Or you can work your ass off. I don't like to work, but I like money and what it can buy. Case in point, I had plans to go to Costa Rica this weekend, I had a business meeting that came up so I cancelled my trip, I am also headed into the office today. I am not a workaholic like some,I don't like to work weekends. I just know what I have to do to take care of business.
Some people are not willing to do whatever it takes, and thats their perogative, but don't claim the game is rigged just because you don't want to put in the extra effort.
the distribution of the ***10-15%*** of the total wealth in this country that is owned by the middle and lower class... who wants to weight in?
It's your problem after all. Though I've lived in the US for 45 years and am a US citizen (a dual citizen, US/EU), I am moving to Germany to retire in 2010. Hopefully whoever is elected wont screw things up enough to trouble me in the interim. But, you all - enjoy!
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 11:15:43 AM
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 11:18:14 AM
is to start a business. There is no excuse for failure in this country. If a person wants it badly enough there are opportuinties galore.
People make choices in life, whether it is to drop out of school, start a family before they are prepared, major in liberal arts, and then they wonder why their lives are not more financially successful.
How many people do you know that will admit their financial problems are due to bad personal decisions? It's always someone else's fault or the system is against them, but when you point out to them how others with the no more advantages of family wealth or education make it in this this country it falls on deaf ears.
of the wealth in the US that is owned by the lower and middle class. The 80% that is owned by the super wealthy who control our businesses, media, and politics, however, is off base. Heck, the super rich even take your tax payer dollars to offset the losses they incur from trying to further addict the middle and lower class to credit.... oh, and why is it good for the economy to have credit rates at 1% when we have one of the lowest levels of savings and capitalization? Only so that the middle and lower class will buy more stuff from the super rich, and pay them for the use of the money....
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 11:37:40 AM
to remain lower or middle class. I have been as broke as anyone I have ever met(no job, no money, no car and no home) and I have risen to the point where I no longer consider myself middle class. I deal with countless people with whom I share this in common.
Just because you, through whatever career choices you have made in your life, cannot see yourself ever achieving anything above middle class doesn't mean the rest of us can't achieve higher levels of success.
I've worked with, at or near the center, there is always some crazy guy hitting it every day. A hammer. Most of these guys have been broke at some point in thier lives. Just ask em they'll be more than happy to tell you. IMO That whats makes them succeed where others may fail. They just dont fuckin quit ever.
Or you can work your ass off. I don't like to work, but I like money and what it can buy. Case in point, I had plans to go to Costa Rica this weekend, I had a business meeting that came up so I cancelled my trip, I am also headed into the office today. I am not a workaholic like some,I don't like to work weekends. I just know what I have to do to take care of business.
Some people are not willing to do whatever it takes, and thats their perogative, but don't claim the game is rigged just because you don't want to put in the extra effort.
I consider myself quite successful. I earn many many times beyond the bracket where you stop paying social security. I can have nice toys (the latest acquisition being a Porsche 997 GT3). I enjoy multi hour dates a couple of times a week. No jealousy or sense of being economically unfulfilled on my part. But that does not change the fact that you and I are living in a country with a wealth distribution profile typical of a 3rd world dictatorship. Know what? I'm not asking for anything I have not earned - don't even want it. But I would like to live in a country where nobody is above the law, nobody has the power to make decisions in their own interests that are devastating to multitudes of others at a whim. To me, it is a matter of principle.
You and I are proof of my argument. Unlike socialist economies or even worse communist ones, we are free to make we want of ourselves. If you say that a seven digit income is still the leftovers from the uberwealthy than so be it. I am happy about what I have achieved, I feel no jealousy for those that have outachieved me.
The game here in the US is as fair as it gets. Name another country on earth that gives the little guy the opportunities we have here. It's not perfect, but our capitalist system is worlds more fair than the "equal opportunity" of socialism.
If you want an even better example, look to Obama. The very fact that he is on the verge of becoming the most powerful person on the planet speaks volumes as to the fairness of our system. The fact that if he is elected he will set us back decades is irrelevant to that fact.
"you are free to compete for your share of the 10-15%"
I am simply disputing your idea that I am competing for the "leftovers". You may be competing for the 10-15% that you see on the table, I don't see it that way. Nothing personal about it.
BTW Do you see yourself as middle class?
I've been on a fallacy of composition kick lately.
Unless wealth is somehow distributed evenly, it will always be the case that some people are lower, middle, or upper class. Some individuals may be able to exhibit social mobility but that's completely beside the point when addressing systemic problems related to maldistribution of wealth.
It really doesn't matter at all to anyone but you that you've been able to rise from poverty to wealth mainly as a result of your own efforts. Your personal experience is a data sample of one and data samples that small are poor foundations for public policy.
You don't make important business decisions with a data sample of one, do you?
When people like yourself claim otherwise.
As I also said in my post I know many others who have also risen well above middle class through their own efforts. My data may be anecdotal, but it's hardly a data sample of one.
Have you ever allowed for the possibility that people just aren't equal. Some people make bad decisions, you don't get mulligans in the game of life. Trying to pretend that life is fair will be the ruin of this country, the rest of the world is playing for keeps against us.
Our nation is not the richest in natural resources yet we are by far the most powerful and wealthy country in the world. Something about our system works, changing our system to imitate the countries that are well behind us makes no sense to me.
I've never said that individuals can't work hard and rise above middle class and I have a great deal of respect for people who do. You have me confused with someone else on that point.
As for the data sample, whether it's one or 30, statistically that is meaningless and statistics are absolutely necessary when trying to deal with systems. I'll ask my question again. Would you make important business decisions based on the experiences of a few other people or would you rely more on solid financial and market data? Which approach is more sound and more likely to achieve a good result?
Jezus, Gambler! I taught for 30 years. If anyone knows that people aren't equal, it's me!!!
We are collectively the richest and most powerful nation on the planet. I'd like for that to continue which is why i firmly believe we need to make the system work better. One of the big flaws in the system, as I've said ad nauseum, is its tendency to concentrate wealth which leads to bubbles which leads to crashes. We know how to counteract that tendency but wealthy people seem unwilling to make the small sacrifices necessary to support the system which made them wealthy.
Shouldn't the richest and most powerful nation on the planet also have the lowest infant mortality rate? The highest literacy rate? The longest life expectancy? Be the happiest? The fact that the US lags far behind other nations in these categories is mighty good evidence that the system also has some very significant flaws. I'm not talking about implementing welfare programs, I'm talking about things like actually bringing our education system into the 21st century so more young people do have a chance to do what you've done, etc.
Nobody's talking about adopting a Scandinavian style socialist system. All they are talking about is a very modest increase in taxes for the wealthiest Americans so that wealth may be distributed a little more equitably rather than looking like Mexico or Russia.
Why do you hate America so much that you;re unwilling to do your part to help make the system work better for all Americans?
That last part is kidding, of course.
There are people that will pull the cart if incentives are offered.
There are people that will really pull the cart and will make there own incentives.
There are people that will get back in the cart if not supervised.
And then there are people who will never get out of the cart.
That's why the programs which accomplish the redistribution need to be continuous like the progressive income tax, the estate tax, unemployment insurance, student loans and grants.
We know absolutely that, in the absence of these types of programs, wealth will be concentrated in fewer and fewer hands until the system fails. Why do you want that to happen?
Why do you also hate America?
The only way for those who are wealthy to be so, is for the masses to NOT be so. Someone has to work the till for minimum wage.
Yes, some choose to drop out of school, start a family too early, major in liberal arts, etc...
and some have schizoprhenia (a good friend of mine),
some may be brittle diabetic with the added insult of a degenerative immune disorder that causes the body to attack it's own joint tissues (another good friend of mine),
some had a cerebral aneurism and no medical insurance (my mother),
a husband who racked up the credit debt and split town, leaving few options other than bankruptcy (a very much loved good friend),
several significant back injuries that preclude most forms of productive employment (my little brother);
breast cancer diagnosis in the early 20's (a cousin);
a $32k bill from a "simple" case of appendicitis,
a missing leg and serious internal injuries (not to mention, a life of excruciating physical pain and/or narcotic medications) after being hit by a drunk driver with no insurance (a past neighbor)...
etc, etc
If you don't see the exceptions that are legitimate reasons for those who have not "made it" in life, then you are simply not looking. I barely contribute to these threads because I get so fucking pissed off every time I hear those who are more fortunate in life blaming the victims in our society, and those who like to call them lazy fucks who CHOOSE their lot out of laziness or love of the 40oz. are most heinous to me. Seriously, who would consciously choose to be depressed and in chronic pain for a measley $600-$800 allowance each month? Sure, maybe a couple.
Tell you what - take a month and do some volunteer work at your local homeless shelter. Aide a lawyer doing work for those on SSI and disability. Spend some time doing crisis counseling for those who have had their sense of identity shattered via violent abuse and assault. Do SOMETHING (not just write a god damned check) to share your life with the less fortunate... then get back to me about how easy it is, and how there is no excuse.
I'm one of the small fraction of ladies that I know who have chosen consciously to be in this business for the many opportunities that it affords. Even so, I have to say that the only way I made it where I am today, in the healthy and happy manner that I find myself - is due to those I've had the fortune to meet who have been treasures to me in my life. Many thanks to my high school principal who wrote my glowing (and much deserved!) college recommendation despite my GPA. To the librarian in my junior high who pushed my reading skills to higher and higher levels. To the 5th grade teacher who believed in my creative writing abilities and sponsored me to write and physically produce my first book. To the personal calculus tutor who believed in my innate mental agilities. To the lovely gay man who owned the vintage clothing store down the street, who taught me so much about compassion and passion. To the homeless man who came to pick up the used birdseed every weekend, who showed me that there are other ways to view and to live our lives. To the supervisor who allowed me paid time to explore other career options. To the program that enabled my earliest work-study experiences. And I could go on and on and on. Essentially, I have been very blessed, very fortunate. Not everyone is.
If you really think you got where you are on your own,
you are likely missing out on a whole heaping soul warming amount of gratitude to those around you.
And without all that other bs - starting a successful business often requires the up front capital. Some people have trouble finding that.
.02 from your local NorthWest bleeding heart liberal
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 9:41:18 PM
That school and community is still in the 1960s, and is about as liberal/left leaning as you can get. If you are going to troll the California University system, try Stanford, UCLA, CalTech for a bit more moderate view.
a portion or all of my 'share', via absorption of 401Ks into the SSIC system.
I've never earned more than the social security income cap, but I've accumulated a tidy sum in my 401K through hard work and thrift. Now I see plans being looked at curiously by Dems that would have me sharing my 'good fortune' (as I'm sure they'll put it) with those 'less fortunate ones'. A past Dem leader (name escapes me, he ran for President in 90's) from St Lous call my situation as 'A Winner in Life's Lottery'.
I DO realize BHO hasn't talked about this, but this IS the direction they are planning to take us.
owned by the middle class. That way we are too absorbed to pay attention to their 80%!
See my comments below and 4 days ago. I do agree that accumulation of wealth in too large a proportion can/might be a terrible thing, but when I pointed out a side issue, you dismissed my concerns (using the same 'excuse' as you used previuosly) by saying that I was falling into the hands of 'my owners'.
Now that would be SO unpopular at the least. BTW, the guy's name was Gephardt.
listening to economists proposing these ideas?
Enacting a "tax" on 401k's will be VERY unpopular with all involved.
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 2:02:30 PM
I feel safer now. Zin says it can't happen.
for an atheist he has no problem taking things on pure faith alone. He also seems to think he can read the minds of those he supports. Somehow he believes his insight into the minds of politicians are more accurate than their words, or their actions.
When everybody else here is whining. How much things can change in two years.
I pay more attention to what the man says and more importantly what the man's actions have been in the past.
This new and improved, centrist sounding Obama is not the man who has marched lock step with Pelosi/Reid throughout the entirety of his brief career in the Senate.
Most of them won't come to pass. Despite what you've led yourself to believe, Obama, Pelosi and Reid aren't communists.
Few things are going to be more unpopular than taxing SAVINGS and putting them into social security. A reverse of Dubya's plan, I notice. No, I don't think liberals will support it.
It's not my fault that you're getting hysterical with fear.
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 6:04:56 PM
How in the world can you think that RESPONDING to the contents of a Congressional hearing is RANDOM?
If the Dem majorities become too great they will be BHO's biggest problem, that's assuming he actually tries to govern from the center.
or have you been drinking the koolaid too?
What has he ever "DONE" to make you think he will even attempt to "govern from the center" I am not talking about his campaign rhetoric, I am talking about actual actions.
Nothing the man has ever done gives me the slightest hope that he will attempt to govern fromt the center.
we're still fucked.
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 10:27:32 PM
I just couldn't resist pointing out what an uberlefty he really is. Apparently all those countless millions of dollars he's spent reinventing himself have paid off. Most people believe that the Obama of the last month or two is the real Obama. I think you and I know better.
For all the good it'll do us. I think we are fucked my friend, and so is the country. I am poised to have my best year ever in 2009, I just hope I am allowed to keep enough of it to buy a nice little island somewhere warm with plenty of chicas to keep my occupied.
In determining the effect on people, you have to consider lost income.
For example, I have a friend who is a personal trainer. He stands to gain $1,000 per year. However, his clients are mostly in the $200 range. They pay him $50 per hour, and go once or twice a week. This is from their "discretionary" money. If he loses one client who sees him once a week, he is down $2,500, for a net loss of $1,500 per year. If he loses more than one client it gets worse.
Many of my friends are in "service" areas that depend on people earning a lot of money having that money to spend. Hopefully, they won't have to cut back anywhere.
More moderately wealthy people will lead to more clients. In fact your friend may be able start his own chain and realize his dream instead of kissing a select few asses.
Im thinking about it myself. Mobamacize. The change in you, you can believe in.
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 1:10:21 PM
Most of the other people who are getting the $1,000 are probably not potential clients. For example, if someone is making $57,000, and gets his extra $1K. How much of that is he going to spend on personal trainers or similar activities.
Indeed, if the extra $1K from 75 would push people into the level of being his clients, he would have more people under the 200 level now.
This is very much like the extra tax on yachts that Carter imposed. It didn't raise any more money for the feds to use or redistribute. But it did destroy a lot of businesses that sold yahcts or goods and services used in the boating industry. The rich were hurt the least. The middle class workers took it in a rather personal place.
BTW, this is typical class warfare - resentment language. My friend isn't "kissing asses." He works with people he likes, for the most part. There is nothing degrading or humiliating about the work that he does. I am in the service area myself, and don't think of my life as "kissing asses."
-- Modified on 11/2/2008 1:53:09 PM
Who could then afford a trainer.
If you're just talking about people who make $250 thousand, then I could see where there would be some chance of loss, but that top 5 percent goes up so high. I can't see there being so much a cut in spending among them.
1) They don’t publish dollar amounts that define well enough the thresholds of the various percentiles.
I dare say that I am a member of the ‘super wealthy’ as you’ve defined it. And yet I’ve never received a paycheck that did NOT have SSIC payments withheld.
2) They don’t publish dollar amounts that indicate the overall size and growth in the so called pie.
I’m not claiming that this article’s figures are incorrect. I am saying that they are not complete. I agree that too great a difference of wealth is a bad thing. Too little a difference is also very bad. I do not know all the dynamics that define good and excellent ratios. Optimization of the economic forces that would help define the best ratios is a subject that goes way beyond this article. Probably a third failing of this article is that it doesn’t do an adequate job (if any) of demonstrating the negative outcome from that which it criticizes.
You and I started this discussion only 4 days ago, but you abandoned the thread (I guess it fell off the page).