If someone gave your SO info on how best to cheat on you, you'd be pissed at that guy/girl if you found out. Of course your main point of contention would be with the GF, and I realize that, but you wouldn't be thrilled with the helper, correct?
Lets say it was a neighbor who knew your work schedule and she told your GF that "Curly just left, its ok to bring Morton over" now. In other words, there is at least SOME hypocrisy with this, isn't there? Now I am not going to get up on a high moral horse and say people shouldn't do it, but I think pointing out the hypocritical nature of it is at least interestingOk this question pops up on the newbie board a few times a month or so where someone asks how they can improve their chances of not getting caught cheating in p4p with their SO.
How does this board feel about that? I mean, would any of us want someone else to give our SO ideas on how to cheat on us?
Let me say I am not bashing anyone on that board for answering the question. That's their biz. But many here claim that people should act honorably, decently and kindly to others here and p4p in general, yet on that issue, it doesn't apply?
Yes I well understand that many of the girls clients are married and that it benefits them financially to give ideas on how best to cheat and not get caught...but the question remains....should we do it or should they figure it out by themselves?
Does it make us, in any way, complicit by giving the advice?
On these boards, people conduct themselves as they do. Personally, I would not collude to break any trusting innocent's heart. But that's me. I don't expect others to have the same ethical code. However, I find it odd, on these boards, that anyone gives value to the notion of deciding what others "should" do.
First of all, none of us subscribe to a consensus moral code. We each draw different boundaries.
Second, you're asking should we agree to not give advice on cheating, implies we adopt the decision as a principle of behavior. But, that would be an arbitrary choice, hence an arbitrary principle of how to behave.
Result, we're each picking and choosing our "principles" for our actions, we are all making arbitrary decisions as to what principles we adopt.
But, since they are arbitrary principles, each person would be just as well off to decide on a case by case basis how s/he will act or react in any given situation. One might opt to give Jim advice on how best to cheat and later refuse to give Bob any advice on the topic at all. This approach is in fact every bit as appropriate as consistently refusing to give such advice based on an arbitrary principle.
this is a hobby site, why wouldn't we share ideas on how to hobby without getting burned? And doesn't cheating account for a huge share of the total GNP of Hobbyland?
OK, back to Philosophy. If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does the crash make a sound? If a married couple has no sex for years and the man of the house goes a-hobbying, has there been a cheat?
is he still wrong?
Just having fun, doll!
But when considering quantum theory, the answer becomes that unless a woman is there, there actually isn't even a man to say anything.
weird, ain't it?
and it all depends on whether the pussy gets out of the box.
reportedly set up house with both his wife AND his mistress, who actually were two different people.
Don't you chime in stating what others should do at times? Haven't you stated that people shouldn't negotiate a girls rate?
Many people here have expressed that thought and you are not alone, but isn't that a form of hypocrisy?
As for my OP, no where do I state what others should or shouldn't do, I merely ask the question. No, I don't participate in those threads as I draw the line there, as we all do with something IRL and p4p.
I don't give such advice because I'm not cheating on anybody when I play, so I don't have any first-hand knowledge to share on that. And the topic seems odious and boring. The point is, it seems fine to decide whether or not to answer or comment on a case to case basis. If someone proposes that his will never find out where he's going if drives his truck down the wrong way on a one-way street, I might comment on that. I won't decide now to never relate to such posts on principle, though, because that decision would have no more significance than a decision I'd make when looking at the OP.
Everyone, including even the providers I assume, is going to have their own perspective on the actions of the attached men that make a large percentage of this community.
Your choice of words ('complicit', 'honorably, 'kind', etc) makes it clear you lean towards disapproval of those actions. In the big picture, I think the issue is a lot less black-and-white than you are seeing it. There's a large contingent that agrees that P4P is significantly more honorable and decent than having an affair. It's been expressed many times that P4P fills some sort of gap or provides an escape that can keep a man in an otherwise devoted relationship. From that perspective, providing those tips is actually helping to protect the SO's from hurt. Obviously there are some men who just can't control themselves and do this out of pure narcissism and self-indulgence, but honestly, those are probably the ones who had already figured out how to cheat anyway.
Personally, I'm single and have never cheated while in a LTR. That's just my own code. But I also know it's not the only way to look at it and that there are lots of legitimate reasons to stray while married. I don't give anyone advice on how to not get caught because I'm fortunate in not having had to learn how to do it.
and I suspect most guys on here feel the same.
If it bothers you, then just don't participate.
All's fair in love and war.
Mr.Fisher- I can careless that you are a cheater. It doesn't adversely effect my life. I was just saying if you are married and you see a provider you are a CHEATER ! Dishonest and unethical. Do you want to urge that? Your a smart man so you know you can't, unless your wife says "honey, I don't want to have sex with your fat, old ass anymore, please go pay for it" If that the case you are game to go !! It's Now NOT cheating in my book
In any case, I'd gladly wear the title of "cheater" if it makes you feel better, but I am not morally affected that I have seen escorts without my wife's permission.
I also accept the dishonest label, but not the unethical one. There is a wide gulf between the two tags which a moment's reflection will reveal.
Men got to screw. Wives often don't like it. So there is the hobby.
Deal with it.
What is the point of registering moral indignation about married men seeing escorts anyways?
If Pope (Who am I too Judge?) Francis I can get over the gay thing, then you'd think we degenerates would have better things to do than point fingers at each other.
Good points though.
And, btw, I like the new Fish. Any chance he sticks around? 
Take a look at me at about 1:45 below.
I'll take Ren any day
Have to say Jack, you would be the last guy I would expect to have mixed feelings on this particular subject. I would say that I dont have a huge issue on this front. Mainly because what they do with said advice is their choice not mine. They're going to do it anyway. The lady or guy in question is going to cheat, regardless of what we say or do. They've already crossed the border.
If you are married and you are fucking other women you are a CHEAT, unethical, and a CHEATER. Let's call it what it is....If it smells like a fish, it's a fish. I'm single so I have no issues being with a provider, in fact, it works better for me because it's on my schedule and time. Plus no strings attached. Once you got married you tied the knot with a women and gave her your trust, honesty, and values that you would NOT be a cheater. When you were placing that ring on her finger 25 years ago were you thinking about your next date with a Provider? If so, you are sick and need to get your head examined. Plus you just made the WORST financial/business decision you have ever made. You just gave up 50% of your net worth.
I acquired 50% of her net worth...
that many people consider you immoral and unethical for having sex with dozens of women for money?
No, you probably don't because the only PoV you recognize is your own.
Thus you could never comprehend that many married guys who hobby do so out of love for their wives. Because hobbying is the best (or least bad) option available, if they want to have some kind of intimacy with a woman without hurting their wives and families.
But maybe you could think for a minute before you call someone you know nothing about unethical, or sick.
Ok, what does that have to do with me exactly?
If a guy has a girlfriend or wife and hobbies, this is his personal business.
Just like if a provider has a husband or partner, this is her personal business.
It's called a hobby for a reason, unless he or she can't handle it or falls in love with someone in the hobby.
Then they have to ask themselves, if this hobby is worth hurting their other personal relationship outside the hobby?
So everybody is different and each person in this hobby, knows their own personal limits.
Morality as it relates to fidelity in relationships is above our pay grade. While we may not choose to cheat on our partners, we all are aware that we are dealing with people on and off the board that have partners. Some providers we see, may have boyfriends that are unaware of their providing, and in most cases, its a fair assumption that hobbyists are hobbying w/o their wives' knowledge.
Who am I to judge why they are tapping strange pussy.. If someone asks me for advice, as they have in the past, and will in the future, how to hide their extra curricular activities, I will gladly give it to them.
If someone gave your SO info on how best to cheat on you, you'd be pissed at that guy/girl if you found out. Of course your main point of contention would be with the GF, and I realize that, but you wouldn't be thrilled with the helper, correct?
Lets say it was a neighbor who knew your work schedule and she told your GF that "Curly just left, its ok to bring Morton over" now.
In other words, there is at least SOME hypocrisy with this, isn't there?
Now I am not going to get up on a high moral horse and say people shouldn't do it, but I think pointing out the hypocritical nature of it is at least interesting
If you feel that we do, then by your own reasoning, we would also be duty bound to try and alert the wife about her husband's transgression. Now, if you are acquainted with both parties and your friend is asking you to help him cheat, that's a different, icky situation.
I'd be pissed off at my hypothetical future wife's best friend for helping her cheat on me....But the setting for that communication is the outside world, which operates on a different moral code.
The setting for me helping JackDunphy or some other board member get laid when he comes to DC, by hooking him with my ATF, is a different social setting. Its a more controlled setting. I somehow feel obligated to help because I have been helped in the past. So in this world not helping would be somewhat disrespectful to the code of conduct. But again, we joined this world by choice...
I agree its a fucked up and convoluted world of mongers and hookers we live in.. I completely agree.
-- Modified on 10/29/2014 1:06:54 PM
Like a few others here, I am not married and never cheated when I was, but I try very hard not to be judgmental about such things here, and I agree there is a HUGE difference between giving advice on how to cheat to strangers on the internet and telling your buddies wife how to get away with it. Although I confess, I rarely give much advice on how "not to get caught" as it's not really some I have any first hand experience in, nor do I care to.
I do think the topic is a lot more interesting than another "dick size" thread though. Good OP Jack.
There are some guys whose wives won't have sex with them any more. Sex being a normal human need, they have every right to get it elsewhere. If either partner refuses the other's legitimate needs it is, to me, breaking a fundamental part of the marriage contract. So no hypocrisy there.
Also, what's so fuckng sacred about marriage vows? Half of all marriages end in divorce anyway. To me, marriage is an institution that has outlived its traditional usefulness.
As I said above, I never played around when I was married (twice), but I have no issues with people who do, as long as they are careful and don't expose their spouse to disease or public embarrassment.
I can definitely empathize with the women who get hurt because, as a kid, I found out how deception in a marriage can have disastrous effects on so many others, possibly for the rest of their lives. If marriage means anything it has to be based on trust. As a fellow hobbyist I try not to judge others because I don't know them or their situation...but I'd feel very differently if any of my married female relatives, especially my sisters, had to deal with husbands who cheat. Just my two cents worth from a happily single guy.
Every time you write a review or pass on a tip you're furthering your complicity. So it seems to me the bridge you're describing has long since been crossed.
Very interesting thread - cant resist keeping it going.
The question has seemed to bring out some real venom towards attached men with the rationale that we shouldn't be aiding and abetting the hurt of an innocent SO.
What about the providers on the other side of the equation? They have fathers, mothers, kids, friends, SOs, other work/school relationships that could be just as devastated by a bad turn in the hobby as a busted husband. Aren't we helping the potential hurt of those folks every we time see or recommend a provider? We seem to assume that they're all-in all-the-time and their work persona is their whole life.
Not at all saying providers need to be 'saved' or judged - just trying to make the point that both sides of P4P have come up with their own rationale for doing it, and its a good thing that both sides have somewhere to turn for advice on how to do it safely and keep it where it belongs in their lives.
-- Modified on 10/29/2014 1:32:36 PM
-- Modified on 10/29/2014 2:03:13 PM
I'm not saying that I agree....I'm just saying if it smells like fish, it's a fish. I can care less if you are a cheater, unethical, dishonest...That's your life and you have to look at yourself and your wife in the mirror every morning not me. I'm just called it the way people (normal people) would see it. You can hobby all you like....I love it, it's great. You get to get laid, I get it.
As a proud member of the whole fish fraternity of fishy names (Fish, Fisher, Fishest, etc.) I would rather see this uninformed and anti-fish cliché retired.
Pick on something else for a while, please.
Maybe invoke Shakespeare's reference to Denmark made by his Mr. Marcellus in his play, Hamlet. It would class things up a bit, don't you think?
that particular person.
Funny though, that person doesn't look exactly like this Luca.
I always wonder at the stereotypical reaction of the cuckolded husband taking his anger out on the other guy or the woman spitting venom at the other woman. In my opinion, if the spouse cheats, he or she cheats. It doesn't really matter who he or she is cheating with or how or what facilitated it. The newbie asking for advice has already crossed the line and is asking those likeminded for advice. For those of us who may have some experience in what he is going through, giving advice is merely "paying it forward". We are not forcing or enabling him in the sense of talking him down a path of sin--he has already decided to do that himself (whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not). For those who cannot relate to his situation, feel free to ignore his request. I see this situation as quite similar to those which pop up quite frequently about burner phones and computer search engine advice. Many inquiring about these are equally as concerned about an SO finding out about their activities as they are about LE involvement. If I have learned anything over the past few years I have been in this community, we all have our issues, so "live and let live". No judgments...unless you prove yourself to be a douche. Then the gloves come off... (I am speaking generally and not calling anyone in this forum a douche...please do not misinterpret my speaking freely here.)
Simply by being smart about P4P.
How does this board feel about that? I mean, would any of us want someone else to give our SO ideas on how to cheat on us?
Let me say I am not bashing anyone on that board for answering the question. That's their biz. But many here claim that people should act honorably, decently and kindly to others here and p4p in general, yet on that issue, it doesn't apply?
Yes I well understand that many of the girls clients are married and that it benefits them financially to give ideas on how best to cheat and not get caught...but the question remains....should we do it or should they figure it out by themselves?
Does it make us, in any way, complicit by giving the advice?
All this deep ethical shit is making my head hurt. But it has reminded me of a great story involving quite the ethical dilemma. When I have ladies over, they often ask how I came through the divorce with the house. So ...
I loved this house. Wanted to stay in the worst way. Offered the ex all kinds of incentives on her side of the settlement if I could get the house. She didn't really care - but - because she knew I wanted it - she dug in. "NO WAY".
When the papers were signed - she gave me 3 days to get my stuff out before the new boyfriend moved in.
Last night in the house. Everything was boxed and packed - and I sat down to have my last meal there. Went all out with a seafood feast and a bottle of my favorite cabernet.
After finishing off the bottle (an important fact to remember INHO) - I took leftover crabmeat, shrimp, and shrimp cocktail, mashed it up and stuffed it into the curtain rods.
OK - I know. Not too mature.
But I was really pissed (and the bottle was empty). It was kind of a parting "fuck you".
A few months later I heard from a mutual friend that she and the boyfriend had moved back to his place and put the house up for sale. Pissed again. "How could she?'
But my friend explained that he understood that the house had developed quite an odor. Said she had tried everything to get rid of it (new carpet, cleaned out the ductwork, repainted the walls, etc) - but nothing worked. It was so bad that no realtor would list it - and no prospects could stand to be in the place for more than a few minutes.
Uh Oh! Feeling bad.
Until - the next morning, got a call from the ex. Said she was really sorry about how things had gone down and wanted to make it up to me. Said she had her attorney draw up new papers where I could have the house after all - if I gave her equal credit in other assets (less than I had previously offered) - but that the deal was only available if I went to the attorney's office and signed that day.
Hmmm. The Ethical Dilemma rears its head!
I told her things weren't going so well - I would do it - but only if the credit was only a small percentage of the actual value. But, that offer was only available if she signed that day.
Surprise! She met me at the attorney's office in an hour.
I gave her 3 days to get her stuff out.
She took everything that wasn't nailed down - and lots that was (including the new carpet).
To spite me - she even took the curtain rods.
Had to smile
I never cheated on my ex (who was cheating on me). I never cheated in my current marriage until she totally shut the intamicy off. No touching, no kissing, no cuddling, & especially no sex. It has belatedly occured to me that she simply doesn't like it & never has... has been avoiding for the last 25 years. I'm not ready to become totally celibate yet... so I decided to go outside. It's not something I ever wanted.
Us passing judgement, or offering help and advice to a fellow human being? I think the "ethical" choice here is pretty clear, however others may disagree.
Everyone's situation or circumstance is different and also, pretty much, unknown to us.
Realistically, isn't it a better outcome for ALL parties involved, including the providers, if the SO does NOT find out? I can't think of anything good resulting from the SO finding out, which of course a good reason to carefully consider even starting the hobby. But once the ketchup is out of the bottle, you may as well have a few fries with it instead of trying to put it back in. And even if you think someone has already made a poor decision, why make it worse?