You are a hopeless racist ... you are also blind. It is a waste of my time to answer you, espeically, at the end of the thread that nobody but you sees it.
I hope you are not an American.
-- Modified on 1/20/2004 9:14:00 PM
the future of this country and the coming conflicts in the next couple decades, I think this Washington Post article is a must read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28039-2004Jan18.html .
-- Modified on 1/18/2004 11:22:58 PM
A lot of these are not relegious based, rather based on local traditions ... I have travelled extensively in the Middle East, from Israel to Iran, and most countries in between, not recently I have to admit.
Cultures and traditions are not always in sync with relegion. Even today, in Iran, alcohol flows freely. Here are a few quotes for you:
Killing Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
And .. I did not see either Homosexuals, or Fortune Tellers getting executed in Israel!
I hope the point of your posting is not a silly attempt to portray a whole group of people very different from us, thus justifying inappropriate actions.
I want you to understand that till 1967, in the U.S., there were states that interracial marriages were illegal,
I want you to understand that on Jan. 12, 1915, the United States House of Representatives rejected a proposal to give women the right to vote
I want you to understand that for too long, we permitted lynching.
So what exactly was your point?
-- Modified on 1/18/2004 11:55:01 PM
Islamists against the liberal culture of Western society (Freedom, women's right, market capitalism, etc.) Many argue that things will only change when there are sufficient internal debate within Islam and Muslim commnunites to denounce, purge and marginalize the prevailing view of extremists. (The so called "Islamic Reformation Theory") I personally subscribe to that view.
Abolition of slavery in Britian happened when ordinary citizens were confronted with the brutal truth of slavery by writings of abolitionists. It would take a Civil War to accomplish that goal in US. Similarly, the Civil Right movement in late 50's and 60's gained traction when the majority of citizens were jolted by the image of brutality in Alabama.
Quite often, things only change when people within a group question the direction of where it was heading. For the longest time, there were only silence and whispers within the world wide Muslim community about the extreme form of Islam advocated by Islamists. Even in otherwise modern and moderate Muslim majority countries such as Malaysia, extreme rhetorics are not confronted by ordinary muslims. They just assume that it will go nowhere. That sort of stands emboldens the Islamists and causes impressionable youths to think that the direction advocated by Islamists is the correct way.
Since the book is one of the first widely released ones by a Muslim to put forward a strong reexamination of the current Islamic teachings and practice, I just thought that it deserves a recognition for the bravery of the author and in a way for outsiders like me to track the progress of internal Islamic reform through the various treatments her book received in various Muslim communities.
By no means do I advocate or justify any course of action(though I have strong personal views) through the above post.
-- Modified on 1/19/2004 10:23:22 AM
-- Modified on 1/19/2004 10:27:50 AM
Agreed, the author of the book is probably literally risking her life by having it published.
I think to some degree the Muslim fanatics get more press than they warrant, although they have managed to control Iran as a minority for the past 20 years. (Hopefully this too shall pass)
I do know a number of Iranian (and some Iraqi) expatriates and there beliefs and hopes are no different than the average middle of the road American. (Of course they're living in the U.S. so it's a biased sample).
Hopefully these unworkable belief systems will collapse under the weight of there own senselessness.
I'll confess to not having read the book, nor having any desire to read it. However, I have seen a number of interviews, and am singularly unimpressed.
I guess my problem is with someone who wants to conflate the genuine need for religious toleration with her desire to justify her own perversion within a religious code. The problem was aptly pointed out in an earlier post, i.e., that every religion and society since men started living in communities has admonished homosexuality. The same kind of narcissism which underlies much homosexual culture and behavior demands that society alter itself to conform to their desires. That's not religion, nor objective values; that's confirms what Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke (I don't recall which) observed: that "Man creates God in his own image."
While I wouldn't endorse the views or actions of the Islamists because they are demonstrably outside the mainstream of Muslim thought and tradition, neither would I criticize Islamic traditions. Threats against this author are uncalled for. However, it is appropriate to note that she --- like the Islamists --- are not good Muslims. If you don't want to follow the rules, you can't be in the club.
The most disappointing thing about this woman is that the pretense that she uses for provoking debate is not her real agenda. As Mona Charen once observed, "What was once 'the love that dare not speak its name' is now 'the love that will not shut its mouth." The worthwhile things that she may well have to say about reforming Islam, and the public perceptions of Islam, are lost in her effort to justify homosexuality as an acceptable practice in living a Godly life. That millenia of religious traditions are contrary to her goal makes her efforts a fool's errand.
Interesting article but I don't think it really portends anything for America's future. There have always been fanatics, religious or otherwise, many of them right here in this country.
Personally it's always hard for me to relate to these stories, because in my view all religions are fiction. (But that's flame war for another day.)
The fact that many uneducated / poor people of the world cling to religion is hardly surprising given an alternative of hopelessness. If I had nothing to live for then I think I'd start focusing on the next life too.
I think Thomas Friedman (http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/) who I sometimes find annoying, but generally find very informative, described the condition in the Middle East best as a "poverty of dignity." Some of that probably is our doing, but I think the Muslim religion, at least as it has been practiced of late in the Middle East has been a far bigger culprit. A combination of corrupt regimes (that would be the part we helped with) and a fanatical interpretation of the Muslim faith that rejects modernity and equality are dooming their civilizations to be the underclass of the world for generations to come. That has to be awfully humiliating for a region that was the birth place of civilization.
Personally I’m not too worried about the long term safety of the U.S. and its allies in all of this. We’ll certainly always be able to defend ourselves, maybe not against every terrorist, and not without economic or social costs, but we could function under much worse conditions. (The Jews in Israel already do it.) But until the Middle East becomes a place of equality and opportunity, I wouldn’t expect the social or political climate to get any better there.
I didn’t support the war but I don’t reject out of hand that it is a mistake; history may show that it was the turning point in moving the region in the right direction. There is no doubt that such a turn of events would be better for the whole world. I just thought it was an awfully big gamble that didn’t have to be assumed by the U.S. And certainly not conducted in the way it was done by this administration.
My 5 cents...
I read through this article as if I were in my 6th grade speed reading contest, this is what caught my eye.....
She described the book as the result of "a need identified at a deeply cellular level. I needed to write this, having grown up with a thick skin, a big brain and a bigger mouth, a combination that allows me to advocate ideas. . . . I'm morally obliged."
and chills ran up my spine, thx Spec!
In 1965 when Hugh J. Schonfield wrote and published "The Passover Plot" questioning the authenticity of Jesus Christ, although there was a major uproar from Christians worldwide, his life was not seriously threatened.
On the other hand in 1988 when Salman Rushdie wrote and published "The Satanic Verses" it "provoked death threats and a fatwa, or religious edict, issued by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, calling on Muslims to kill him." Khomeini's edict was not challenged by Muslim leaders.
As Irshad Manji's book becomes more well known, unfortunately she no doubt will also be forced to live under a similar threat.
The lack of Muslim leaders who have spoken up against Islamic terrorism tells me one of two things. They either agree it is called for by the Koran or they fear reprisal from those who are clearly the leaders of the Muslim faith. Either way their response (or lack of) sickens me.
Three cheer's for Irshad Manji! That girls got balls! I just ordered her book. Thank's gcinla for the heads-up!
So far this discussion is mildly interesting compared to the reality of the growing number of Islamic extremists obtaining American Citizenship. A recent investigation in the Detroit area uncovered a system wherein pregnant Islamic women were smuggled into this country so their children could be born here as American citizens. According to an expert on Middle East affairs, the Muslims feel that if the number of Muslims exceeds the number of Jews in the United States, then the support we now give Israel will go to the Islamic countries. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and it could be the fastest growing religion here as well. If they succeed, it is only a matter of time before they seize the political power that Jews not hold in the United States Congress. For the most part, Jews are elected to public office by a non Jewish electorate because they represent the general population, not just the Jewish community. Jewish politicians run the gamut from the far left to the far right and everything in between. Being Jewish has very little to do with their political philosophy. However, in the case of Islamic extremism the motive is completely opposite. Their mission is to either convert everyone to Islam, or execute the infidels.
I feel sad at times for my religion and the unfortunate way it's been portrayed in the West. I also understand the perceptions are gathered from incidents such as 9/11....Saddam Hussein, Islamic extremists and so on. Each time another bombing occurs in Israel my heart feels sad for the utter disregard for human life. There will always be fundamentalists and extremists in all religions and it's important to keep that in mind and remain objective....no small task! As far as Muslim women giving birth here, I truly believe it's more a case of economics. US citizenship is a ticket out of a life of poverty and dispair. I don't think it's a plot to propagate this country with Muslims in order to sway our government to aid Islamic countries. One thought that comes to mind though....the general hysteria over the thought of it reminds me of Nazi Germany and how they viewed the Jews. Sorry for the long post...just passionate! In the end, we are all the same: God's children
I feel sad at times for my religion and the unfortunate way it's been portrayed in the West. I also understand the perceptions are gathered from incidents such as 9/11....Saddam Hussein, Islamic extremists and so on. Each time another bombing occurs in Israel my heart feels sad for the utter disregard for human life. There will always be fundamentalists and extremists in all religions and it's important to keep that in mind and remain objective....no small task! As far as Muslim women giving birth here, I truly believe it's more a case of economics. US citizenship is a ticket out of a life of poverty and dispair. I don't think it's a plot to propagate this country with Muslims in order to sway our government to aid Islamic countries. One thought that comes to mind though....the general hysteria over the thought of it reminds me of Nazi Germany and how they viewed the Jews. Sorry for the long post...just passionate! In the end, we are all the same: God's children
One of my majors in College happened to be theology. Thoroughly
I studied the 3 major monolithic religions, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Now we all have generalized and stereotyped and one point or so in our lives due to a lack of knowledge or simply to hold on to a rigid preconception.
Humbly, I am stating that if we all were to study the religions deeply we would find that peoples practice of these religions and their intended purpose are polar opposites. To claim that Muslims want to take over this country by giving birth here is absurd. Christians try to convert "nonbelievers" all around the world. That doesn't me there is a collective Christain plot to take over the world. Nor was the European dark age a byproduct of a backward Christian religion. Islam was one of the most advanced religions for the past 14 centuries, flourishing in open societies, highly advanced in math and science, with a tolerant social and political structure, deeply rooted in social equality and justice. Most of you may not know or may not want to acknowledge that Islam gave women the right to vote 1400 years ago and we didn't give American women the right until they fought for it. Bin Laden and Saddam are no more representative of Islam than Baruch Goldstein and Meir Kahne are of Judaism or David Koresh is of Christianity. Just another nut by a different name(no pun intended)
The lady was trying to claim that Islam is intolerant because the Koran admonishes homosexuality. Every religion on earth admonishes homosexuality. I just don't understand her point. The woman wants to be accepted as a lesbian which is fine, however, don't scold one religion when every religion admonishes the act. Just couldn't follow her logic.
It’s time to put away the history books and face reality. While you were studying what occurred 1400 years ago, the World Trade Center was being destroyed. Numerous terrorist cells have been identified that consist of Arabs who were born and raised in the United States. One such group was operating in a small town in upstate New York. The fact of the matter is Arabs and Jews hate each other. The Arabs are not going to rest until Israel is no longer a Jewish state. The Arabs have also come to the realization that since Israel is supported by the United States they will never defeat Israel by fighting a war in the Middle East. The United States supports Israel because of the Jewish influence in this country. The Jews simply have more clout than the Arabs. The fact that the Arabs want to increase their numbers in the United States to compete with the Jews is common knowledge to anyone who follows current events. It is by no means a secret. I don’t support either side in this age old conflict. I am just very sorry that their war is going to be fought in the United States.
-- Modified on 1/19/2004 6:13:46 PM
By no means, we should subscribe to the dark views that you have set forth. Imagine, if we had invested the wasted $200B in the war in Iraq, which is now going to produce an Islamic Republic of Iran, Part II in Iraq, towards steps in bringing peace, how far we would have been, and how safer.
Overwhelming number of Arabs, muslims, Jews, and Israelis want an honorable and equitable peace. This war and conflict is being fueled by Oil and Military industrial centers of power.
It is clear, we are not going to annihilate 1.4 B muslims, also, Israel is not going to be abandoned. So, there is no alternative to a peaceful solution. The extremism on all sides is only a by product.
I have had jews, muslims, Iranians, Arabs, all working together in my enterprise, and they showed me a spirit of teamwork that I rarely see when we all WASPs run something. At times, I would take them out to dinner, I would witness intelligent, friendly, and emotionally charged discussions, but not for a moment I felt there was any hostility and blood feud among them ... with the strength and chemistry of this team, we always won big proposals and contracts, in the U.S., and abroad ... then, I was a senior executive at a blue chip U.S. company, involved in High Technology.
Be optimistic son, work for better days ahead, and if you look at our record level trade deficit under Bush, you would see we need to stop bombing indiscriminately, which only creates contempt and hate, and antithesis to globalization.
Ah ... I feel so much better now!
What BullShit!
In the history of warfare, never has any army prosecuted a war with such accuracy as our Military in Iraq! Resulting in the smallest amount on noncombatant casualties in the history of modern warfare!
Indiscriminate bombing is what the Clinton Administration did in Iraq, not the Bush Administration.
Your Warm fuzzy attitude about peace in that region is attainable, but only through strength. Muslim Arabs, Persians, Afghanis, etc. respond to strength. When Baghdad Bob was telling Arab TV that Iraq was kicking America's ass they were all behind Saddam, but when Arab TV broadcasted the American Military in Baghdad pissing on Saddam's statues while smoking Saddam's cigars, the Muslim world was instantly either silent or on the US's side!
It seems pretty obvious to me that kicking ass and taking names works pretty well in the region!
You are a hopeless racist ... you are also blind. It is a waste of my time to answer you, espeically, at the end of the thread that nobody but you sees it.
I hope you are not an American.
-- Modified on 1/20/2004 9:14:00 PM
Racist? How so?
I too have Muslim/Jewish employee's, vendors and clients. I too see them working well together... here in the U.S. Where they are not subjected daily to biased Al Jazeera TV and other such biased, myopic reporting and the fanatical Muslim leadership so rampant in the region.
I too have spent time in Lebanon, Iran, Israel and Syria (before the rise of Komeni) and witnessed a modicum of harmony.
Yes, I am a US citizen, a Viet Nam War veteran, business owner and a patriot.
Your knee jerk remark of "indiscriminate bombing" is just a outright lie. I note you made no attempt to defend your comment!
And spending $200 billion on "towards steps in bringing peace" sounds so "Polyannic" as to be just outright stupid in the shawdow of 9/11! I note that you make no attempt to enlighten us as to how you would have accomplished this idealic feat.
The fact that a militant percentage (no matter how small) of Muslim fanatics in the Middle East already "have contempt and hate us", and desire to destroy us, makes if obvious that spending money on them is folly. Public opinion in the Middle East is swayed by STRENGTH as proven by the fall of Saddam.
If globalization was the goal of the US, then we would now own the oil in Kuwait, we don't, the Kuwaities do!
Finally, your name calling is childish and exposes the true depth of your knowledge, not to mention your spine, or lack thereof!
Ace,
My reference to the history was to dispel a propoganda by that woman on TV that Islam is somehow an intolerant and backward religion, and to dispel a myth that truly needs to be erased that terrorism is born from religion. If someone said the crusades occured because of Christianity I would try to point out the flaw of the argument as well.
The problem is long in the making, very complicated, and everyone has a dirty hand in it. There is historical precedent for what I am about to say. After ww1, Germany lay barren, broke, poor, stripped of dignity, creating a political vaccum that allowed a Hitler to come to power. It took ww2 to gain the wisdom that it is in OUR national interest and the worlds interest to rebuild Europe and Germany after destroying. We made the WW1 mistake again in Afhanistan which allowed the Taliban to come in there and exploit the country and 9-11 happened.
One mistake led to WW2 and one to 9-11. The fact is that the battle doesn't have to be fought here like you say. First step is to stop supporting dictators and oppressive regimes in the Middle East, however, that can't happend bc they give us the OIL.
Recently a classified report came out stating that Nixon put our forces around the world on invasion alert ready to go into the Middle East and take over the oil fields in case the embargo situation deteriorated further. Imagine how much they would have loved us then. For years OIL is the reason we have supported, and created tyrants that have destroyed their societies. We don't share the entire blame, but we had a lot to do with it.
We didn't deserve 9-11, however unless there is a real change to the underlying economic forces of OIL, we will have to support those oppressive regimes and that oppression will churn out a 1000 young kids every day who hate me and you for it. And that is a realty you have to confront. Before anyone gets angry be honest first. How would you feel if a foreign country(say France, they are so easy to hate
came to the US, put a dictator in power in the White House that took our freedoms from us, suppressed our god given rights, all in the name of French "national security" interests. If the French gave that dictator the WMD's(popular word these days) to use on US citizens, then went around the world waving the flag of democracy. Try to answer that question honestly, and you have a lot of answers to your own questions.