Anyone here ever visit a provider and just go to cuddle and talk with the person? Just to enjoy that other person's company?
Should I ask the provider in person for this or over the phone?
And giving that advice as you did is not correct...not by a long shot.
If he pays a woman advertising on an escort mall...whether he fucks her or not would be immaterial.
You know better than that...don't you?
but that said, I am not aware of any law against advertising on an escort mall site, nor am I aware of any law that a person can not charge for her time to hold another person in his/her arms as long as their genitals and other naughty parts do not make contact.
However, I'm prepared to be corrected if anyone has the facts to do so.
~I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night~
Jokes aside, the "Escort" service is legal because it is not a solicitation for sex, you are paying for companionship, which has been upheld (People v. Johnson, 376 N.E.2d 381, 17 Ill.Dec. 382, 60 Ill.App.3d 183 (1978)), Bergen v. Wood, 14 Cal.App.4th 854 (1993), and Commonwealth v. Potts, 460 A.2d 1127, 314 Pa.Super. 256 (1983)
This is no different then hiring a model to look at.
The way the sex part works is, what happens between two consenting adults is legal. The caveat to this is, no talk of sex is allowed and their must be a "social barrier".
So, in other words, if you are an escort, you can not meet a client and then start rattling off prices, or things you do or do not do. If you do, you CAN be arrested for prostitution.
If your a John, same thing, you can't just start asking for sex.
This is the main reason why you ALWAYS put the money on the table first before any words are exchanged. As long as no words are exchanged about sex, at that point you have simply paid for the time, nothing more. Then you chat about non sex stuff (meeting the criteria for the social barrier), and then its fair game, as long as everyone is consensual.
With that said, If you as either a John or Escort are ever confronted with someone who starts rattling off prices, My advice, RUN. Just say sorry, you misunderstood the service and you are not interested and leave. Don't take the chance because it will probably be a LEO on the other side.
OK...you and fish can be co-counsel defending some hookers/johns LOL
If you end up in a room with LE...you're busted. It's quite simple. Plenty of evidence publicly for you to peruse.
As in most misdemeanor cases...it's not going to trial. You'll plead out...or better yet STFU and nothing else happens. However the outing is still there...and that's the gist of the issue here.
If YOU want to pretend it's something more..and that this is a legal business by putting up those disclaimers on a site...go for it.
When that happens...and that the hookers use their real names, real phone numbers...and the johns aren't using stupid names like TheHotGuy2014 to hide from what YOU and fisher are claiming...then we're all good.
Hey...I watch (play) sports just like you perhaps. Everything is spelled out as to what is "legal" and what isn't....but the reality is if it's not caught....it's all legal.
Let me know how the "cuddling" session with a hooker goes...no genital touching of course LOL
Jokes aside, the "Escort" service is legal because it is not a solicitation for sex, you are paying for companionship, which has been upheld (People v. Johnson, 376 N.E.2d 381, 17 Ill.Dec. 382, 60 Ill.App.3d 183 (1978)), Bergen v. Wood, 14 Cal.App.4th 854 (1993), and Commonwealth v. Potts, 460 A.2d 1127, 314 Pa.Super. 256 (1983)
This is no different then hiring a model to look at.
The way the sex part works is, what happens between two consenting adults is legal. The caveat to this is, no talk of sex is allowed and their must be a "social barrier".
So, in other words, if you are an escort, you can not meet a client and then start rattling off prices, or things you do or do not do. If you do, you CAN be arrested for prostitution.
If your a John, same thing, you can't just start asking for sex.
This is the main reason why you ALWAYS put the money on the table first before any words are exchanged. As long as no words are exchanged about sex, at that point you have simply paid for the time, nothing more. Then you chat about non sex stuff (meeting the criteria for the social barrier), and then its fair game, as long as everyone is consensual.
With that said, If you as either a John or Escort are ever confronted with someone who starts rattling off prices, My advice, RUN. Just say sorry, you misunderstood the service and you are not interested and leave. Don't take the chance because it will probably be a LEO on the other side.
So you read the case law?
no?, That's what I thought....
When it becomes legalized and you don't need to be TheHotGuy2014 anymore is when it'll matter.
But you be sure to use that case law at your next hearing when you decide to argue the merits of this misdemeanor. Hopefully you are a member of the Bar and can represent yourself...otherwise you'll be spending some coin for some other asshole to argue a losing case.
Next case bailiff.
no?, That's what I thought....
I trust you also agree that the disclaimers on hooker sites is for "time and companionship" is a viable defense as well?
Hey...it's all legal till you get caught.
I only see prostitutes who assure me that they won't touch my genitals. Don't you? 
As for running an ad on an escort mall site...sure. But using your circular logic then why are any of us using fake names, numbers and such. It's all legal...you said so LOL
However, I'm prepared to be corrected if anyone has the facts to do so.
but, some things are just not that risky to discuss.
I mean applying your logic, we'd never ever make contact in the first place.
For example, it is generally agreed that there is nothing wrong with a clothing request, so is asking for a hug or a cuddle that much more out of line?
I guess the best advice is do what you are comfortable with so long as no specific mention of sex for money is made.
Is simply on the advertising portion of the venue.
Honestly...and you know...running an ad on Eros (or any escort mall) is a rather compelling bit of evidence that a gal is seeking money for sex. All those moronic disclaimers are idiotic. So if some gal wants to pretend she's selling only "time and companionship" in the guise of "cuddling"...no problem. But to post that it's "perfectly legal"...it is to run that ad. It won't be should LE decide to bust her and her johns. YOU know that.
Getting a solicitation/prostitution conviction is not important from LE's perspective. It's also NOT their job to get a conviction. That's up to the DA/SA. And for most dudes here (as well as gals)...I'd like to believe that the majority know that in any form this is an illegal activity.
Sometimes the best advice is none at all.
I mean applying your logic, we'd never ever make contact in the first place.
For example, it is generally agreed that there is nothing wrong with a clothing request, so is asking for a hug or a cuddle that much more out of line?
I guess the best advice is do what you are comfortable with so long as no specific mention of sex for money is made.
Again, read the case law on the subject.
If a escort advertises that the ad is not a solicitation of prostitution and law enforcement contacts her and tries to press her for sex act costs; as long as she says no there is no crime.
Same thing with a John; if he is in a room with a LEO and that LEO begins rattling out prices for sex and the john says No thank you, there is no crime. No matter how much the LEO wants to arrest you, they can't until you verbally (to include writing) agree to exchange money for sex acts.
There is very little grey area except with the "Social Barrier" requirement. Hence why the (responsible) girls talk about anything but sex when they meet a client for the first time and why LEO's will always solicit/initiate sex talk and prices.
If your going to play the game you should learn how to stay safe in it.
If you show up to an LE sting, it won't matter what you are there for, they can and still will arrest you. Convict you??? That's a different matter, but to say that they CAN NOT arrest you shows your naivety on the subject.
and if you are going to act like a jail house lawyer please don't make inane statements like "until you verbally (to include writing) agree" It shows your lack of education, and poor command of the English language.
If you are going to "teach" the game, you should go "rent a clue" first. Some of us have decades of experience in the subject, and that trumps anything you might have read in a textbook or watched on Law and Order.
As I told Dr who, go to a symposium on human trafficking, which directly feeds the underground sex industry; and find out what the actual law requires them to do.
As for the difference between Arrest and Convict, seriously, your going to nitpick over something that is so blatantly obvious what I was referring to? Really? Really!!?
You can be arrested for ANYTHING at ANYTIME and held for 24 hours; everyone who has half a brain, lives in the US and pays even remote attention knows that.
What was it that Jon Stewart said last week.... CONTEXT!
Under the CONTEXT of what I was referring to, Arrest meant Convict. With that said, as I explained elsewhere, if you are offered sex for money and you turn it down and walk away, they have no legal basis to Arrest you; and since it is being video taped, the likelihood that they will try is low. As, again if you talk to a LEO who works in sex crimes will tell you, they give you one chance to walk away. The second you take the bait, there is nothing you can say or do that will get you out of it.
Decades of experience only means nothing other than you have not gotten caught yet. Thats like saying I speed all the time and have never gotten a ticket so I must be a master driver with some sort of mystical powers of invisibility.
Then perhaps you'll understand the context in which we are discussing.
You will end up as one of those putzes that won't STFU as your Uncle Leo is taking you in...you babbling away about cases and that Perry Mason is a great lawyer. Then you'll argue that you need to freshen up prior to your mug shot. And of course that you would like a nice holding cell with cable.
I also suggest that LE will find more shit to keep you around as entertainment...since you have such colorful views on how this game is actually played.
As you said...YOU need to understand the rules of this game...or you will find yourself explaining to a judge these cases your presenting as citations. And he'll laugh at you...order some community service and have you pay the jurisdictional fine for solicitation along with court costs.
How about you call your local LE and ask them about this? Maybe then you'll get it!
BTW...cuddling will be allowed while you're held overnight. Maybe not what you had in mind however.
If a escort advertises that the ad is not a solicitation of prostitution and law enforcement contacts her and tries to press her for sex act costs; as long as she says no there is no crime.
Same thing with a John; if he is in a room with a LEO and that LEO begins rattling out prices for sex and the john says No thank you, there is no crime. No matter how much the LEO wants to arrest you, they can't until you verbally (to include writing) agree to exchange money for sex acts.
There is very little grey area except with the "Social Barrier" requirement. Hence why the (responsible) girls talk about anything but sex when they meet a client for the first time and why LEO's will always solicit/initiate sex talk and prices.
If your going to play the game you should learn how to stay safe in it.
Who said anything about trying to talk your way out of it? If your unable to comprehend what you read, there are programs out there that can help. I never once advocated for trying to talk your way out of it. Because if you are at the point where you are trying to talk your way out of it, it's already game over.
I simply pointed out what is required for an Arrest (+ Conviction). If you are in a room with a LEO during a sting and you do not take the bait when they offer up prices for sex, they have to let you go. Those are the rules that they are required by law to play by.
Don't believe me, maybe ~you~ should go ask someone who works in undercover operations what their rules of engagement are; I've taken part in numerous sex trafficking symposiums hosted by Law Enforcement, they are usually free to attend. There is a reason why all of it is video taped now, because there has to be clear proof, beyond a reasonable doubt that an exchange of sex for money was being done. Just showing up and knocking on the door does not meet that requirement.
RIF
Good luck with your quest...I know that you are well meaning.
But you are wrong...maybe YOU need to ask LE, SA and DA what will happen. Apparently you still think that Uncle would let you walk. That is just not the case...but you go right on believing what you will.
Actually there are some here who have friends in places that actually understand the laws...what the rules of evidence are. As well as how the DA/SA works in conjunction with local LE. I doubt you know anyone in that field...but you probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express which makes you the authority when the rest of the monger world knows the reality.
I'll be sure to pass on to those johns that didn't take the "bait" that you'll be happy to represent them at hearing. They'll be thrilled LOL I'm sure you'll also point out to the magistrates/judges that LE isn't playing correctly. Perhaps you should also comment to the judge/magistrate they have to also play by YOUR interpretation of the rules. I'm sure they'll be duly impressed.
It's morons like you that make it difficult for those who want the facts to discern between bullshit and reality.
Now what were you babbling about an arrest? Oh yeah...now you want to qualify that there has to be a conviction. Yep...you are conflicted.
Now go and tell Santa that you want to meet the Easter Bunny.
I simply pointed out what is required for an Arrest (+ Conviction). If you are in a room with a LEO during a sting and you do not take the bait when they offer up prices for sex, they have to let you go. Those are the rules that they are required by law to play by.
Don't believe me, maybe ~you~ should go ask someone who works in undercover operations what their rules of engagement are; I've taken part in numerous sex trafficking symposiums hosted by Law Enforcement, they are usually free to attend. There is a reason why all of it is video taped now, because there has to be clear proof, beyond a reasonable doubt that an exchange of sex for money was being done. Just showing up and knocking on the door does not meet that requirement.
RIF
First you say if you don't agree to pay for sex in a sting they can't arrest you. Then when GaG calls you on that blatant foolishness you say obviously you meant "convict" not "arrest." Well, pardon us for taking your words on their plain meaning.
Next, and despite the above, you write this tripe: "If you are in a room with a LEO during a sting and you do not take the bait when they offer up prices for sex, they have to let you go."
Well, no, they don't and they won't. They will arrest you, then lie in their testimony and try to get you to cop a plea to a lesser offense. That's just the way it works.
So now no doubt you'll tell us all that you plainly meant not "they have to let you go," but "they may arrest you but after they can't prove their case they have to let you go." Which is also untrue, of course.
Please stop your verbal contortions before you injure yourself. Also remember the old adage, "the first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging." So please, drop that shovel now.
Then take a course in basic English
surely they wouldn't arrest a guy who's "bonafide hot," they'd just assume the girl was head over heels for him...even if he doesn't have the education to know that "bona fide" is two words...
Your reviews are priceless...
I think you have better understanding of legal issues than the statement that you just made.
-- Modified on 11/20/2014 11:50:45 PM
but yeah, he did kind of miss the boat on this one.
I think you should tell her in advance. Make it clear that you expect to pay her full rate. But do tell her because not everyone is affectionate like that. Some women may only feel comfortable with having sex and get creeped out with the intimacy of cuddling
I won't swear that there was a time that that we never had sex; but there were at least a few multi-night dates where all we did was cuddle in bed for one reason or another. And I enjoyed those experiences very much.
Did you tell the provider before hand?
I have since gotten over it and now experience my sessions in a more physically interactive way
Thank you however for reminding me what a sick world it is out there.
There are a few providers that I have looked forward to that part of the date because they are that interesting and that sweet.
I like my sex intense, and so it's nice to be able to curl up together and decompress during the down time. More often than not, I find that I really like the women I have seen, and I have TER to thank for that success rate as if you read enough reviews of a lady you can pretty much telll if you'll be compatible, and/or she is going to make you feel as if you are compatible.
I've always enjoyed the intimacy of cuddling, so why not enjoy it with a beautiful woman.
That said, there are those providers that rock my world, but it's clear that they aren't interested in the cuddling or intimate part, and that's fine too. Either way, I want to feel like I have to pull the sheets out of my ass when I'm done. I'm very happy with providers that make me feel that way.
Obviously I don't know the particulars of this business, but I think the general premise is still valid. Unless of course I truly am the only member of the male gender who doesn't spend every waking moment concerned with the real estate for my penis.
What makes you think that it is less work to cuddle than to screw? The intimacy can be more taxing than sex. Sure it is rewarding but a great orgasm can also be satisfying. The
but that's just me, time is still time, and some women would rather have sex than cuddle, just like most men. I can see why many women would want to charge just as much for "cuddling" as they do for any other activity.
See, we don't disagree on everything. lol
As a man, I obviously can not see this from a provider's perspective. If you wouldn't mind going into further detail about what you mean, I'd be very interested in what you have to say.
Some people have charisma.
Some people are brilliant.
In this business, brilliance is rare, to nonexistent.
Charisma is uncommon. When I've found providers with it, then the hanging out is a majority reason for me to see them. Even if they have just a little bit of it. That's just me.
I'd love to cuddle with a provider if I could find one in Boston
For me personally making an intimate connection with a stranger comes easily but this is not the norm for most people. This is a skill that I have developed in my journey to have more empathy for people. Sex is the easiest part of the job. Anyone can do that. But to be truly present for someone, to peacefully care for a stranger takes emotional strength and inner peace. Quieting the mind and listening with your soul is a special gift that not everyone is willing to give
That's a good way of putting it. I think some people think we just lay there and get humped. But really we don't just use our body. We use our mind. We have to be (the overused phrase) "the complete package".
There are millions of hot girls in this biz. But to make guys come back you really have to stand out and shine. I'm naturally shy but I put that aside so I can make him feel comfortable and entertain, flirt, listen, focus and relate...just let my personality come out.
No cuddling, just talking. He didn't tell me in advance but I was fine with it. We had a really interesting conversation. He had started seeing providers because he was writing a book about how to grow weed and used the providers to model in the photos. interestingl guy...
Anyways basically whatever the gentleman wants to do with our time (within my boundaries) is fine with me...I just want them to be happy.
You didn't have to suck or fuck some old balls and you still got coin.
Fess up here. You were giggling the entire trip to the bank with his loot, weren't you?
Fess up here. You were giggling the entire trip to the bank with his loot, weren't you?
...I'm all for it as part of the session.
He's BA-ack! And you made me do it
...as so many providers' websites claim is a large portion of the reason why I hobby. Which is why I usually go for appointments well in excess of the typical two hours.
I've never done only cuddling and talking, but there's always some amount of time for that, either before the fun stuff starts, or in between rounds one and two, or something.
Several of my favorite providers do offer social rates, which are quite heftily discounted from their usual rate. If all you want is a companion for dinner or a show, that kind of thing is out there. And I've always enjoyed those kinds of dates as well.
All I seem to get is a quickie and endless cuddling.
I'll trade you all my cuddling time for some good, as I read in another post, "sheets stuck between my ass cheeks" sex (or something like that).
I fear, as the quote goes, "you're doing it wrong." (@_@