Everything I've said within this exchange has been completely devoid of emotion.
I never said that you said "all." What I questioned you about was your insinuations/accusations towards individual female posters on this board, as well as some of your generalizations. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I hate this topic. If I hated it, I'd stay out of it. And it's not "baiting" when I inserted myself into the conversation. Why would you need me to prove your point for you? I don't even know what your point is.
Posted By: JackDunphy
Christ Tobi, I even said "just a hunch" and "maybe" and "it's been my "experience" to even further prove I didn't know fact certain what every girl does. Never claimed to either. That was you and plants twisting and distorting what I said.
Look I can't blame you for trying. I knew what I said and I baited you into finding posts to prove MY point for me and you did so.
You, plants and a few others here hate this topic and thus you don't argue from a logical position but from a highly emotional one. Never a good thing.
Normally I wouldn't have even responded to something so obviously factually false but I actually respect you as I have stated before and you and I have had good debates on topics where we at least saw each other's points.
Sorry for starting another thread but that other thread has so many replies that I needed to buy another screen to see the replies on the far right side. Beyond that, I replied last night but it never made it onto the thread because I used a lady's name. Funny, others have mentioned the name repeatedly and their posts have made it through moderation with no problem. Anyway, I think this is a meaningful topic.
First of all, I really did enjoy the discussion because some of the replies from our lady friends did make me think about certain things that I had never stopped to consider. Second, although my approach may differ from them, I truly do appreciate the replies from GaG, JD and the good Dr.
Here is a fact, I am a professional and about 10 years ago I took one of those business coaching programs, it cost me about 25K (see, I overpay for everything!). Actually, it cost a lot more because every weekend retreat away from home was an opportunity to hobby, LOL! I paid that amount of money for basically one key lesson, one that I already knew: would I rather service three clients for X dollars or would I rather service two clients for X dollars? The answer is obvious, I want to keep my income at a certain level but I want time to do all the other things I want to do in life, and therefore, I want to maximize my income per client. When I am asked for a discount, I politely decline, and if the client insists, I will give him/her/it some version of "fuck-off."
My clients, particularly my corporate clients from which I derive 80% of my income, all travel in the same circle. Even the individual clients travel in the same circles because I offer my services to a couple of very niche industries. If I give one client a discount, I am fucked, I have just diluted my earning potential and my brand. I also do not want a client to talk to another and then find out that I charged them X while they paid Y (I referenced the Carolinas example on TER which is why I assume my reply did not make it through). Suffice it to say that the same analysis holds true for the ladies here, this community talks and it is simply not a good idea for them to agree to discounts.
Yes, when I first started I did give discounts here and there, after all, if the choice is between keeping the lights on and feeding myself versus telling a client to fuck-off, the smart choice seemed to be taking the haircut on the fees and not letting the potential client walk away. Truth be told, in almost every single instance in which I gave a discount I lived to regret it for one reason or another. Then the internet came, I realized how many of my clients knew each other that led me to pledge to myself to never do that shit again.
I am not saying ladies should not offer discounts, I am not saying that they are not good at business, I am not demeaning their ability to think, I personally don't see the benefit for an established lady to give a discount. Notice the qualification there, if a lady is starting, if she has not have a solid book of business, I can see a colorable argument for offering the discounts while things get off the ground. I would also agree that if a client and a lady see each other very often and they both enjoy each other's company, which presumably they would if they see each other all the time, it may make sense to negotiate for both parties. The client is rewarded for his loyalty and the lady pays a little for the certainty of knowing that every few days or weeks she has some money coming in from somebody she knows well and does not have to worry about in terms of safety, etc. etc. etc.
This is not a shot at you guys, particularly JD who made the comment about a certain amount being nothing to him, I much prefer a person I disagree with who is a straight shooter to some limp-dicked asshole who is PC and tells people what they like to hear, but this is a setting in which I do not enjoy cutting into the margins of the person providing me with the services/goods. You know, if we have the money, and if a few hundred dollars here and there don't really matter in my life, there is no joy for me in getting the lady to cut a certain percentage of her fee for such a personal service that I enjoy so much.
With that said, have a good weekend, I have a flight to catch to Vegas, he, he, he...
For example: she advertises no greek, but has a great time with one guy and decides "for him, why not?" He can't help but brag and all of sudden all of the greed studs are lining up for appointments. Same with discounts and negotiated rates - word gets out and all the misers and bargain-hunters start a-drooling.
What JD isn't acknowledging is that for every good-faith, "win/win" offer, there are also a bunch of dudes who get off on trying to get one over her.
If it's in a review..that's something that gals can dispute (using your Greek example) assuming it's NOT on their profile page. If the dude is going on his local board saying that he did Greek with HighEndHilda...easy enough for Hilda to have her lap dogs attack the moron for bloviating bullshit, whether it is or not.
As for the win/win...I also don't see where some dudes are publicly naming HighEndHilda is cutting only "him" a deal.
I think what you have is simply folks who like to post up shit...see how others reply. The final result is how a reader will interpret any public posts is entirely on them.
I don't agree that "word gets around fast", let alone that's why a few loud gals on the GD or NB board are so defensive. Those couple of gals like to argue a point that is simply something that isn't winnable. The comments coming from posters like myself, Jack and a few others simply are there to refute the "never negotiate" mantra that those couple of gals like to invoke.
As the OP discussed, he has actually spent time and money to understand the metrics of marketing. I doubt there is more than a few gals in all of TERLand...or even HookerLand that have spent $ 25...let alone $ 25k to learn how or why market forces are characterized.
Seems it's just easier to look at a checkbook and decide if she needs a few bucks today to pay rent. And depending on the "offers" out there...she'll do what she needs today to cover that rent.
It's a formula that many businesses of all types and size operate with. Some are successful that way...most end up hiring an asswipe like me to bail them out.
When I do BK or ABC work...I don't negotiate either LOL Oh...and I get my payment(s) up front. Even with court ordered payments scheduled I've seen some "professionals" still take it on the chin in that world.
Posted By: cocktail-party
For example: she advertises no greek, but has a great time with one guy and decides "for him, why not?" He can't help but brag and all of sudden all of the greed studs are lining up for appointments. Same with discounts and negotiated rates - word gets out and all the misers and bargain-hunters start a-drooling.
What JD isn't acknowledging is that for every good-faith, "win/win" offer, there are also a bunch of dudes who get off on trying to get one over her.
If I offer, and the girl takes $1500 when her website states $2000 for that amount of time, you, as well as many of the ladies who publicly offer their displeasure see that as a $500 loss, or as you put it, "cutting into their margins."
I see it, and the girls who accept see it, as a $1500 gain.
I do not lock myself into any one girl. EVER. I get quotes from them, decide who I want to see based on pics, reviews, guys I know bc, how loose they are with their clock, and, of course, price.
Look at it this way. If a girl was sitting at home instead of working p4p one night and my $1500 offer comes floating into her mailbox, do you really think a gal with rent due, car payment, insurance bills, child care bills, etc really thinks she is losing $500???
I can most assure you she does not. The girls I see are sweet, fun and smart business girls.
I believe women know what is in there best interests better than you and I, and better than some hookers who profess they NEVER negotiate....ahem.
The girls here are small business owners. They don't want it "out" there that they haggle. I get it. But my job isn't to protect their business model. The point of TER is to share info, FACTUAL info, among the members about the hobby. If this pisses some girls off, so be it.
Another point. Many girls will tell you they don't like guys who linger, or overstay their visit. Why? They are business people. That's why. They want that out there, so guys don't infringe on their time, profit, etc. Ok, fair enough.
But then those same girls who claim its a business, run around with their hair on fire if they receive a lower offer than they ask. Sorry, but they cant have it both ways.
They cant claim to have all the positives of calling it a business and none of the so called negatives. One of those negatives is having to deal with below website quoted offers. Oh the horrors of that! LOL
Can you imagine being so offended that someone offered you $1500 or $2000 for your time?
You dont see many girls here complaining b/c they know what goes on bcd and by bc. They know that negotiating helps their bottom line, image and rep bc.
All the bloviating you see the gals do here on this topic is just a dog and pony show because they are bored or they so desperately want to protect their brand. They really need to get over it and just accept the way a free market system works.
I like watching these gals back themselves in a corner LOL
You also know that nothing has been cleared up.
Want to place the O/U that this topic comes up 7 more times over the next 3 months?
Posted By: JackDunphy
If I offer, and the girl takes $1500 when her website states $2000 for that amount of time, you, as well as many of the ladies who publicly offer their displeasure see that as a $500 loss, or as you put it, "cutting into their margins."
I see it, and the girls who accept see it, as a $1500 gain.
I do not lock myself into any one girl. EVER. I get quotes from them, decide who I want to see based on pics, reviews, guys I know bc, how loose they are with their clock, and, of course, price.
Look at it this way. If a girl was sitting at home instead of working p4p one night and my $1500 offer comes floating into her mailbox, do you really think a gal with rent due, car payment, insurance bills, child care bills, etc really thinks she is losing $500???
I can most assure you she does not. The girls I see are sweet, fun and smart business girls.
I believe women know what is in there best interests better than you and I, and better than some hookers who profess they NEVER negotiate....ahem.
The girls here are small business owners. They don't want it "out" there that they haggle. I get it. But my job isn't to protect their business model. The point of TER is to share info, FACTUAL info, among the members about the hobby. If this pisses some girls off, so be it.
Another point. Many girls will tell you they don't like guys who linger, or overstay their visit. Why? They are business people. That's why. They want that out there, so guys don't infringe on their time, profit, etc. Ok, fair enough.
But then those same girls who claim its a business, run around with their hair on fire if they receive a lower offer than they ask. Sorry, but they cant have it both ways.
They cant claim to have all the positives of calling it a business and none of the so called negatives. One of those negatives is having to deal with below website quoted offers. Oh the horrors of that! LOL
Can you imagine being so offended that someone offered you $1500 or $2000 for your time?
You dont see many girls here complaining b/c they know what goes on bcd and by bc. They know that negotiating helps their bottom line, image and rep bc.
All the bloviating you see the gals do here on this topic is just a dog and pony show because they are bored or they so desperately want to protect their brand. They really need to get over it and just accept the way a free market system works.
They are curious about differing ways to play this game.
I am sure you get the same inquiries bc I get re: this topic.
The girls use to have the johns here scared shitless to dare offer one penny less than MSRP and I have to admit, I am glad some guys are showing balls by standing up to what should be obvious to everyone, in that the girls say one thing on the boards, and do something quite different bc.
Some here like the open discussion. Some go BSC over it. Most though get it. Its just a few die hards at this point that wont.
Every time this comes up, a few ladies will chime in and say that they don't play the haggle game, and every single time your retort is something to the effect of them being either liars or bad businesswomen. My question to you is how can you possibly know that? There's a possibility that they're lying, sure, but isn't it equally possible that you're lying? For all we know, you've paid full price for every date you've ever done. Maybe it's you who's putting on a "dog and pony show" because you can't afford some of the ladies you'd like to see. Hell if I know, but the potential that either side of this debate is misrepresenting the way they do things is equal for both the ladies and the guys.
As for my personal take on this subject, I'll be straight up because I keep it 100: when I first started out, I'd take lowball offers all the time because I was afraid of losing the potential for a regular client. Those guys became regulars, for sure. Regular boundary-pushing annoyances that ultimately ended up costing me a lot more in terms of my peace of mind than the lost income would have. That's exactly how I learned that it is not beneficial to me to deal with hagglers. I'd rather sit at home because the money is not worth the aggravation. Furthermore, I find it particularly interesting that you mention the importance of a "loose clock," which I can only interpret as you expecting free time in addition to the financial break that you're already allegedly receiving. That's the exact kind of "wanting more for less" attitude that so many of us find completely maddening. And before you start bringing up the free market argument, keep in mind that this is a unique business that entails a lot more complications and personal touch than any other profession. It's just not comparable (there are always analogies that can illustrate certain points, but generally speaking, there's no direct comparison).
If you look at this business in terms of pure dollars, then yeah, something is always better than nothing. But you're failing to take into account even the possibility that some of us would rather conserve our energy and preserve our sanity at the expense of a few extra bucks. That doesn't mean that we're lying or that we're not making smart business decisions.
Posted By: JackDunphy
If I offer, and the girl takes $1500 when her website states $2000 for that amount of time, you, as well as many of the ladies who publicly offer their displeasure see that as a $500 loss, or as you put it, "cutting into their margins."
I see it, and the girls who accept see it, as a $1500 gain.
I do not lock myself into any one girl. EVER. I get quotes from them, decide who I want to see based on pics, reviews, guys I know bc, how loose they are with their clock, and, of course, price.
Look at it this way. If a girl was sitting at home instead of working p4p one night and my $1500 offer comes floating into her mailbox, do you really think a gal with rent due, car payment, insurance bills, child care bills, etc really thinks she is losing $500???
I can most assure you she does not. The girls I see are sweet, fun and smart business girls.
I believe women know what is in there best interests better than you and I, and better than some hookers who profess they NEVER negotiate....ahem.
The girls here are small business owners. They don't want it "out" there that they haggle. I get it. But my job isn't to protect their business model. The point of TER is to share info, FACTUAL info, among the members about the hobby. If this pisses some girls off, so be it.
Another point. Many girls will tell you they don't like guys who linger, or overstay their visit. Why? They are business people. That's why. They want that out there, so guys don't infringe on their time, profit, etc. Ok, fair enough.
But then those same girls who claim its a business, run around with their hair on fire if they receive a lower offer than they ask. Sorry, but they cant have it both ways.
They cant claim to have all the positives of calling it a business and none of the so called negatives. One of those negatives is having to deal with below website quoted offers. Oh the horrors of that! LOL
Can you imagine being so offended that someone offered you $1500 or $2000 for your time?
You dont see many girls here complaining b/c they know what goes on bcd and by bc. They know that negotiating helps their bottom line, image and rep bc.
All the bloviating you see the gals do here on this topic is just a dog and pony show because they are bored or they so desperately want to protect their brand. They really need to get over it and just accept the way a free market system works.
I post on this subject (and notice I haven't brought this topic up to start a thread in quite some time) to counter this "I don't negotiate and other girls don't either" bullshit.
These are not just "ladies" chiming in but small business owners.
There is a conflict of interest when women here say "never negotiate." Gee, it just happens to be in some gals benefit to put that crap out there. Sorry if countering it is "maddening" to you. LOL
Even you admit you negotiate, or did so at one time. Ok, maybe it didn't work for you. It works for others. I am sure you would admit that.
But lets be honest that it IS happening Tobi, and happening every single day somewhere and many girls are benefitting from it
Seriously, link me to one post wherein a gal has said that and I will eat my hat because I've seen that said exactly zero times.
Not one of us is denying that negotiations happen. That'd be wildly presumptuous. My question to you was a simple one: why, when a lady says "I don't play the haggle game" do you claim that she's either lying or running her business poorly? It's one thing to make a generalization, it's quite another to claim that you are omniscient when it comes to the business practices of each and every hooker in the Western Hemisphere. So why make such a claim? And why get so emo about it?
The impression many girls try to give here is that it isn't done or shouldn't be done. Look at Elle's response.
And you are wrong. When a girl insists they don't haggle, my usual response is "good for you, but others benefit by it." Isn't that what I have said to you basically?
And its pretty funny saying I am "emo" about when you have several girls losing it over this topic using curses and ad hominem attacks. Its the gals that got their panties in a wad over this issue, not the guys
Her exact words: "I know that I am not alone. Many ladies specifically state that rates are non-negotiable"
Notice her use of the word "many." She's not wrong about that. Many ladies DO state that negotiating is unacceptable to them. That's undeniable. I don't even know why you decided to cite that one.
I can't recall a time that you've ever said "good for you" to a chick who has said that she won't negotiate. I'm not saying that it's never happened (you probably have said it to me), but the vast majority of the time you respond with the "you're just saying that publicly"/"you don't know how the free market works"/"accepting lowball offers is just good business practice" stuff.
My question remains unanswered: how do you know that they're lying/making poor business decisions? And yes, it's a rhetorical question because I just want you to admit that you don't know. None of us do.
Posted By: JackDunphy
Only BSC hookers or johns would do that, I guess.
The impression many girls try to give here is that it isn't done or shouldn't be done. Look at Elle's response.
And you are wrong. When a girl insists they don't haggle, my usual response is "good for you, but others benefit by it." Isn't that what I have said to you basically?
And its pretty funny saying I am "emo" about when you have several girls losing it over this topic using curses and ad hominem attacks. Its the gals that got their panties in a wad over this issue, not the guys.
Quote something I said verbatim and I'll defend it. This can't be THAT difficult. LOL
-- Modified on 1/16/2015 11:03:42 PM
"Gals will do what is in there best interests and sometimes those interests are stated one way publicly and another way privately."
"All the bloviating you see the gals do here on this topic is just a dog and pony show because they are bored or they so desperately want to protect their brand. They really need to get over it and just accept the way a free market system works."
"The girls here are small business owners. They don't want it "out" there that they haggle."
"...the girls say one thing on the boards, and do something quite different bc."
"She is obviously a very young and inexperienced gal whom I am sure her guys suck up to her to some degree. She's not wise on business matters and thus comes the anger."
"But I m sure you hold firm at 2g's, right Sola? If a good client offered $1800 you would DNS him? Or would you "tank" the session? LOL"
"My knowledge of business is that the CUSTOMER determines what is, or what is not "value" and "exceptional value" to boot."
"No surprise. Many girls here don't understand the customer service part of p4p."
"Its been my experience that many of the ones who scream about not negotiating in public...are the very same ones who actually do negotiate in private. LOL Its all a just a dog and pony show to stand with the girls in unity. If those other gals really knew what you and I know!"
"She clearly doesn't know what she is talking about and doesn't know how the world works. But my real hunch is she has gotten low balled too much lately and is trying to put a stop to it publicly,,At least.. Maybe in her mind the "offers" will rise a bit by so bitterly complaining here? Yeah, maybe some soft johns will buy in. No, I am sure she takes nothing less than every red cent she "requests." Just like every hooker and business does. LOL"
"Do you really think what a hooker says on this board is what they do behind the scenes? Or what they put on their websites is written in stone?"
"If they tell the lie long enough and loud enough, they hope softer johns or the know nothing crowd with their candles in hand will just wilt and pay MSRP for all."
THAT is the kind of shit I'm asking about. You seem to know what goes on behind the curtain when it comes to every hooker who claims here that she doesn't negotiate. According to you, those ladies are either liars or their businesses are not doing well because they don't know what they're doing. My (admittedly rhetorical) question is how do you know that? The answer is a simple one: you don't.
Personally, I don't give a shit who's lowballing and who's accepting less than their posted rates. What I do take issue with is the assertion that those who disagree with you are either dishonest or poor entrepreneurs. Those are pretty serious accusations to make without any supporting evidence.
Christ Tobi, I even said "just a hunch" and "maybe" and "it's been my "experience" to even further prove I didn't know fact certain what every girl does. Never claimed to either. That was you and plants twisting and distorting what I said.
Look I can't blame you for trying. I knew what I said and I baited you into finding posts to prove MY point for me and you did so.
You, plants and a few others here hate this topic and thus you don't argue from a logical position but from a highly emotional one. Never a good thing.
Normally I wouldn't have even responded to something so obviously factually false but I actually respect you as I have stated before and you and I have had good debates on topics where we at least saw each other's points.
“I’m an arrogant ass who believes I KNOW that every provider who says she doesn’t negotiate is lying and/or doesn’t understand how the world works” And yet, anyone who can read understands what you mean.
"GALS will do….” "All the bloviating you see THE GALS do…..” “THE GIRLS here….” "SHE clearly doesn't know what she is talking about and doesn't know how the world works. "Do you really think what A HOOKER says on this board is what THEY do behind the scenes?
over and over. And over.
You have the balls to say it—-but you don’t have the balls to own it? THIS is your defense?: ….NONE of them say "all." And I use the words "some" and “many.”
Everything I've said within this exchange has been completely devoid of emotion.
I never said that you said "all." What I questioned you about was your insinuations/accusations towards individual female posters on this board, as well as some of your generalizations.
I don't know where you're getting the idea that I hate this topic. If I hated it, I'd stay out of it. And it's not "baiting" when I inserted myself into the conversation. Why would you need me to prove your point for you? I don't even know what your point is.
Posted By: JackDunphy
Christ Tobi, I even said "just a hunch" and "maybe" and "it's been my "experience" to even further prove I didn't know fact certain what every girl does. Never claimed to either. That was you and plants twisting and distorting what I said.
Look I can't blame you for trying. I knew what I said and I baited you into finding posts to prove MY point for me and you did so.
You, plants and a few others here hate this topic and thus you don't argue from a logical position but from a highly emotional one. Never a good thing.
Normally I wouldn't have even responded to something so obviously factually false but I actually respect you as I have stated before and you and I have had good debates on topics where we at least saw each other's points.
I've already presented your claims to you and asked you to explain them, but I guess it's not happening.
And there's nothing to dodge on the emo issue. You think those chicks "lost it," I think you have an inexplicable boner (bordering on obsession) for this whole negotiation issue. I don't get it. I also think you're WAY off base when you say that those ladies got their asses kicked. Y'all argued, it got weird, and it also got way too long and small for me to keep reading. That's my opinion. You don't have to agree.
Still, that's completely irrelevant to what I've been asking you over and over again on this thread. You can't possibly deny that you've repeatedly made the claim that these girls are either liars or bad businesswomen, right? Because that'd be some major back pedaling.
Posted By: JackDunphy
Plants accused me of the same nonsense.
Maybe you can find the post she can't seem too?
Nice dodge on the emo issue too.
No, let's not go there. The ladies got there asses kicked enough in one night. LOL
They haven’t been able to recruit enough (well...any) hobbyist’ to fill spaces for their ongoing “all providers are lying lousy business people” public circle-jerk.
But. I’m sure that will get better. Maybe they should lower the entry fee? I don't think these guys have a good grasp of business. But....they are eager and enthusiastic. Certainly committed.
I’m confident the two of them will do just fine on their own
You have the whole flippin’ kennel and dog park combined.
ANY provider who says she doesn’t negotiate is either lying OR, she doesn’t understand how to run her own business. (Rude and condescending) message delivered.
If an individual provider says that SHE doesn’t negotiate, there are 2 possibilities:
1. She’s lying. She says she doesn’t negotiate, but she DOES. In which case accusing her of not understanding business BECAUSE she won’t negotiate is silly. She does negotiate which, IN YOUR OPINION, puts her in the camp of “real” business owners.
2. She’s telling the truth. She really DOESN’T negotiate. IN YOUR OPINION this proves she doesn’t understand business; not even her own. You believe that negotiating would be good for her, but she just doesn’t understand—-Poor ‘Ting. But how she chooses to run her business is none of YOUR business. You don’t KNOW that incorporating rate negotiation into her business model will be a positive for HER (and, I’ve seen more than a few provider spell out the reasons it was not good for them—-this thread and others). It would be good for YOU. I get that.
But what now?
In either case, continuing to insist that she is either lying, OR insisting she doesn’t understand how to run her own business will get you nowhere and prove nothing. And, as Tobi said: when has anyone ever said that negotiation never happens? When? Who said this?
Most every small business owner has used that test. In case you're not sure of how the mirror test works...place a mirror under your nose and if it fogs over...then one would take that person as a client (since they're breathing).
However even the most profitable, successful, well known businesses negotiate. There's all different forms of it.
I feel that when anyone boldly states that they don't...they're not being forthright. They have a reason for boldly stating that here, and I get why they would. But when there are opportunities, any business owner will tend to listen to an offer if there's sufficient merit in it.
I don't believe that Jack, or myself is suggesting to list out the one hour B&G's as a point of negotiation. However as you've pointed out, that happens with frequency as well.
I expect that the word haggling, or negotiation is a matter of semantics for some. However some on these boards feel they would never ever question a fee. And that's fine...they're the consumer and have every right to simply pay what is listed.
But when the vendors want to suggest they won't...or wouldn't...or never have is simply bombastic. I guess that's a nice way of suggesting they're not telling the (whole) truth.
Posted By: Tobi Telford
Every time this comes up, a few ladies will chime in and say that they don't play the haggle game, and every single time your retort is something to the effect of them being either liars or bad businesswomen. My question to you is how can you possibly know that? There's a possibility that they're lying, sure, but isn't it equally possible that you're lying? For all we know, you've paid full price for every date you've ever done. Maybe it's you who's putting on a "dog and pony show" because you can't afford some of the ladies you'd like to see. Hell if I know, but the potential that either side of this debate is misrepresenting the way they do things is equal for both the ladies and the guys.
As for my personal take on this subject, I'll be straight up because I keep it 100: when I first started out, I'd take lowball offers all the time because I was afraid of losing the potential for a regular client. Those guys became regulars, for sure. Regular boundary-pushing annoyances that ultimately ended up costing me a lot more in terms of my peace of mind than the lost income would have. That's exactly how I learned that it is not beneficial to me to deal with hagglers. I'd rather sit at home because the money is not worth the aggravation. Furthermore, I find it particularly interesting that you mention the importance of a "loose clock," which I can only interpret as you expecting free time in addition to the financial break that you're already allegedly receiving. That's the exact kind of "wanting more for less" attitude that so many of us find completely maddening. And before you start bringing up the free market argument, keep in mind that this is a unique business that entails a lot more complications and personal touch than any other profession. It's just not comparable (there are always analogies that can illustrate certain points, but generally speaking, there's no direct comparison).
If you look at this business in terms of pure dollars, then yeah, something is always better than nothing. But you're failing to take into account even the possibility that some of us would rather conserve our energy and preserve our sanity at the expense of a few extra bucks. That doesn't mean that we're lying or that we're not making smart business decisions.
Posted By: JackDunphy
If I offer, and the girl takes $1500 when her website states $2000 for that amount of time, you, as well as many of the ladies who publicly offer their displeasure see that as a $500 loss, or as you put it, "cutting into their margins."
I see it, and the girls who accept see it, as a $1500 gain.
I do not lock myself into any one girl. EVER. I get quotes from them, decide who I want to see based on pics, reviews, guys I know bc, how loose they are with their clock, and, of course, price.
Look at it this way. If a girl was sitting at home instead of working p4p one night and my $1500 offer comes floating into her mailbox, do you really think a gal with rent due, car payment, insurance bills, child care bills, etc really thinks she is losing $500???
I can most assure you she does not. The girls I see are sweet, fun and smart business girls.
I believe women know what is in there best interests better than you and I, and better than some hookers who profess they NEVER negotiate....ahem.
The girls here are small business owners. They don't want it "out" there that they haggle. I get it. But my job isn't to protect their business model. The point of TER is to share info, FACTUAL info, among the members about the hobby. If this pisses some girls off, so be it.
Another point. Many girls will tell you they don't like guys who linger, or overstay their visit. Why? They are business people. That's why. They want that out there, so guys don't infringe on their time, profit, etc. Ok, fair enough.
But then those same girls who claim its a business, run around with their hair on fire if they receive a lower offer than they ask. Sorry, but they cant have it both ways.
They cant claim to have all the positives of calling it a business and none of the so called negatives. One of those negatives is having to deal with below website quoted offers. Oh the horrors of that! LOL
Can you imagine being so offended that someone offered you $1500 or $2000 for your time?
You dont see many girls here complaining b/c they know what goes on bcd and by bc. They know that negotiating helps their bottom line, image and rep bc.
All the bloviating you see the gals do here on this topic is just a dog and pony show because they are bored or they so desperately want to protect their brand. They really need to get over it and just accept the way a free market system works.
I don't believe it has to be ALL OR NOTHING like you said. Afterall you sounds intelligent enough but then again if you don't want to publicly admit it I understand perfectly.
It's only logical that a new business starting out will need to use a lot of discounts and specials to build up its clientele. Then once it is on solid footing that need is lessened. However I would think a smart business or a smart businesswoman like you would not just cut-off cold turkey all (discounted) regulars. Instead you would probably pick and choose. Unless you have the misfortune of having every single one 100% of them being so undesirable surely you have some goods among the bads. So it would make perfect business sense to turn off the discount and raise the rate on the "undesirable" clients because you no longer need them as much as before. But still keep the few good clients who have always been nice and well-behaved with whom you've had good rapport with a "grandather-ed" rate. Those nice-guy regulars can instead serve as go-to backup whenever there's a slow cycle in the biz. Think hedge funds! LOL
That argument is pretty hard to argue with. In a way, it's not 'negotiating' either. It's more like a Priceline approach. Here's xxx amount...you want it? It's yours. I see nothing wrong with this thinking.
Women that lower their rates often make more money because they see more clients. I know if I dropped my rates I would have more business than I care to handle and that is why I keep my prices up.
However, I find that offering discounts and negotiating my listed price actually does the opposite. It cost me clients or gets me more wanting the discount than paying full price.
If a girl is willing to discount or negotiate, she may as well just lower her rates.
The problem is, no matter how much she drops them, there will always be someone asking for her time at a discounted rate.
I just booked with a provider who's $360 per hour on tour. In reading her reviews, I found a couple of comments from guys who said that her rate was more than they're accustomed to paying, but she was worth it. Aside from raising the question as to what sort of providers these guys usually see, the comments indicate that they perceived her value to be such that they were willing to spend more. Is she really worth more than the $250 per hour providers, or did they just perceive her to be because of her price? (I'm sure I'm going to find that she really is worth more, but that's beside the point).
If there's such a thing as an ideal price, it would be one at which the provider makes up with the higher rate for business lost because she's higher than her competition (assuming her competitors are of the same caliber). So, if her competitors charge $350 an hour, and she's at $400, she can afford to lose 12.5% of potential customers because of her price and still make the same amount. She would also have room to negotiate without making less per hour than she would if she were priced the same as the competition. Or maybe she decides she can afford to lose whatever percentage of potential clients there are who insist on negotiating price.
As far as negotiating goes, she needs to decide at what dollar amount it's no longer worth opening her legs, and set a floor price somewhere above that. Maybe the $400 is that floor
I NEVER negotiate unless I'm buying a cheap car or a used shack.
Most business people have their favorite clients due to many different reasons, some clients pay more some pay less, more often than not, clients who attempt negotiating price with the best successful businesses, will find their calls not answered. If I was hired for an advertising campaign for a client who is easy to please and accepts my work on the first take, I would charge them much less than a person who always complains, takes more time and never seems satisfied with my final product.
Many guys have no clue how their behavior is perceived behind closed doors or online for that matter. Some pompous fools believe they are complimenting their favorite provider when he follows her online, replying to her every post, like a sick puppy with an itch that won't go away. Of course that guy will usually pay more when he calls for the next overnight or one hour date, if she calls back at all. I often wish providers would occasionally give those guys a reply on the boards, so they don't appear so pathetic with their unfulfilled attention addiction.
Some guys can't wait to tell their Bro's they negotiated a fifty buck discount on a $ 400.00 one hour session . When his favorite circle jerk buddy asks the provider for the fifty buck discount she gave to John Schmuck, future discounts for John were flushed.
I would never do an overnight on the first meeting. If we met for an hour or two and I desire an overnight with her, I would ask her what my overnight donation would be. I couldn't care less if the other guy is paying more or less than me for an hour or twenty four. Who knows for sure if her web site rates are updated?
The first time I inquired about an overnight from a gal I had enjoyed numerous times, the young lady had a screener. Her website at the time stated $3000.00 for an overnight. I called her screener and inquired her overnight rate to take her on a cruise on a Yacht I occasionally borrow from a wealthy friend. I sent her screener a phone photo of the yacht. He said he would get back with me after he talked to her . The next day he called and said her overnight is "usually" $ 3500.00 but since she really liked me, my overnight donation would only be $1000.00. I told him I'd call back, I never did since I had a feeling it wasn't me she liked, she was enthralled with my borrowed Yacht.
The providers are selling their looks and talent, but they're charging by their time. That's the case in many other professions, as it is in photography. Customers would try to chew us down on our day rates, but they had no problem paying for the cost of film. So we increased our markup on the cost of film to 800%, and that covered us when we got knocked down on rate. If they burned through thirty or forty sheets of film in a day's shoot, we'd make an extra $600 to $800.
Maybe providers who have a lot of guys trying to haggle can charge $100 per condom.
I didn't like the sucker feeling her screener gave me when he said her overnight rate is usually $ 3500.00 but since she "really " liked me, I would only have to pay $1000.00. I called a civilian GF I had taken tent camping in the mountains a few times, asked if she wanted to go to the beach for the week end, without mentioning I was borrowing a wealthy friend's yacht to substitute for my usual company in a tent. Without going into details I felt like I hit a home run with my Civilian friend that week end. After all is said and done, it's the feeling that counts the most to me.
As far as negotiating on a new Lexus, if I had an extra sixty grand to buy a car I wouldn't spend hours in the dealership, haggling with a salesman to save a few thousand dollars, or be proud of myself if I negotiated down so low, the poor salesman goes home with a lousy three hundred dollar commission, after I beat his managers price down to the gutter. Plus, if I had Lexus money I'd be inclined to save some more until I could afford a luxury Mercedes.
If I had the money to buy a Beach Home I'd be looking to buy a new Custom home built by a Quality builder, a home with substantial pilings and the best materials, not some cookie cutter built by a Jack leg willing to negotiate, who wouldn't know how to build a quality home if his life depended on it. I imagine a quality builder would tell you to go fishing, if you tried to beat his custom home price down. As it stands I can only dream of anything other than my old Chevette and my much older shack, but that has nothing to do with dignity unless I lived my life in abstract artificiality .
Posted By: cocktail-party
I have to say that you whiffed on that one.
Posted By: JackDunphy
So you wouldnt negotiate a new Lexus or a home on the beach?Check.
Wait a minute there. So are you saying if she had said "Sorry yacht or canoe or dingy my rate is still as posted $3,500" you would take her up because she's such a principled woman and unbowed by materialistic luxury? Seriously? and so you were offended and butt-hurt that like 99% of the normal human being she dreams and loves to be on a luxury yacht and NOT because you look like Bratt Pitt or George Clooney?
Or you were merely testing her all along and NEVER planned to book the $3,500 date anyway?
Of course there is a DIFFERENCE between asking a civilian to go out with you as supposed to a professional escort. It's like asking a friend to rub your back vs. asking for a CMT session with a professional physical therapist. It IS their profession their job to charge money for service!
Please!!!!!!! IMO George Clooney is the slumped version of a wimpy Hollywood sad sack , not a look I would ever hope to trade for, although George has managed to muster a few forced smiles since he found a lift with stylish elevator shoes and a gorgeous bride. On the other hand, Brad Pitt looks like a happy, smiling, dashing man, with a sparkle of ruggedness, in your defense we met half way on our versions of desirable men. .
I was not offended in the least, repulsed is the proper word . If her screener hadn't pumped forged praise in my direction in hopes to earn his commission, I would have booked her for more than $ 1000.00 if that deal had been offered, but definitely not for $ 500.00 more than her web site stated price. She might have told her screener I am a polite guy who leaves on time, or quad doesn't try to fuck my ass when he knows it's not on my menu, or quad is a regular customer, I'll give him a discount for an overnight Yacht trip. I am sure she didn't tell her screener she "really likes me" or she would have called and told me herself. The bottom line, I couldn't stand the thought of her screener making a commission for his doofus sales pitch. Some guys are so gullible it's hilarious. No wonder Bernie Madoff found so many suckers.
Her website stated $ 3000.00 . The fact her screener said her overnight rate was $ 3500.00 was a big feather gone from his fluffy brain, like the used car salesman who jacks up the price by $2000.00 when asked, when he doesn't realize some of us can decipher the price code on the windshield.
I didn't book with her again until a couple years later when I heard she found another screener, a lady. To elaborate with a different scenario though similar from my perspective, her screener reminded me of the restaurant owner who comes to my table a few times during one meal, pestering me and my date, telling us how happy he is we came back, when all I was looking for him to do, keep his restaurant clean, his good chef happy, make sure his bus boys sweep the crumbs off the floor, and his dishwashers supply clean plates. My server will make sure I am satisfied with my meal and flirt a bit when my date is in the powder room, if she feels that might get her a bigger tip. If I like the place and the food I'll come back as long as the owner stays in his office or at the least, leave us alone while we are trying to enjoy our meal. I don't need some obnoxious dude praising me, trying to make me feel any better or more secure about myself than I already do. Some guys crave their egotistical security blanket stroked everywhere they go. From my perspective false praise is sickening. With hopes I was a bit more clear, if not that's OK by me, I certainly don't expect everyone to understand my point of view.
Posted By: Skyfyre
Wait a minute there. So are you saying if she had said "Sorry yacht or canoe or dingy my rate is still as posted $3,500" you would take her up because she's such a principled woman and unbowed by materialistic luxury? Seriously? and so you were offended and butt-hurt that like 99% of the normal human being she dreams and loves to be on a luxury yacht and NOT because you look like Bratt Pitt or George Clooney?
Or you were merely testing her all along and NEVER planned to book the $3,500 date anyway?
Of course there is a DIFFERENCE between asking a civilian to go out with you as supposed to a professional escort. It's like asking a friend to rub your back vs. asking for a CMT session with a professional physical therapist. It IS their profession their job to charge money for service!
Want to give a discount or find stomeing else low if she keep her cost down she could pass it on for example doing incall under the local bridge cost less than driving to a outcall or renting a room.
Posted By: Pangloss
Sorry for starting another thread but that other thread has so many replies that I needed to buy another screen to see the replies on the far right side. Beyond that, I replied last night but it never made it onto the thread because I used a lady's name. Funny, others have mentioned the name repeatedly and their posts have made it through moderation with no problem. Anyway, I think this is a meaningful topic.
First of all, I really did enjoy the discussion because some of the replies from our lady friends did make me think about certain things that I had never stopped to consider. Second, although my approach may differ from them, I truly do appreciate the replies from GaG, JD and the good Dr.
Here is a fact, I am a professional and about 10 years ago I took one of those business coaching programs, it cost me about 25K (see, I overpay for everything!). Actually, it cost a lot more because every weekend retreat away from home was an opportunity to hobby, LOL! I paid that amount of money for basically one key lesson, one that I already knew: would I rather service three clients for X dollars or would I rather service two clients for X dollars? The answer is obvious, I want to keep my income at a certain level but I want time to do all the other things I want to do in life, and therefore, I want to maximize my income per client. When I am asked for a discount, I politely decline, and if the client insists, I will give him/her/it some version of "fuck-off."
My clients, particularly my corporate clients from which I derive 80% of my income, all travel in the same circle. Even the individual clients travel in the same circles because I offer my services to a couple of very niche industries. If I give one client a discount, I am fucked, I have just diluted my earning potential and my brand. I also do not want a client to talk to another and then find out that I charged them X while they paid Y (I referenced the Carolinas example on TER which is why I assume my reply did not make it through). Suffice it to say that the same analysis holds true for the ladies here, this community talks and it is simply not a good idea for them to agree to discounts.
Yes, when I first started I did give discounts here and there, after all, if the choice is between keeping the lights on and feeding myself versus telling a client to fuck-off, the smart choice seemed to be taking the haircut on the fees and not letting the potential client walk away. Truth be told, in almost every single instance in which I gave a discount I lived to regret it for one reason or another. Then the internet came, I realized how many of my clients knew each other that led me to pledge to myself to never do that shit again.
I am not saying ladies should not offer discounts, I am not saying that they are not good at business, I am not demeaning their ability to think, I personally don't see the benefit for an established lady to give a discount. Notice the qualification there, if a lady is starting, if she has not have a solid book of business, I can see a colorable argument for offering the discounts while things get off the ground. I would also agree that if a client and a lady see each other very often and they both enjoy each other's company, which presumably they would if they see each other all the time, it may make sense to negotiate for both parties. The client is rewarded for his loyalty and the lady pays a little for the certainty of knowing that every few days or weeks she has some money coming in from somebody she knows well and does not have to worry about in terms of safety, etc. etc. etc.
This is not a shot at you guys, particularly JD who made the comment about a certain amount being nothing to him, I much prefer a person I disagree with who is a straight shooter to some limp-dicked asshole who is PC and tells people what they like to hear, but this is a setting in which I do not enjoy cutting into the margins of the person providing me with the services/goods. You know, if we have the money, and if a few hundred dollars here and there don't really matter in my life, there is no joy for me in getting the lady to cut a certain percentage of her fee for such a personal service that I enjoy so much.
With that said, have a good weekend, I have a flight to catch to Vegas, he, he, he....
Seems most guys here aren't interested in much more than BCD.
Others enjoy the OTC as part of a session.
Some gals simply don't provide fun chat...but are rocking BCD. Hence, why be stuck listening to someone rant about their lot in life..as that seems to be an outlet for many here.
I enjoy just meeting up with my friends who are interested in just doing lunch and babbling about fun stuff. If that's a problem for you, I'll ask them to stop inviting me out. I trust that will make you feel better?
... but I believe every businessperson should have the right to set what she thinks is a fair price for her services. And if she wants to adopt a "no negotiations" policy, so be it.
I heard a story years ago about a very successful local business that has a fixed-price policy. One day, a long-time customer tried to negotiate a discount with the owner of the business but was politely reminded of the fixed-price policy. Irate, the customer said he would take his business elsewhere. The owner told the customer, I'm very sorry to lose you as a customer, and I appreciate all the business you've given us over the years. And I assure you you'll get the same high level of service from us until your contract with us expires.
I seek providers who offer good value based on their published rates. But I have negotiated with a provider, twice, for extra-long sessions for which she had no published rates. I asked her what her fee would be, and she replied, "What do you think is fair?" And we agreed on what we both thought was a fair rate.
I understand why some might haggle, but I could never do so. I personally want both physical AND emotional intimacy from the providers I see; haggling over money would completely undermine the experience I try to achieve. Plus haggling with a person who is going to share some of their most intimate aspects simply feels wrong to me. She is putting a price on her time, her body and her soul; if you don't like her valuation, then probably best to move on.
However, I have experienced that prices are extremely flexible. I repeat with women that I find interesting, intelligent and attractive, who I genuinely like as human beings, with whom I want to spend my time and from whom I feel that the sentiment is reciprocated. I see a number of women who, when I arrange a session for 1.5 - 2.0 hours, they will fairly often stay significantly longer, sometimes 3-4 hours beyond what was arranged. I have never asked them to do so, but I take it for the gift that it is. However I certainly don't badger them on subsequent visits if they stay for less time than the previous meeting. I tell them that I have no expectations beyond what we've officially arranged. It is their choice to stay longer and they may make a different choice each time, and that's perfectly fine with me. They also know that I will not post the specifics on public sites, beyond "not a clockwatcher", as doing so could cause them grief with those who Tobi referred to as "boundary-pushing annoyances".
But my point here is NOT to brag that I am getting free time. The hobby is so intimate and personal that a providers publicly stated price reflects the local market rate and her price to share herself with a stranger with whom she may have no rapport, find unattractive, whatever. Some may choose to stick to a set price, based on income needs, her own self-valuation, high demand for her time or some other reason. Others will be flexible, which in my experience includes cases in which they seem to find personal value in spending time with the client. But the key is that it is up to them to decide and not to feel pressured to compromise themselves; that serves no one.
Lastly and bluntly, maybe if some of you stopped being such overbearing demanding assholes and respected women more, you might get better service.
Just don't write a review after her with some gal that's pricier. She may get all bent out of shape that you spent money elsewhere.
As for your circular logic...there is no emotional intimacy here. The gals provide the illusion...nothing more. So to state that discussing price somehow will ruin that...you've already discussed it by trying to see her. It's simply a price...whether it's published and you want to pay it is the only issue here.
When she's seeing you without compensation you can discuss emotional components. I trust dog walking, taking garbage out, and her having a headache tonight are some of those components as well.
Where are you reading that anyone is disrespecting women? I thought the topic was how much to pay for a service. Oh wait...you are one of those guys that feels that asking for something that isn't out there is a sign of disrespect.
Carry on.
Posted By: analytic_logic
I understand why some might haggle, but I could never do so. I personally want both physical AND emotional intimacy from the providers I see; haggling over money would completely undermine the experience I try to achieve. Plus haggling with a person who is going to share some of their most intimate aspects simply feels wrong to me. She is putting a price on her time, her body and her soul; if you don't like her valuation, then probably best to move on.
However, I have experienced that prices are extremely flexible. I repeat with women that I find interesting, intelligent and attractive, who I genuinely like as human beings, with whom I want to spend my time and from whom I feel that the sentiment is reciprocated. I see a number of women who, when I arrange a session for 1.5 - 2.0 hours, they will fairly often stay significantly longer, sometimes 3-4 hours beyond what was arranged. I have never asked them to do so, but I take it for the gift that it is. However I certainly don't badger them on subsequent visits if they stay for less time than the previous meeting. I tell them that I have no expectations beyond what we've officially arranged. It is their choice to stay longer and they may make a different choice each time, and that's perfectly fine with me. They also know that I will not post the specifics on public sites, beyond "not a clockwatcher", as doing so could cause them grief with those who Tobi referred to as "boundary-pushing annoyances".
But my point here is NOT to brag that I am getting free time. The hobby is so intimate and personal that a providers publicly stated price reflects the local market rate and her price to share herself with a stranger with whom she may have no rapport, find unattractive, whatever. Some may choose to stick to a set price, based on income needs, her own self-valuation, high demand for her time or some other reason. Others will be flexible, which in my experience includes cases in which they seem to find personal value in spending time with the client. But the key is that it is up to them to decide and not to feel pressured to compromise themselves; that serves no one.
Lastly and bluntly, maybe if some of you stopped being such overbearing demanding assholes and respected women more, you might get better service.
I couldn't help but notice some ladies and gentlemen here believe haggling is rude.
To be fair, we should not consider haggling a slander on a man's stature, or respect him any less for a trait he was were born with and can't control, like a baby shitting in his diapers.
I don't believe haggling is anymore a personal choice than sexual preference. Haggling is a way of life we were born with or not.
Perhaps some men learn to haggle from their Bro's, though I haven't read any legitimate scientific studies or seen proof to convince me. We see many Bro's quite vocal with their opinion on haggling, like they are trying to convince others of different opinion, similar to men constantly vocalizing their belief, their own sexual preference is the normal one.
To each their own I like to say, either you are born to haggle or you are satisfied with the posted price.
In my case I look for the sale price, though I'm most pleased when finding two for one advertised, to maximize my shopping dollars. . I'm sure many of you realized long before I posted my thoughts on haggling, there are many men with DNA impregnated in their brain, reinforcing their belief, without haggling there is no life.
There's a word for it............. brain freeze........
Do they have hospitals in Mayberry where you live?
When did you finally get internet?
I doubt you've ever left the Mayberry city limits...for if you had you might know that haggling, err negotiation goes on in every city, village and shithole in every country and continent.
Even in Mayberry
Hey...take a nice trip to Mexico City...I don't think many of those residents were born in the Middle East. How about Panama? Perhaps Moscow? Try Stockholm. London and Paris are nice in the summer as well. Mumbai is heavenly...aside from all those open air markets where all those misguided people work their magic. The list in nearly endless. Oh..I can't forget my friends in Viet Nam...sheesh LOL
Now didn't the Grand Master ask you to pick up some hoods for tonight? Better get going.
Posted By: quadseasonal
I couldn't help but notice some ladies and gentlemen here believe haggling is rude.
To be fair, we should not consider haggling a slander on a man's stature, or respect him any less for a trait he was were born with and can't control, like a baby shitting in his diapers.
I don't believe haggling is anymore a personal choice than sexual preference. Haggling is a way of life we were born with or not.
Perhaps some men learn to haggle from their Bro's, though I haven't read any legitimate scientific studies or seen proof to convince me. We see many Bro's quite vocal with their opinion on haggling, like they are trying to convince others of different opinion, similar to men constantly vocalizing their belief, their own sexual preference is the normal one.
To each their own I like to say, either you are born to haggle or you are satisfied with the posted price.
In my case I look for the sale price, though I'm most pleased when finding two for one advertised, to maximize my shopping dollars. . I'm sure many of you realized long before I posted my thoughts on haggling, there are many men with DNA impregnated in their brain, reinforcing their belief, without haggling there is no life.
There's a word for it............. brain freeze........
Woo Hoo , I had a suspicion behind your mask you're a Dear Abby ultra sensitive guy. I do enjoy your cover up never ending roughshod advice column, "The Disgruntled Man & ABC's of Women's Business"
No, we didn't have hospitals in Mayberry when I was born. It worked out well for me , I had both a Mom and mid wife I looked up to on day one. Was Nurse Ratched the duty nurse on your birthday ? She spank you too hard?
I'll give you credit, you're a fun big little man when you're faced with truth. I'm happy to be your huckleberry.
I had internet twenty five ago, when it was slow dial up and hard to make connections, similar to your misogynist attitude causing your constant failures with women.
I had no reason to leave Mayberry to learn about hagglers. Like most places in the world, Mayberry has shopping centers for big spender, hard core negotiating thrifters, like you . Your favorite place to shop ..........Flea Markets
Posted By: Dr Who revived
Do they have hospitals in Mayberry where you live?
When did you finally get internet?
I doubt you've ever left the Mayberry city limits...for if you had you might know that haggling, err negotiation goes on in every city, village and shithole in every country and continent.
Even in Mayberry
Hey...take a nice trip to Mexico City...I don't think many of those residents were born in the Middle East. How about Panama? Perhaps Moscow? Try Stockholm. London and Paris are nice in the summer as well. Mumbai is heavenly...aside from all those open air markets where all those misguided people work their magic. The list in nearly endless. Oh..I can't forget my friends in Viet Nam...sheesh LOL
Now didn't the Grand Master ask you to pick up some hoods for tonight? Better get going.
Posted By: quadseasonal
I couldn't help but notice some ladies and gentlemen here believe haggling is rude.
To be fair, we should not consider haggling a slander on a man's stature, or respect him any less for a trait he was were born with and can't control, like a baby shitting in his diapers.
I don't believe haggling is anymore a personal choice than sexual preference. Haggling is a way of life we were born with or not.
Perhaps some men learn to haggle from their Bro's, though I haven't read any legitimate scientific studies or seen proof to convince me. We see many Bro's quite vocal with their opinion on haggling, like they are trying to convince others of different opinion, similar to men constantly vocalizing their belief, their own sexual preference is the normal one.
To each their own I like to say, either you are born to haggle or you are satisfied with the posted price.
In my case I look for the sale price, though I'm most pleased when finding two for one advertised, to maximize my shopping dollars. . I'm sure many of you realized long before I posted my thoughts on haggling, there are many men with DNA impregnated in their brain, reinforcing their belief, without haggling there is no life.
There's a word for it............. brain freeze........
Just because you have not personally experienced intimacy in this context, doesn't mean that it's not possible. The exchange of funds complicates matters and it can be hard to find the ones in whom I am interested and who are themselves interested in engaging with me, but in my experience it is possible. Intimacy does not require a relationship or romance or expectations, just two people willing to share themselves mentally as well as physically. If you instead choose to emphasize the purely mechanical side of the hobby in your dealings with providers, that's an entirely different path from mine.
And that old argument that if there is truly intimacy or friendship that it should be 100% free is bullshit. They still have to pay the bills, that's why they do this. The exchange of funds does not preclude mutual friendship. But there has to be mutual attraction and if one is not capable of generating the interest, then of course one might claim that it's impossible and it's only about the money.
However I can't see how someone can believe that there is intimacy when you are paying someone for that exact situation.
I suggest that if you honestly think there is something there...take the money out of the equation.
But as you say, this is how they make their living.
Circular logic...it's a bitch.
If you're happy with how you play the game that's all that matters. I hope that you enjoy it for as long as you seek this out.
Posted By: analytic_logic
Just because you have not personally experienced intimacy in this context, doesn't mean that it's not possible. The exchange of funds complicates matters and it can be hard to find the ones in whom I am interested and who are themselves interested in engaging with me, but in my experience it is possible. Intimacy does not require a relationship or romance or expectations, just two people willing to share themselves mentally as well as physically. If you instead choose to emphasize the purely mechanical side of the hobby in your dealings with providers, that's an entirely different path from mine.
And that old argument that if there is truly intimacy or friendship that it should be 100% free is bullshit. They still have to pay the bills, that's why they do this. The exchange of funds does not preclude mutual friendship. But there has to be mutual attraction and if one is not capable of generating the interest, then of course one might claim that it's impossible and it's only about the money.
you keep using the words "circular logic", you clearly don't understand nuanced rational argumentation if you feel that applies, but perhaps that reflects the black and white world you live in.
by your logic, whenever there is money involved or by extension an asymmetric power relationship, such as employer-employee, true friendship or connection is impossible. I will grant you that there are complications in any such scenario but not impossible. So you can keep repeating that claim all you like but it will not make it true. Perhaps in your experience it is and I don't doubt it given the misogynistic comments you make, but you cannot claim it is universal
The difference is I try my best to back my rate up. At $250 all the way up to $500, I did the research and put in the work to make sure that I was already a good deal, no matter my price point. Therefore, I've always been busier than I wanted to be, and have never had to hem and haw over whether I needed to pay rent. I hit the ground running and ready to take my area over, and I was rewarded for it. You can ask around, I've never taken an offer, and I've never begged for business. I work HARD. I have fucked some awful people like they were the king of my friggen universe because that is MY standard to find my gems and tens, and I will be damned if someone tries to belittle my ability, dedication, or the business I have built in such a short time by claiming that I'm lying about being able to do well enough for myself that my world doesn't revolve around it.
Because I DO look at this as a business, one that will only thrive if I take care of myself first, I've never had to be one of those girls that gives out OTC time like candy, or takes every Tom, Dick, or Harry that comes my way before begging them to stick around. Because I actually DO take care of my business, I don't have to sweat the "advice" bandied about on this board. I can relax, take care of the people who have taken care of me, and still have time to live a pretty darn fulfilling personal life. Might I make more money if I took every $300 offer that came my way? Sure. But what would that actually do to my business? There's an awful lot of short sightedness being spewed and relied upon on these threads, but I play the long game sweetie, and I don't do anything half assed. That's probably why I rarely get requests for an hour anymore, let alone a $300 one.
I'm also very frugal. Do you want to know the last time I needed money? The last time I was like "mmm, maybe I'll buy/pay that tomorrow"? My very first day. I pay bills, I reinvest, and I put it away so that I can laugh when these exact threads and arguments about the first of the month come up. What can I say? It gets me off not to be the stereotype, and there are plenty of haters here if I ever need some extra motivation
I reached the point long ago where I can do this for fun more than the money, and all I can hope is that everyone else can experience the same. Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean no one else can or hasn't at all. Just because I'm not the type of person you surround yourself with doesn't mean I don't exist.
No need to call me a liar. I know my own life cause I'm the only one living it
You seem like you might stick around a couple more years and actually make an exit without fanfare.
I hope so...good luck to you.
Posted By: OhCharlie
The difference is I try my best to back my rate up. At $250 all the way up to $500, I did the research and put in the work to make sure that I was already a good deal, no matter my price point. Therefore, I've always been busier than I wanted to be, and have never had to hem and haw over whether I needed to pay rent. I hit the ground running and ready to take my area over, and I was rewarded for it. You can ask around, I've never taken an offer, and I've never begged for business. I work HARD. I have fucked some awful people like they were the king of my friggen universe because that is MY standard to find my gems and tens, and I will be damned if someone tries to belittle my ability, dedication, or the business I have built in such a short time by claiming that I'm lying about being able to do well enough for myself that my world doesn't revolve around it.
Because I DO look at this as a business, one that will only thrive if I take care of myself first, I've never had to be one of those girls that gives out OTC time like candy, or takes every Tom, Dick, or Harry that comes my way before begging them to stick around. Because I actually DO take care of my business, I don't have to sweat the "advice" bandied about on this board. I can relax, take care of the people who have taken care of me, and still have time to live a pretty darn fulfilling personal life. Might I make more money if I took every $300 offer that came my way? Sure. But what would that actually do to my business? There's an awful lot of short sightedness being spewed and relied upon on these threads, but I play the long game sweetie, and I don't do anything half assed. That's probably why I rarely get requests for an hour anymore, let alone a $300 one.
I'm also very frugal. Do you want to know the last time I needed money? The last time I was like "mmm, maybe I'll buy/pay that tomorrow"? My very first day. I pay bills, I reinvest, and I put it away so that I can laugh when these exact threads and arguments about the first of the month come up. What can I say? It gets me off not to be the stereotype, and there are plenty of haters here if I ever need some extra motivation
I reached the point long ago where I can do this for fun more than the money, and all I can hope is that everyone else can experience the same. Just because you haven't yet doesn't mean no one else can or hasn't at all. Just because I'm not the type of person you surround yourself with doesn't mean I don't exist.
No need to call me a liar. I know my own life cause I'm the only one living it
I can't believe you even posted on this nonsensical OP. Damn girl...we beat this topic to death last night already.
And when it gets tossed out there again (not sure why TER even allowed the OP to stay up since it was essentially the same tired topic from yesterday)...the same old nonsense gets tossed out.
Let's discuss something fun.
Did you see the movie 'Saving Mr. Banks'? How about 'Interstellar'? Any movies recently?
This is a very easy arrangement. Why do some people try to fuck it up????
Look, check out her ad page, gaze at her photos, read her reviews, mosey on over to her rate page. Either you can afford to spend time with her, or you can't. If you can, great, have a wonderful time with an amazing woman and here's the best part...........wait for it........ Either you or she leaves. That's fucking perfect, why mess with perfection?
I'm not wealthy, I make more than a comfortable living, but it's not like I'm lighting cigars with $100 bills. I pay what her ad says, I'm never light, never try to take advantage of her time. For the vast majority of my experiences I've gotten what I expected, or more. I don't tip, I expect her to advertise what her time is worth, the envelope is right and we don't discuss money, period.
Fuck!!! Come on, it's really a simple arrangement.
But the sad fact is this game attracts way more than its fair share of wack jobs on both sides of the transaction. Always has, always will. That tends to make simple things complicated.
But have been very upfront about it. Half the time it's worked out, half the time it hasn't. But I've never asked a lady about this if she's clearly stated on her site that she doesn't negotiate.
If the date happens, then it's a win-win.
Here is why it makes sense in my case and I'm sure in other cases: I'm not bull-shitting, I really do have a top price that I just can't go over - which is $100 more per hour than what I'm TRULY comfortable with, but have accepted this still higher level as my absolute ceiling. So unlike most negotiations, I start from my high point with my counter offer. I'm not dicking around to save a few bucks. So if a lady can't come down to that level, there won't be a date with me (so the marginal loss argument doesn't apply). And that's absolutely fine of course, and I thank her for taking the time to respond to me and wish her well. End of story. I'm not being a dick for asking. And she's not being a bitch for refusing.
Also, I've only done this a very few times with bucket list type ladies, who were worth the obvious risk of getting a "no" in return.
I do appreciate the honesty of ladies here though who indicate they think less of guys who offer to pay less and who say they wouldn't provide as quality of service. That's definitely something I'd like to know before hand. I certainly did not encounter that with the ladies that I met at a discounted rate. But I do understand that we are all human, and if someone feels like they are being taken advantage of by only making $800 for a two hour date instead of $1,000, then that is certainly their prerogative. I respect that.
But to me this whole thing is really still like the Wild West - there are no rules. In fact, we are all breaking rules by doing this. What guides me is just being true to myself and courteous and respectful at all times. Nobody is going to agree with me and my approach 100% of the time, but that's fine. I can live with with that. My approach has worked for me - and for the ladies I've met. Win win
Hey that's me too! I don't haggle either but I do make one offer and on rare occasion would come back with a second (and last) counter-offer if my first one was countered. Like you said it really is a win-win situation if both parties are willing to meet halfway.
"... I do appreciate the honesty of ladies here though who indicate they think less of guys who offer to pay less and who say they wouldn't provide as quality of service."
Yes it would definitely make me feel better that I would NOT miss seeing that kind of provider anyway.
The way I see it money is a very good test of character. If a provider is willing to work with you and meet you halfway it indicates that she's flexible, down-to-earth, open-minded and NOT rigid stuckup GPS meaning she's more likely will be good company.
Any time I've spent more than what I thought something was worth, I ended up regretting it. I've found that if I have to negotiate for my price, I don't need what ever the person is selling.
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