I'm of the camp that sees gender as performance, gender being the arbitrary cultural norms assigned to the sexes, as opposed to biologic sex (which itself is proving to be more mutable and slippery a concept the more we progress in our understanding of biology). To varying degrees of conscious thought, we choose to adhere to gender norms based on societal influence/pressure and personal taste. I've always been very attracted to subversion, skepticism, and the active questioning of received wisdom, so I find intentional gender fuckery intoxicating.
Grace Jones is amazing to look at, and her entire give-zero-fucks Amazon schtick delights me. I think she scares many people at least partially because her gender performance is so outside the norm and hard to classify according to traditional categories. I really love the way Conchita Wurst thoroughly confused everybody by being traditionally feminine hi glam with a full beard. Ruby Rose is a little boring in this way because her thing is always very pretty but it stops at mere appearances...she's got short hair and sometimes wears jeans and less makeup, BFD. David Bowie and Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, etc. all have done some incredibly sexy gender play and I have a hard on for all of them.
Also irresistible to me are intentionally hyper feminine performances- Dolly Parton, Dita Von Teese, and many hi glam drag queens come to mind.
NOT appealing is thoughtless, chest thumping machismo, whether exhibited by cis or trans men, lesbians, whoever. I find this particular gender expression often belies an intense insecurity.
Can you tell I really like this topic, and have strong opinions on the matter? Thanks for the thought provoking question!
or are you more attracted to overt femininity/feminine characteristics (or can you do either)? Thank you!!
Sure, she is often styled that way but just looking at her face and figure? Nope, not at all. Not to me, anyways. I've always found her to be beautiful and fierce, and sure, in some photos she looks like Wesley Snipes but that's the intention.
To be honest, I can think of more male celebrities who have an androgynous or even downright feminine aspect.
I have one favorite who is a spinner with a very boyish body that I find irresistible.
On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily hop into bed with David Bowie.
There's a lot of bandwidth in the term
I think both those women are drop dead gorgeous and there are also some feminine men that I find attractive as well (eg David Bowie, Jared Leto). It's the best of both worlds.
A lot of individuals are attracted to androgyny - and here I mean men and women. In this life, and in real life, I am inundated by people who want to talk to me about and woo me because of my androgynous (gender-full and genderfluid) appearance.
The bulk of my media represents me in highly feminine drag, in fact I've only ever done one "drag king" style shoot. But it's pretty obvious by looking at me that I have a slender athletic body, short hair and tons of tattoos. I'm defnitely serving butch aesthetics under all that La Perla and teetering on those Jimmy Choos. In fact, I think that's a large part of my branding and market appeal.
Of course I meet gentlemen who envision me as a Holly Golightly Hepburn pixie femme and would have never even thought of my face as handsome - and that's completely fine. It's fun to be a diva! Kind of like the person who responded above that Grace Jones isn't adrogynous. That poster doesn't see it that way and he probably wouldn't see me that way, and in the end, its just the devil in the details.
But it's very common for folks to want me to show up in preppy boy's button downs and slacks, in workout wear, in a sports coat with a binder (that flattens the chest) and dress shoes... Kind of like a genderfuck date to take out on the town. These are folks who want the people around us to wonder if I'm a boy or a girl or really, just to wonder what in the world we get up to behind closed doors. And most importantly, it's fun for us to lock eyes while we are queuing for admission to a concert or for us to exchange meaningful glances while we eat, while we energetically work out what it is we are going to do once we are alone.
Anyway, I'm not sure of the direction of your post. Are you a fan? Are you someone who presents that way and you're wondering if you can market it? Just feel like injecting some androgynous talk on the board? I love sexual ambiguity and will continue to experiment with ways to represent that in my brand. Have a look at my site 
xoxox
Tori
(Edited for a typo - I'm a copy edit queen).
-- Modified on 9/20/2015 1:20:24 PM
but i hear Hermes and Aphrodite used to date..
Will say no. I think the majority are into the traditionally perceived and manufactured form of femininity. Anything much shy of this will possibly be met with "hell no". This board does have a very tiny %age of men who do embrace women who are a little left of the societal norm.
I prefer to say I like women who look like women, since when is having "normal" taste something we men need to apologize for? I am not into bull dykes, TS's, women that look like men, fat women, old women etc etc etc. I like young, beautiful, feminine women, and I refuse to apologize for it.
so yes, from me it's a definite HELL FUCKING NO!!!
(and I am reminded why I don't go on the General boards). Androgyny/gender fluidity is something I find extremely appealing myself and I feel I've lured many over to that side if they didn't already have a taste for it before, but obviously it's not anyone's cup of tea. Just interested to hear if the popularization of more androgynous figures in media has had any effect on the sexual imagination of the larger client pool...
Thanks!
Were you asking for honest opinions, or did you just want us to blow smoke up your ass?
and I resent the insinuation that because I like my women to look and act like women that some how I am old fashioned, narrow minded or out of touch with the "younger generation"
I would like to point out that most of your examples of androgynous people are all well over sixty, so get over yourself.
I like what I like and I feel NO reason to apologize for it.
....as well as otherwise "feminine looking" women with tats, piercings or non traditional hair colors.
I didn't like her look when she (and I) were young, and I care even less for that look today.
Tats, piercings, and even blue hair don't make a woman look like a man. I like a woman to look like a woman and I don't think my age has a thing to do with it. I am 1,000% hetero, anything that makes a woman look less feminine has the effect of making my willy shrink. Especially the downright scary look of someone like Grace Jones. I bet you could dress her in a pink school girl outfit and she would still look like a beast, NO FUCKING THANKS
Grace Jones would never see you!
Lol
But seriously, to the OP, you can't measure someone's success by the amount of "likes" or views that their posts garner. This site gets about a million viewers a day (according to their own PR), and the percentage that register and participate is jsut a fraction of that.
The best bet is to move forward with marketing something that you feel confident providing, regardless of what the lowest-common-denominator hobby types say. They would have you believe that everyone likes the same thing, and it's just not true. You already know this. We all already know that it's a wide, wild world.
Me and some of the other hairy, dominant ladies who just want to bend guys over and feast on their asses before fucking them... Well we are all doing spectacular.
Being yourself pays off in spades. Authenticity is je ne sais quoi that so many search for and not everyone finds.
Good luck!
xoxox
Tori
and perhaps that is true,
Let's stipulate for a moment that the OP is indeed a woman and asking if guys would be attracted to that look, in that case my answer would be a bit different. I would have to answer that "not for my taste, but there are PLENTY of guys who will be interested, more than enough for her to build a business around"
As for Grace Jones, at 66 with a well padded bank account, I would hope she wouldn't be interested in the likes of me.
You might have missed my point.
Those are 2 separate camps, IMO.
The tats, piercings & purple hair camp can still be on an ultra feminine looking lady..... that is one of my fave looks, in fact. But alot of older guys will immediately dismiss an otherwise hot feminine girl because of her body mods. They would also dismiss any androgenous chicks, with or without body mods. My point was that alot of older guys will only accept a very traditional looking woman. Believe me, I ain't judging. To each their own. I appreciate androgeny, but I prefer a more traditionally feminine looking woman myself. Body mods optional ;
I am also in the camp that "prefers" a more natural look, I am not a big fan of tats, piercings etc, but I am NOT one of those guys who will dismiss an otherwise hot, feminine looking woman simply because of her "body mods" I do subscribe to the mindset however that thinks if a woman looks hot with a lot of ink, she would probably look hotter without it, but that doesn't mean I am going to throw her out of bed for it. Androgeny OTOH, I would never let a manly looking woman into my bed in the first place. As I have said a thousand times "I am unapologetically hetero" not a homophobe mind you, but any sign of masculinity makes my willy do his turtle act.
Why do you think I find fat men highly unattractive...the flabby belly, the tits, the stretch marks and the cellulite. Not my idea of masculinity.
Mind you I have very definite tastes in the people I prefer to fuck and both sexes need to be well muscled and trim.
AND because men have all the hormones and more lean muscle mass etc to be in that condition, I find it even more repulsive when confronted by a fat saggy man.
I am not into dykes (very masculine looking and acting women), fat men, old men, fat women, old women. Nor am I into the skinny, hyper feminine type female either. I like a little grit and strength to go with the femaleness. Not into the hyper masculine chest thumping gorillas either.
Have I ever once criticized you for being just as picky in your "preferred" choice of men as I am in my choice of women?
The only difference is you fuck guys you are not attracted to for money, If this was my living I would suck it up and do what I had to do as well. but since I am actually paying for the privilege, why in the world would I ever dream of paying to fuck a woman I was not attracted to?
Our only difference is that you are a seller and I am a buyer, aside from that being "discriminating" has always supposed to have been a "good" thing. For some reason people think that equal rights means that we are supposed to have no standards and that fat ugly people should be just as desirable to us as young hard bodies. At least "some" of us still have standards. A person can't help being ugly, but with hard work no one has to be fat. I am in 100% agreement with you, flab is flat out disgusting.
I am not arguing anything. You have every right to CHOOSE who you want to pay for sex. I have every right to choose who I have sex with without paying. P4P, I get what I get BUT I knew this going in that I would not be attracted unless a miracle occurred and my type showed up.
A lot of my comments go outside the span of P4P and into the realm of real life where we all interact.
I admit freely I am almost impossible to deal with when it comes to civvie dating BECAUSE I deal with so much that I am not attracted to and inept partners in this job, that my standards for real life are extremely high, so much so that I prefer to be alone more often than not and prefer to masturbate then deal with sloppy lovers.
And to answer your first question, no you have not and to add, I will never expect you are any other man to fuck a woman you are not attracted to, unless you decide to me a male hooker and I know that won't happen, you don't have a strong enough stomach like many hookers do...lol
Especially the part about my weak stomach.
Yes, I find androgyny incredibly sexy, both superficially and more profoundly.
I'm of the camp that sees gender as performance, gender being the arbitrary cultural norms assigned to the sexes, as opposed to biologic sex (which itself is proving to be more mutable and slippery a concept the more we progress in our understanding of biology). To varying degrees of conscious thought, we choose to adhere to gender norms based on societal influence/pressure and personal taste. I've always been very attracted to subversion, skepticism, and the active questioning of received wisdom, so I find intentional gender fuckery intoxicating.
Grace Jones is amazing to look at, and her entire give-zero-fucks Amazon schtick delights me. I think she scares many people at least partially because her gender performance is so outside the norm and hard to classify according to traditional categories. I really love the way Conchita Wurst thoroughly confused everybody by being traditionally feminine hi glam with a full beard. Ruby Rose is a little boring in this way because her thing is always very pretty but it stops at mere appearances...she's got short hair and sometimes wears jeans and less makeup, BFD. David Bowie and Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, etc. all have done some incredibly sexy gender play and I have a hard on for all of them.
Also irresistible to me are intentionally hyper feminine performances- Dolly Parton, Dita Von Teese, and many hi glam drag queens come to mind.
NOT appealing is thoughtless, chest thumping machismo, whether exhibited by cis or trans men, lesbians, whoever. I find this particular gender expression often belies an intense insecurity.
Can you tell I really like this topic, and have strong opinions on the matter? Thanks for the thought provoking question!
I try and stay out of these things here because, I get it, this is a committed culturally left place.
But that last bit is laughable. The first part, I mean whatever, you expressed your idiosyncratic tastes in detail: congrats. I am sure most here agree with you and pat you on the back. But let's be clear with what you argue:
David Bowie and Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, Dolly Parton, and Grace Jones = psychologically secure and balanced.
Traditional masculinity = intense psychological insecurity and lack of balance.
You are saying that the overwhelming majority of males are intensely insecure and psychologically unbalanced in comparison to David Bowie, Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, Dolly Parton, and Grace Jones.
“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, 1984
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
― George Orwell, 1984
She spoke about not liking machismo chest-thumping from anyone, be they a cis-man, trans man, or lesbian.
Also, an overwhelming amount of men don't ascribe to the machismo, chest-thumping form of masculinity that she discussed. Traditional masculinity wasn't being hated on. No one is hating on traditionally masculine men. Hyper-masculine, "i can't control my rage/hormones/dick/etc because I'm a man" masculinity? Sure. And quite frankly, that kind of hyper-masculine thought and presentation does a huge disservice to men as a group. It's like that excuse "boys will be boys" when it's found out that a few guys on the football team raped a girl. It's saying "men have no moral compass, so we can't expect any better from them". That's pretty sad.
Embrace your traditional masculinity! open a door for someone. Pick up a check for someone. Work on a car and get greasy. Go hunting. Be the breadwinner if you like. Hell, drink an old-fashioned while your lady makes dinner. But don't confuse "traditional masculinity" with "machismo".
I'm going to assume your response isn't a meta joke about insecurity.
Yes, let's be clear on what I argue: "NOT appealing is thoughtless, chest thumping machismo, whether exhibited by cis or trans men, lesbians, whoever. I find this particular gender expression often belies an intense insecurity."
Firstly, nowhere am I critical of "traditional masculinity". The "overwhelming majority" of men I meet in the world are NOT macho chest thumpers as I describe. Erin happens to be spot on- "Hyper-masculine, "i can't control my rage/hormones/dick/etc because I'm a man" masculinity" is what I find unappealing.
Secondly, I was careful to qualify my statement as an opinion/observation ("I find..."), I was attempting no statement of fact. To call my opinion nonsense, preposterous, and laughable is quite dismissive and condescending, don't you think? Also, bad argumentative form.
Thirdly, your interpretation of my statement constitutes a logical fallacy, it's a non-sequitur. I state that I find machismo to often indicate insecurity, but it just does not follow that I find non-macho representations to indicate emotional security and stability. I made no such comparison. I'll clarify further:
A. I find "gender-benders" like David Bowie et al sexy - TRUE
B. I find machismo unappealing, and I have observed that it often indicates insecurity - TRUE
C. I find David Bowie et al to be paragons of emotional security/stability - FALSE
A + B DOES NOT EQUAL C
(2+2 does not equal 5 either)
Lastly, I find your invocation of Orwell...perplexing. Am I to understand that you see my statement of personal taste and/or my interpretation of gender constructs as a threat to freedom of thought? Or that I'm cynically trying to re-arrange others' interpretations of reality?
“Be careful--with quotations, you can damn anything.”
― André Malraux
“Quotations are useful in periods of ignorance or obscurantist beliefs.”
― Guy Debord
But that last bit is laughable. The first part, I mean whatever, you expressed your idiosyncratic tastes in detail: congrats. I am sure most here agree with you and pat you on the back. But let's be clear with what you argue:
David Bowie and Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, Dolly Parton, and Grace Jones = psychologically secure and balanced.
Traditional masculinity = intense psychological insecurity and lack of balance.
You are saying that the overwhelming majority of males are intensely insecure and psychologically unbalanced in comparison to David Bowie, Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, Dolly Parton, and Grace Jones.
“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, 1984
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
― George Orwell, 1984
And a fucking great smack down!
What you argue is all well and good. You claim to lay out a carefully constructed content neutral list of what you find sexually appealing about androgyny. But why then do you use the term "subversion"? This is about androgyny no? What was the point of mentioning "insecurity"? Why did you go into the "why" of what you find appealing if this was just a content neutral list?
If you like "gender subversion", what is being subverted?
Is that subversion you like content neutral?
What is more appropriate than to quote Orwell's 1984 in a thread about subversion? Quotes can be misused, but so can all useful things. Did I misuse those quotes?
I am only ever meta on accident and I actually do think that "gender subversion" or whatever you want to call it is preposterous, nonsensical and dangerous because it is a social solvent.
And if you are a subversive (gender or otherwise), yes, I think you are trying to rearrange other's interpretation of reality. What else is subversion (content neutral or otherwise)
I'm going to speak to this from a highly personal standpoint, as gender-fuckery/gender-fullness/gender fluidity are part of my daily life. Most of this was formed during my teens and 20's and has a lot to do with coming to terms with femininity and fatness. Cultural moirés had me believe that i could not exist as a fat person and as a feminine woman. I struggled with my gender presentation partly because normative femininity was denied to me due to my body type, and partly because I didn't have a way to talk about my sexuality (when "gay", "straight", and "bisexual" were my only options in the early 2000s, discovering "queer", "sapiosexual", and "pansexual" were saving graces). Being 5'10" and fat doesn't lend itself to the stereotypically feminine after all, and in my early teens my clothing choices came almost exclusively from the men's department. That struggle, once rectified, brought forth the combination that I present as now, and it's been successful both in my personal life and in my professional life. Men's clothing is still a staple in my wardrobe. My taste was obviously influenced by the struggle I encountered as a teen, but now that I'm aware of gender as play, my selections are intentional. It's still a bitch to wear men's clothing when you've got big boobs, though.
One can work the spectrum of genderfluidness should one choose to do so. While in my everyday life i present from pretty butch to high-femme, in my professional life I stick to the femme/high-femme side of androgyny. Wherever on the scale i fall on any given day, my presentation definitely identifies me as "not straight" according to the current cultural lexicon. There's a "thing" known as "queer hair", and i've got it. My choice to keep some body hair while reducing or eliminating other body hair is often identified as a "queer thing"- it fucks with preconceived notions as to what femininity and masculinity are. The way I truly like to fuck, both personally and professionally, is anything but "heteronormative" or "straight", even if the pairing happens to be a heterosexual one. Like Tori, little turns me on as much as ravishing an ass, except maybe for turning my partners into objects for my personal use and gratification. Again, not very "feminine" things for me to get turned on by.
So for me, androgyny is the outwardly visual part of my "queerness" and sliding around in genferfluidity brings me a lot of joy. I'm highly attracted to those who are into subversion, and in my personal experience, androgyny is a definite flag for that.
I really enjoyed reading about your trajectory. Stimulating in all sorts of ways. Also, you a hot queer. (Apologies my response isn't more thoughtful, all my energy went into addressing the "preposterousness" of my personal tastes.)
Wow- that's hot!! And I appreciate it.
I love your story, Erin.
it's always such an awesome event when people can connect about issues like this. 
My taste is not the same as yours. Who cares? Everyone is wired differently. So we are turned on by different things. You like what you like. I like what I like. It's all good. The only thing that isn't good is judging someone else's preferences.
If someone came on here and made an OP about how they didn't care for "masculine looking women" and then a bunch of guys piled on agreeing how they didn't like it, THAT would be judgmental.
This was hardly the case, the OP asked if guys liked that look and most of us answered honestly about our own tastes, it appears that the people trying to justify their taste in androgynous sexual partners are the ones going down the judgmental route. As if their taste makes them "open minded" while the rest of us old fuddy duddies are living in the stone age. They are the ones judging, not the rest of us, we are simply speaking to our own tastes.
I thought it was obvious my "judgmental" comment wasn't directed at you. Just to clarify, I like the same kind of women you do and "androgynous" isn't it. So, of course it's fine with me if you prefer to avoid androgynous as long as you don't judge people who like that look. And you did not do that.
PS: Have I got a goil 4 U!
We definitely have a lot in common. Nothing sexier than gender play. Nothing more revolutionary, either.
Have a serious crush on Papicock in SF (bad quality video, but you get the idea):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJTJEsyWiMY
Two of my faves:
-- Modified on 9/21/2015 9:05:20 AM
Just watched the video and LOLed. Great start to my Monday...well done Sarah.
-- Modified on 9/21/2015 7:10:57 AM
Big Buck fan. Not familiar with the lovely lady though, who is she?
Other ATFs are Juliette Stray and Bailey Jay.
Nicely muscled body, tats and a nice big clit to play with. And she is gorgeous.
-- Modified on 9/21/2015 11:49:53 AM
I've had a crush on her for years. Sadly, I think she's no longer around. She used to be a provider way back when.
Like the time he ran a campaign to profit off of trans folx raising money for surgeries and asked them to create art for free to sell on his site... for their surgeries... off of which he was making money...
Or meeting him in person a couple times. Sexy man, bad politics.
Don't tell me he's a dick!! I keep hearing bad things about people I fantasize about sexually. It's ruining my wank time!! I seriously have lost my ability to masturbate to Sean Connery, Johnny Depp and David Draiman over shite I've heard. 
As they say, never meet your heroes. Should be- never meet the people you wank over. lol!!
Seren Love, and sadly she's no longer around. Perhaps she's moved on in life. Papicock is the guy in the video- he's a drag king. The lady he's performing with is his girlfriend, and her name is iCandy. He's amazingly sexy. Oooooozes sexiness. I wish there were a better video of them performing.
I'm of the camp that sees gender as performance, gender being the arbitrary cultural norms assigned to the sexes, as opposed to biologic sex (which itself is proving to be more mutable and slippery a concept the more we progress in our understanding of biology). To varying degrees of conscious thought, we choose to adhere to gender norms based on societal influence/pressure and personal taste. I've always been very attracted to subversion, skepticism, and the active questioning of received wisdom, so I find intentional gender fuckery intoxicating.
Grace Jones is amazing to look at, and her entire give-zero-fucks Amazon schtick delights me. I think she scares many people at least partially because her gender performance is so outside the norm and hard to classify according to traditional categories. I really love the way Conchita Wurst thoroughly confused everybody by being traditionally feminine hi glam with a full beard. Ruby Rose is a little boring in this way because her thing is always very pretty but it stops at mere appearances...she's got short hair and sometimes wears jeans and less makeup, BFD. David Bowie and Marlene Deitrich, Boy George, Annie Lennox, Prince, Pete Burns, etc. all have done some incredibly sexy gender play and I have a hard on for all of them.
Also irresistible to me are intentionally hyper feminine performances- Dolly Parton, Dita Von Teese, and many hi glam drag queens come to mind.
NOT appealing is thoughtless, chest thumping machismo, whether exhibited by cis or trans men, lesbians, whoever. I find this particular gender expression often belies an intense insecurity.
Can you tell I really like this topic, and have strong opinions on the matter? Thanks for the thought provoking question!
(and yes, I am a provider, hence 'market research.') Tori, Erin, Inari, we'll be in touch. ;P
-- Modified on 9/20/2015 6:46:01 PM
If so, I'm cool with it...to a point. The weird thing about me, is it doesn't matter if she's a "natural born woman" or a TS...either way, she's got to look very feminine and girly-girl. It's more important with the transsexuals I see, but even the natural-borns are going to be more attractive to me the more girly they look.
While more folx (both trans and non-binary/genderqueer identified) are expressing outside of the traditional gender binary, trans women still have a huge stake in 'passing' as women. Almost 20 trans women have been murdered just this year. I think a lot about AFAB (assigned female at birth) privilege in my gender-play and ability to be fluid or androgynous without much more repercussions than a few ignorant or nasty comments. Also aware of thin privilege, as androgyny is so often conflated with thinness (thank you Erin for bringing this up!)