Well, gumby400,
I guess it's either "lower your expectations" or "be honest." I vote for honesty. That always lets the other person to take a stand. And allowing someone to do so is most unselfish.
From a marital therapist who WANTS her husband to tell her if she looks fat in a dress, so she can go change quickly, LOL,
the Love Goddess
Maybe more philosopho-sexual but I'm wondering how many people engage in the hobby as a way to keep anxiety or depression at bay. It would seem that a regular bump of the ol' serotonin/dopamine/oxytocin/endorphin cocktail would be a decent treatment for depression or anxiety but it could also easily become jsut a band-aid on a bigger problem. I could easily see myself using the hobby to avoid dealing with deeper existential issues and the accompanying fear and depression.
LG, in your professional experience, do you think many people in the hobby are using it to avoid facing soem tough interpersonal issues?
Sorry if this is too eggheady but I yam what I yam.
MANY people, wormwood,
Or just SOME people? I think the final answer will be available in my study somewhere around the middle-end of 2009. Until then, I'd say that the hobbying is NOT used by a majority to "avoid facing some tough interpersonal issues." This statement is so wide that it's a catch-all for a lot of things. I mean, isn't everything more or less "interpersonal?"
Hobbying, when engaged in by people who are clinically anxious and depressed, is not really a main exhibiting symptom of such emotions. I truly believe it's a minority of individuals who use hobbying to "avoid" those feelings, as most people quickly realize that hobbying just makes you poorer and not necessarily happier if you hobby and are diagnosable with these mood disorders. But there is a minority of individuals who engage in compulsive behavior, and hobbying may be one of those behaviors.
I do believe, however, that many MARRIED hobbyists avoid dealing with "tough partner issues" and that hobbying is a way to escape feeling sexual hunger or even starvation from lack of physical affection and contact normally given by a partner. Instead of processing these issues with a partner - even though it can get ridiculously tough - many hobbyists would rather leave the SO be, and go elsewhere for what they need.
On a personal note, I'd say marriage is way overrated and that many people who stay married ought to get divorces and live on their own for a while. But most people have EXISTENTIAL fear of alone-ness, fear that they'll never meet someone else, fear of poverty, fear of all sorts of things. And that's why many couples hang on to each other and torture each other in the most exquisite ways possible. Ever see "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" Now there's a couple that should have just split up before they signed their marriage vows. But hey, I understand: alimony, child support, splitting up a house - it can get very expensive. So to avoid this, many men have a lousy sex/love life at home, and engage with escorts instead. And the women are OK, as long as they don't know and can go buy shoes and handbags instead.
So the thing with "anxiety and depression" is most likely in the minority. Try "marriage malaise" instead and you'll get a huge poll of people.
The campus radical,
Love Goddess
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
One thing that will change my initial post a bit- I meant intrapersonal rather than interpersonal.
that I'll be getting my kicks on the weekend.
My job is very high pressure and nothing relieves the pressure like a wonderful date.
I'm not sure sometimes if this is abnormal or not, but it works for me.
And never mind Dick and Liz in Virginia Woolf. Did you ever catch Sid and Nancy? Now there was a battle of the sexes.
ive wondered about this for years. i love variety and when im anxious or down, i try to hook up with an asian or black woman. i like being with someone different. i think its a little compulsion and maybe it has something to do with being divorced, but ive always felt that sex is healthy and natural and variety is the spice of life. it might be irresponsible, but i agree its like getting the car washed- for me its a purchased service. even when i find a favorite, i still like variety. the only thing that i dont like is its commercial. im glad to see that im not alone in wondering about this.
Interesting topic! One that I spend much time thinking on. I think LG has some good points. I have some different views; I'm not really "disagreeing" with her as much as I feel compelled to use my own case as a sort of counter-example.
I'm a married hobbyist. Hobbying is not my way of avoiding my marital issues; I've tried for at least half of my 20 year marriage to deal with our emotional and sexual issues. Occasional hobbying and a few "side-relationships" over the past few years (mostly with married women) has been a conscious decision, and my way of DEALING with different levels of sex drive and sexual curiosity than my wife. It was not my first course of action. I continue to work on things at home. And consciously choose to supplement my sexual endeavors outside of it.
As for "fear" of breaking off my marriage due to fear of poverty and "alone-ness".... well, that is not "it" for me. That is not why I CHOOSE to stay married either. I'm smart enough to know that -- in any relationship -- you'll have to take some bad with the good. Work, familial relations, other community activities... there is no one endeavor that is 100% joy and light. (Except my session with a provider this week... but I digress.) That is NOT the same as "torturing each other".
My point being: my wife is not "evil enough" for me to leave her... and she'd have to be pretty darn evil for me to inflict a broken home on my children. My finances are not great now, they would be worse if I split up. I'm not "fearful"... I'm being practical. And, in the end, I couldn't live with myself for being so selfish to leave my wife because she can't give me a good blow job, or won't have sex with me in the shower.
I don't expect my wife to fix my car, paint my house, or re-carpet my basement. Those are all services I can hire, without questioning the fact that I have a basically functional, basically happy marriage. And if I decide to seek the services of a provider from time to time -- as a married hobbyist -- what is the fundamental difference?
-- Gumby
Honest enough, gumby400,
But why don't you ask your wife if SHE can help in fixing your sex life, so that you don't have to hire a provider "from time to time?" Do you think your wife would agree that you have a "basically functional, basically happy marriage" if she knew what you are up to? The problem is that men and women expect different things out of marriage - and I think we all know more or less what those things are, so I don't need to write about them here and now.
But in my practice and in "real life," I believe that this is why many women initiate divorce after all. They "find out" that the husband has been sexing it up elsewhere and can't take it.
My personal problem with marriage is that it contains a promise that involves fidelity - and I think it's very difficult for 50% of the married population to stay "faithful." But being honest about it seems even more difficult. Brave is the man who tells his wife or SO "I love you, but we're not having enough/the kind of sex I need, so I'm going to get it elsewhere." Of course, that would give the wife a chance to decide if she wants to be the one to participate in changing their sex life or bail out. But unfortunately, such honesty and opportunity to change is usually not given or taken. Instead, partners remain silent or go behind each other's backs - and that includes women who sleep with men other than their husbands too. Or, when they "find out," all hell breaks loose and I see them on my therapeutic couch sitting away from each other like stiff book ends.
So when you say that you couldn't live with yourself "for being so selfish to leave my wife because she can't give a good blow job" - can you be unselfish enough to give her the truth, so that she can either practice the bj's or give whatever she's got to someone else?
Just a thought,
the Love Goddess
Thanks for the reply.
What follows is not a rant, not a retort. Just me pouring out my heart.
I've asked -- for years and years -- for her to merely follow my lead with extending our creativity. I have ever so gently suggested sex in the shower, making out in the back seat in the parking lot, reading Cosmo together for some sex tips, maybe considering a sex-toy for us to share in bed. I get nowhere.
Sexually and romantically, I'm the giver -- I provide the massages, the candles, the bubble bath. Her: none of it. I give her oral and bring her to O all the time; in 20 years, I've rec'd oral from her at most maybe 20 times, to completion, maybe 3 times.
I've gone beyond the subtle cajoling, stating directly: I'm not so happy with our sex life. I'm looking for more quantity and variety. To little effect.
I've gone to the point of being VERY direct: you're not very good in bed; you need to read a book or something. I wasn't mean or accusatory. Did she rush out to buy any of a dozen books on how to give a good blow job? Or just ask me for "what I like"? No. It crushed her. Guess how much sex I got in the next two weeks: zero. That was months ago. Has she bought a book yet, or gone online, or asked ME for tips? No.
So, I think I've done an EXTRAORDINARY amount of trying to make it work in my marriage.
As for the fidelity aspect of it, yes, I'm breaking that. But that isn't solely what marriage is about, IMO. It's also about having kids and raising them in a nurturing place; we still have a financial union that is mutually beneficial; we still support each other in our jobs and community service. So why throw out the whole marriage for bad sex, if there are other mutually positive aspects to it?
Back to the honesty part of it: I believe that being 100% honest 100% of the time is -- yes -- sometimes selfish. Imagine my 100% honest replies to "Do I look fat in this dress?" "Do you mind if we watch what I want to watch?" "How was dinner?" I'm not saying I *always* lie to those questions; I can still be appreciative that she made dinner at all, and maybe mention it was a bit salty, even if it was way too salty. Am I being "unfaithful" to her when I have a heavy snack that night, because I wasn't satisfied with dinner?
We ALL balance *truth* with *tact* ALL THE TIME. Yes, I have told her: "I'm not happy with the sexual side of our relationship; let's work on it." I see nothing noble, helpful, or unselfish about adding the rest: "and until we get it cranked up a bit, I'm going to be getting some on the side." Yes, it is selfish of me to think it and do it. But nothing is made better by me *saying* it. It doesn't make anything "more unselfish".
I really really think I am being a generous, patient spouse. After years of trying every approach I could think of, I believe I am continuing to deal with the situation in the least destructive manner.
My therapists (my personal one AND my marital one) have given me a suggestion: lower my expectations. It almost makes me nauseated. No, not almost. I truly sickens me. Isn't my spouse supposed to be my closest friend, and the person I adore the most? Why on earth should I lower my expectations? (Except as a defense mechanism against unhappiness.)
Thanks for listening. I hope someone else out there can benefit from this discussion.
-- Gumby
Well, gumby400,
I guess it's either "lower your expectations" or "be honest." I vote for honesty. That always lets the other person to take a stand. And allowing someone to do so is most unselfish.
From a marital therapist who WANTS her husband to tell her if she looks fat in a dress, so she can go change quickly, LOL,
the Love Goddess
I am married, and I started hobbying to fill a void sexually. Beyond that, I love my wife.
Since I have gone to providers(2 years now) sex with both my providers, and surprisingly my wife has improved. I also have better stamina than I ever had before hobbying.
A poor sex life with my wife was the primary reason to start hobbying, but now sex with providers and MY WIFE has been great!
Funny how things work out.
I think your choice of words leaves a lot to interpretation here. I hobby because I am in a marriage that does not fulfill my sexual or emotional needs and hasn't for quite a while. Now, am I avoiding my interpersonal issues by doing this? Some would probably say yes but my answer is no, I am DEALING with the issue by engaging in lifestyle that makes me feel good about myself after years of feeling bad about myself.
Some day when all of my ducks are in a row my marital status will change. Honestly, I don't know if I will stop hobbying at that point or not. I have met some great ladies since I began to pursue this course and I can't see saying goodbye to any of them simply because I won't have to sneak around behind a spouses back one day...
that many couples still get a lot of mutual satisfaction from their relationship but the sexual fires are banked or burnt out. Discussing acts of infidelity openly with one's spouse, even if he/she is VERY understanding, will most likely lead to fireworks, anguish, probably a wrecked marriage. Better a less than perfect marriage than a bitter breakup and the loss of whatever was good in the relationship, IMO. In this case, honesty is not the best policy and hypocrisy is a lesser evil than the destruction of a long-lasting but imperfect marriage. And who has ever seen a perfect one anyway?
...that she wished her husband would, in her words, "just leave me alone in bed and find some ELSEWHERE!" And then she looked at me and said, "Cyndi, I mean ANYWHERE else. In fact, I wouldn't even care if he'd just pay for it, if he was careful. He's too rough for me and now that we have a great friendship and two kids, I really only want sex from him about one or two times a month, usually just before my period. My body doesn't know he had a vasectomy, so I still get horny then."
Wow. Upon further conversation, what she really wanted was for him to engage sexually elsewhere, but really didn't want for drama to visit upon their home.
She went on, and I finally realized that she was obviously desperate that he would HEAR these words. She said she hoped he'd use condoms and not fall in love with some woman and split up their marriage. She didn't want to lose him because she had a lower libido than he, either.
I don't think she could ever "sanction" his having an affair or hobbying, officially, as she said, "of course, I could never tell him any of that. He would either think I'm cheating on him already or throw it in my face if he ever WERE to have an affair with emotions. I don't want to worry about my reputation, either. (she teaches little children)
Now, I know them both very well. And she knew I used to date (and have sex with) him back in the day. And she knows my sexual voracity. So I started to take care of his needs, picking back up after 10 years. Are either of us telling her? No! But guess what? She's told me that he finally stopped harassing her all the time for sex. She's very happy that she only needs to get pounded once a month or so, and he never begs for oral anymore. He's noticed that she freely gives him backrubs and even a few happy endings recently! It's like she's rewarding him for good behavior.
I know I'm new, but I swear that I am not making any of this up. I'm just a woman who is trying to figure out which side of the provider table I should be on. (I do massage... professionally.)
But this conversation reallly struck close to home! Thanks for reading!
CyndiSmith