports taken, and about 6 percent were arrested. 80 percent of victims or witnesses of crimes who labeled themselves “manipulated or coerced” attempted to report a crime. The police took only 20 percent of their reports, arrested 20 percent, and threatened to arrest 60 percent."
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/328091391.htm
there are many other cities (fairly large and mid-sized) that have made the decision to prosecute the scum that preys on sex workers.
Places I know of or in the news (a simple google search for convicted raping prostitute will show you many of these) for this are Springfield, MO; Oklahoma City; San Diego; New Orleans; Nashville; DC; Houston; New Mexico, and many more - and some of the defendants are cops. And juries are convicting. I know this is not the case everywhere, but things are changing,prosecutors are getting more aggressive as they see the successes, and the climate for taking these cases on is changing in more places than you think.
Unfortunately, most rapes of sex workers will not be reported, and here in Seattle - the prosecuting attorneys office seems to not care.
As a representative of SWOP-Seattle I've personally met with the city and prosecuting attorney office representatives about the negative effects of their "End Demand" campaign, and have tried to set up a meeting to specifically propose an amnesty program for sex workers and their clients to report abuses.
They "assured" me that they do not arrest victims. What do those words mean to someone who has their real life and child custody on the line? To someone whose safety and security is being invisible to law enforcement? To homeless youth who quite possibly have had negative interactions with law enforcement? Even after mentioning the rape at gun point report we'd received the week prior, and clearly stating that not ONE victim I have engaged with in my volunteer capacity was willing to file a police report even with an advocate at their side - the response to our request for discussing the proposal? Radio silence.
Some do take it seriously.
Some do not.
I do not see a tide of change happening, but I do hope that you are right.
Some states don't even recognize the term "rape." And instead, they use the word "sexual assault."
All of which is a moot point, because as soon as a gun was used, you can push for either:
- Assault with a deadly weapon
OR
- Aggravated sexual assault
Either of which will carry with them a higher maximum penalty, so it would make no real sense to even push for rape charges at that point. And even if you did, they'd be a drop in the bucket. Once you get them on either of the weapon-related assault charges, they'll be locked away for a long enough time to where, once they get out, they probably won't be able to get it up any longer anyway -- so their pimpin' days will likely be over anyway by default.
So yea ... congrats on a really stupid illustration.
It's a no brainer. And just because some asshole columnist shits out a manifesto declaring that raping a prostitute is simply theft of services, that doesn't make it true (until Ju$tice $calia says otherwise).
I don't mean to sound flippant as I know this was asked as a serous question. However would anybody say this is not rape?
So Joe goes to a call dealer and takes a test drive with the salesman. When the salesman says they should head back Joe pulls a gun. Joe tells the guy he wants to go to Atlantic city. Salesman says whatever just don't hurt me. They drive to Atlantic city. Joe picks up the crab cakes he was craving. They drive back to the dealership. Joe says thanks but I don't think this car is for me. Or hell he buys the car. Does anyone think he should get off Scott free after holding someone against their will?
The columnist that wrote the article is all about sensationalism and is trying to generate buzz. Who knows what they really think. Not that it matters what they think. Clearly a provider can be raped and the individual doing so should not get away with it.
If a guy shoots you after mugging you are you going to harp over the mugging or the attempted murder?
Priorities!
So Joe goes to a call dealer and takes a test drive with the salesman. When the salesman says they should head back Joe pulls a gun. Joe tells the guy he wants to go to Atlantic city. Salesman says whatever just don't hurt me. They drive to Atlantic city. Joe picks up the crab cakes he was craving. They drive back to the dealership. Joe says thanks but I don't think this car is for me. Or hell he buys the car. Does anyone think he should get off Scott free after holding someone against their will?
The columnist that wrote the article is all about sensationalism and is trying to generate buzz. Who knows what they really think. Not that it matters what they think. Clearly a provider can be raped and the individual doing so should not get away with it.
I have. I rather have been just assaulted with a gun. The assault with a weapon is part of the rape, but the rape is the worse part unless they kill her or cripple her for life. Rape is so vile and horrid it may trump those. It robs you of all dignity. To this day it affects me. Rape is one of the worse things a person can do to another.
Assault with a deadly weapon is enough to put the person away for a very long time.
After that you can even nab the bastard for all he's worth in a civil suit, claiming psychological damage.
I'm not trying to dis-count the absolute horror that is rape. My heart and prayers go out to you for that. But really, in the hypothetical situation outlined in this post ... your priority should be on locking the guy up. Not on harping over the legalities. Leave that crap to the lawyers. Put the bastard away and get him off the streets end of story.
My point was just because the MF let's you go does not mean it was not rape or kidnapping.
Mary Mitchell's stance is that prostitutes cannot be raped; it is merely theft of services. It would seem that some agree with that view, while others vehemently disagree.
Rather than discussing that case, I'd like opinions on a hypothetical one.
An escort (let's call her Molly) has thoroughly screened her in-call date, Jack: checked his multiple references, conducted online searches with his real name, and learns quite a bit about him via social media. He's a family man with good references, has written very favorable reviews of several ladies, and has no criminal record.
Jack shows up on time, sets down the donation, they sit on the couch for a little getting-to-know-you chat and all seems fine.... at first. But after a minute, Molly starts to feel uneasy.
Her spidey-senses are tingling, hair on the back of her neck is standing up, but she doesn't know why. She asks him a few idle questions, tries to shake off her uneasiness, but his responses and behavior only serve to further increase her discomfort.
Molly stands up from where they've been sitting, says, "I'm sorry but this just isn't going to work" then asks him to leave and indicates that he should take the donation with him.
Jack stands up and moves towards the door as though to leave, but then turns around with a gun in hand, pointing it at Molly's head. He tells her that he is not going to leave until he gets what he came there to get. Molly asks Jack not to hurt her and tells him she'll do whatever he wants.
Skipping over the nitty-gritty details: Molly, at gunpoint, first performs fellatio and then Jack vaginally penetrates her (with a condom on) until he is done. He deposits the condom in a wastebasket and then departs, having left the money (donation) with Molly.
Jack believes he has simply insisted on receiving the services for which he paid.
Molly feels and believes she was in real danger, and was raped.
What say you? Rape or not rape?
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
PS~ This scenario is not a role-play. Jack did not in any way inform Molly of his intentions prior to their encounter. He would not have pulled a gun if Molly had not asked him to leave, thereby refusing to willingly provide her services to him.
:Edited to include the post-script.:
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 9:15:09 AM
The woman did not want to engage in sex with the man. The man threatened her with violence unless she did. What is difficult about this? Circumstances have NO BEARING. Rape.
Sorry for not being more clear: I was simply asking for personal opinions.
In other words, do YOU consider Molly to be the victim of rape?
Not a legal definition, what any criminal charges might be, whether or not a conviction would be likely, or anything along those lines. Just your personal opinion.
In a thread regarding the actual assault I referenced, the opinion was expressed that had the woman in question been paid, it would not have been rape. That she only reported the rape BECAUSE she was not paid.
I don't know the young woman who was assaulted but I applaud her (and any victim of sexual assault) for being brave enough to go to the police. It is difficult for any victim to do this.
And I would hope that even if he had produced the cash to pay her after forcing her at gunpoint, that she still would have called 911. Because, as those responding to my post have stated, it is still rape.
Yes, I consider both the actual case which happened in the Chicago area and my hypothetical scenario to be rape. No really does mean no.
Thank you all for responding!
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 11:50:54 AM
to sex for pay and then after the dirty deed he withheld payment, I think he might have the better argument that there was no rape.
I've had clients walk out without paying. It's happened to me twice, and both were clients I'd met multiple times prior to that.
With the first, he was about to walk out the door and I assumed he'd simply forgotten (it does happen) so I had to remind him. He made a good show of reaching into his pockets and then claimed he must have left it in the car and would be right back..... yeah, he was gone. With the second, he left me an empty envelope.
I did not feel those instances were rape.... that never once occurred to me.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxxoxoxoxo
If the money was kept, then the guy has a few options and none of those options equals forcing the lady to have sex with him OR its RAPE. He can either try to get his money back if it's still visible, write a review about the lady concerning her keeping the money, take his loss and never see the lady again or some mixture of those. If the lady is saying NO, no matter what and she is forced by any measure, then it is rape. F an opinion on this. I'm sorry. There should have been only one mind needed for that answer, yours on this subject. Maybe you just wanted to see if some fool(s) would say it's not I suppose. Haven't read through the responses but goodness gracious. I wouldn't even want for someone to respond NO to these scenarios. I would want to reach through the Internet and rape their necks. Mercy me. I'm mad right now. No means No, no matter what. No man worth his while in anything, no matter what, would do that to a woman and if so, it's ALWAYS rape. As a poster said, even a wife can be raped. Amen. No means No. With that said, so can a man. Heard of ruffies. Shoot, I also think if a woman is drunk and incoherent, it's fg rape. Now let's talk about that. Because that goes on everyday in so many places around this globe. Disgusting to ME.
She probably wants to distract people by having an opinion on prostitutes because she has her own immoralities in her life. Anyone who thinks it's ok to "rape" a prostitute, but only be charged for theft is out of their damn mind. That or she is a typical timid human being who only says what the majority will agree with and follow. (Easy way to look and sound smart and successful, by the way, in case anyone was wondering.)
What I think:
This is all a heart issue. You can't change how a person sees a prostitute. You just have to hope and pray that the universe will bring about someone into her life that she can verbally confess is a precious human being, then have that precious human being she knows confess that she is a prostitute.
Guess how I know this? I have done the exact thing. BUT - many times, including some pretty close friendships, I was immediately categorized into the "easy lay" box, where, in order to hang out with these guys, I had to have sex with them. (Guess who never got to hang out with me again? lol.)
Also, it has been used as a convenience for guys I dated, to set me lower than them, and also used to convince me that I wasn't worthy of what a "real person" was worthy of. It's used a lot - and you just can't change a person. (But you can leave them!)
So yeah, there are people, even if they're nice guys or gals, who just don't get it. And they will literally categorize you as "not human" and not deserving of being treated humanely like your average worker or college girl who has never been an adult entertainer.
It's called a stigma. Stigmas aren't right, but the fight will continue until the end of time. There will ALWAYS be self righteous bitches proclaiming they are going to go down in history because they have an opinion, and think they sound like an "expert".
Stigmas are easy targets not only to sound smart, but also to get a majority people to agree with your truth.
Medical industry and Medicaid. I've seen people on medicaid go in for medical care. OMG you want heart breaking, they are literally ushered out of society and treated like horrible human beings by medical professionals. It breaks my heart and angers me. But there is just NOTHING you can do about it, even standing there watching.
People are assholes, and if a stigma is attached to their reason for being an asshole, there will always be people lining up to agree with them.
That's why this needs to be legalized. So we can have parades and shit lol. You can't change a person, but you can change society. And then people change only when society and media tells them to. Lots of followers in this world who just follow the masses. So we just have to change society, or continue on with our secret lives and enjoy making a living by having an awesome job with lots of travel, great sex, hot girlfriends who also join in on our sex, lol.
Obviously the woman is dead wrong, and doesn't understand the industry at ALL. Goes to show how many people run their mouths off without having the slightest clue of what an industry is about.
Can't have everything, right? LOL
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 12:52:19 PM
I've literally had people say in the same conversation, "It's dangerous!" Then, "but since you're doing it, If I were you, I'd just do anyone who asks and make a ton of money and get out."
Like dude. That's how you get raped and ripped off.
-- Modified on 9/22/2015 3:50:00 PM
At the moment a woman, any woman, under any circumstance, asys,"no", it becomes rape.
Even if she willingly let him put it in, and mid fuck changes her mind. If he doesn't pull out it is then rape. In your scenario he used force, she said no, it is rape in the purist form.
I know two providers that was raped by clients. It messed them up. One is barely working for fear of a repeat of the rape. She is suffering like any rape victim.
You see whores, hookers, prostitutes, courtesans, escorts, gigalos, soiled doves or any other name for sex worker is titles for people who work a particular job. But they are people first. People can be raped regardless of job. Anyone who feels otherwise are scum so full of hate they can't live happy lives.
... remember, even if there was the faintest glimmer that it could be theft of services, the only services that would be recognized under the law are time and companionship. This is rape and actually aggravated, lock him up and throw away the key, rape in jurisdictions that recognize the use of a weapon to forcibly induce acquiescence.
does not mean they have given blanket permission. Intimate partners can be raped... wives, GFs, maybe less well known but men can be also. So can prostitutes. It is never ok & consenting under threat of violence in order to save the victims life or serious bodily harm... does not make it go away.
Theft of services? The only theft was the reporter's brain.
Anytimes a female does not give consent or has to give consent under force/threat that is basis for rape. Plain and simple.
The only time "theft of service" applies is if she willingly gives consent under her free will expecting that upon completion she will be paid. But instead he refuses to pay her after the deed is done.
No brainer
I've been following this board for a long time and I've seen you post about your rape many, many times. So my question is, does it help you get over it to keep posting about it? It looks like the answer is no. So why keep doing it? Why not look for another way to get over it?
Jest sayin.
Here is a sad fact about one and six women will be raped, and about one in thirty three men will. That is millions of people. Most will remain silent and never report it. Many will never seek help and it is something you need help to heel properly from. Some will never speak of it. And that silence comes at a price.
I can't speak for every rape victim so I will speak of the cost to me for my silence. When I was raped, I did try to get help. But I was dismissed as I was male. I blamed myself. I was so ashamed. who ever heard of a man being raped? I haven't. I felt weak and powerless. I hated me for that. This feelings of weakness and self loathing led to some really bad choices in life. For thirteen years I allowed a thing that I was powerless to stop destroy my very soul. I never got the help I needed to really heal until I did far more damage to me.
In addition my silence kept rapists on the street to rape again.
I finally spoke what happened to me when I met a lady who was just raped. I spoke to comfort her, to let her know she was not alone. Strange thing is it helped me more than her I think. It was another ten years before I was able to publicly admit what happened to me. Now the rape has no real power over me, but some of the things I did when I was hurting does. If that make any sense.
I now speak out and often as I want those that are hurting like I was to know it isn't their fault and they are not alone. I want them to see that someone else has been there and there is help. Far to many are hurting and feeling alone. I hope to bring good from my pain. I have had people reach out to me and I hope I was able to at least feel they aren't alone. I don't know if I helped a soul but I have to do something. No one should have to hide pain like than alone without a friend.
The other reason I speak out is to educate. There is a stigma to being raped. Especially men, and marginalized groups like sex workers. I mean a guy being raped is a joke to many. It is because few speak up. People needs to know it happens and it isn't a joke. Things will not change if no one speaks of it.
The courts and police don't even take rape seriously. Most rape kits are not processed. Only 20% in my fine state are. Maybe if people are vocal that will change.
Does any of this make sense? If not I do not care. I will not hide what happened ever again. I will try to give voice to those not ready to speak. I will try to educate those who are dismissive. I will show people that have been raped they aren't alone. I will try to make something good come from my pain. I think I have l helped a few along the way. If by being open I have help just one person who has been raped that it is worth annoying you and anyone else it annoys as you can just skip my posts. Silence hurts people.
Jest sayin.
I have not been on this board for very long so this is the first time I've seen him post about it. I am impressed by his bravery because it is tough to talk about for many, many victims.
Maybe it does help him to post about it. For some rape victims, every time they say it aloud (or in this case, post it on a public forum) they feel a little bit better. A little less ashamed, a little less alone.
Declaring what happened can be both cathartic and empowering. I wish more people would speak up, and often.
I'm certain that there are both men and women reading this thread who have been raped. Yet where are those voices?
I'll add my own: I've been raped. In circumstances similar to what happened to Molly.
This was a very long time ago. And for me, I don't think there is any getting "over it".
Even if Scoed has come to the best terms possible with he suffered, he speaks out to help others. And he already has.
:stepping down from my soapbox now
Because I was responding directly to the original post with a female being used as example.
If you want to be 100% PC everytime everywhere have at it. Feel free to repost it with the correction you wanted badly.
think I can go to bed safe and relieved with this knowledge
I'm not meaning to sound mean but what the fuck-a-ty fuck is that about? There are no "opinions" to that. There is only one answer. Lawd, Gawd and all that jazz. This place has not changed. Wow. I mean you could have made it a little bit more confusing or unclear.......possibly?! What am I missing here? NOTHING!