whether she is being mistreated is another question.
Certainly she is not making the kind of money that an independent or even an agency gal is making, but consider what opportunities lie for her (or the lack thereof) in her native land.
If your conscience bothers you to see a person like that, then don't see her. But you don't have to feel sorry for her. Odds are she is much better off than many gals slaving away for peanuts back where she is from.
I got a massage recently from a well reviewed "Indy" provider and it got me thinking.
She's from Latin America, works out of an empty condo that has 2 rooms with a massage table in each. She was great and the sex was amazing, but all along she had a dead look in her eyes. Now this could be all because of my ugly ass however it got me thinking.
How do you tell is she's an unwilling victim? Any ladies out there been through this?
I want to think that the this gets less and less likely the higher the girls rate is, but I wouldn't be shocked if that wasn't the case at all. And it's not like the media is going to publish a story about human trafficking and then have a section "how to make sure your provider is genuine"
Lastly, what do you do if you suspect she is doing this against her will? Back out and give her some cash? Anonymous tip
whether she is being mistreated is another question.
Certainly she is not making the kind of money that an independent or even an agency gal is making, but consider what opportunities lie for her (or the lack thereof) in her native land.
If your conscience bothers you to see a person like that, then don't see her. But you don't have to feel sorry for her. Odds are she is much better off than many gals slaving away for peanuts back where she is from.
If a woman is being sexually trafficked, she's not doing it of her own free will. It's sexual slavery. So it's ok if she's not being mistreated? What does that mean anyway? Do you mean as long as she's not being beaten up? What about raped but not beaten up? Because one of the first things that happened when they get here is they are broken in order to control them. That usually involves a real "special" initiation process.
Sexual slavery is slavery and just because she comes from some impoverished country doesn't make it less wrong. Do you REALLY think a woman being trafficked gets any of the money? Many times a woman is threatened with things like her family back home being killed if she tries to run.. These women HAVE to do what they are told to do. As many guys as possible every day. You must have no idea of the mental scars left by this kind of thing.
If she were here of her on free will, maybe getting HALF of the money as hers to do with what she pleases that would be one thing but the kind of trafficking the OP was worried about ain't that kind I don't think. These women are brainwashed and preyed upon.
You comment about she's probably off better this way lets me know you don't really get it. She not getting anything but bad food, cheap little outfits to wear for work and little odds and ends as whoever it doing this to her sees fit. It's a nasty disgusting business. All of their personal belongings, identification, EVERYTHING is taken for them so they won't run. They don't have any choices about who they see.
Taking away someone's freedom like that is horrible. Just because she'd be making "peanuts" back home doesn't make it ok. Not if she's here not on her own accord.
What your saying reminds me of slavery in the south in that it wasn't "so bad" if you were owned by a decent master. It COULD be worse...
SMH at this one Fisher.
I have gotten to know 2 Korean gals quite well who were brought to the US to be sex workers one over a period of about 12 years. We would meet monthly and do frequent multi-day dates. I even met her siblings and friends, so I think I can speak with some authority on her situation, at least. The other I knew for about 5 years, and would from time to time talk with a lawyer who represented her interests. He reached out to me (freaking me out initially), because she told him that I was a person she trusted, and she asked him to call me so that I would know he would be a resource if I ever felt a need for one concerning her. It was an odd relationship, but I came to feel that both of the were sincere.
Their conditions were, while not quite up to snuff legally (They bivouacked on the floor of the back room of the AMP most nights.) were, and are, in fact, a lot better than the lot they left in Korea.
One of them saved enough money to go to school eventually and learn English pretty well. She also got a car and a nice apartment. She plans to run a business, an AMP, actually.
I think it is important to never see things in black and white when it comes to these matters.
Certainly rape is a very serious form of mistreatment, but how often it occurs is something we won't know. Same with beatings but that is something that would probably be visible, and I have seen scant evidence of that. (mental scars, perhaps)
Why sex work should be viewed any differently than the great mistreatment of foreign worker, undocumented or otherwise, is beyond me. The media loves the salaciousness of the sex work angle, so that gets played up obviously. We hear a lot less about farm workers, people in fisheries, meat plants, or factories where any complaints are met with swift retribution. Again, these people are all trafficked, but most likely here because conditions in their homeland are far, far worse. Here at least they earn enough money to be able to send some home and support their families there.
If we eschew sex workers on account of being trafficked, then we might as well give up all the other products that trafficked persons provide for us.
Sorry if this disrupts people's sensibilities, but that is the way it is.
for instance, many AMP girls "choose" to sleep in the AMP rather than go home, not because they are forced to, but for the same reason that a busy executive might spend the night on his couch in the office, or in the case of many "real" investment bankers (not RT) who routinely work 20 hour days, several days in a row sleeping "at work".
This list of things that white people think PROVES sexual slavery goes on and on, and the number of women truly trafficked, as in "here against her will, and not profiting from the relationship" while they do exist are miniscule.
FWIW My sample size is much, much larger than mrfishers, but by and large I agree with his assessment. If these women were truly sex slaves, why have I been able to have so many "real" relationships with them? Sex slaves certainly can not "date" OTC.
Were these women brought here against their will, did they have their vias/passports taken away? With examples you just gave, it sounds like these women were receiving a cut from the AMPs. What you saw doesn't sound like what the OP described to me. But who knows I wasn't there. And again, these women being piles one on top of the other sleeping on the floor in a back room at night...even IF that's better than what they had in Korea DOESN'T make it right HERE.
AND what he saw may or may not have been actual human trafficking.
And you don't have to tell me about the horrors that go on in some of these factories. Do you want to talk about the lost women of Juarez? Or do you want to talk about the factories in Asia where they've had to put bars on the windows to keeps to workers from jumping to their death? I'm not talking outta my ass here.
What you won't hear me say is something like "well at least they are working somewhere, and the cost of living in these countries is so low that the pitiful wages they do get are justified. It's better than nothing."
Sorry if this disrupts your sensibilities but that's the way it is.
-- Modified on 10/11/2014 9:03:28 AM
piling on top of each other, sleeping on the floor is a CHOICE, not a necessity. Many of these women have perfectly good apartments to go home to, but choose to spend most nights at work due to the long hours, and being "on call" all hours of the day and night.
I don't expect white people to understand this but sleeping six to a room for many asians is not considered a hardship at all, and sleeping on the floor is also preferable to many asian women over sleeping on what they consider a "too soft" western bed. A lot of what most American people think of as "hardship" is simply a cultural difference.
Please don't cheapen the horrors of true human trafficking by confusing it with women who simply have different ideas of what is or is not a "hardship" It smacks of racism, is highly counterproductive to stopping real human trafficking and quite frankly it is rather insulting to the women who are here to make a better life for themselves.
My point, as amplified very ably by GG is that there is a continuum from the person who knows exactly what they are getting into and does it by choice, and is generally well treated (perhaps not up to legal snuff, but that's another matter) all the way to some who is shanghaied and treated abhorrently.
We can guess and make assumptions, and that is all.
Nothing you have said by the way has offended my sensibilities, and I appreciate your candor. I respect you too much to feel otherwise.
Certainly, there are some cases that are really sexual slavery as you describe, and this is the type of situation that the fund raisers to rescue these victims like to describe. But, when they give statistics on the number of victims, they seem to use a much broader definition of trafficking that includes women like the friends that Mr. Fisher describes. These girls are probably seriously mistreated to get them into the business. But once they are in, they realize that they are good at it and they become willing participants. If you look at this from the pimp's point-of-view, this is probably a better situation than the sexual slavery situation that you describe. It takes less effort on the pimp's part if their providers are at least partly self-motivated, and the self-motivation probably makes the providers more attractive to clients.
If you want to compare it to slavery, a better comparison might be the slaves who stayed on the plantations as paid workers after the civil war. They were still subject to discrimination and weren't automatically treated fairly, but they did make the choice that continuing to work on the plantations was their best option.
The OP's question was about what to do about providers that he suspects are trafficking victims. It is hard to know what a trafficking victims other options are and whether she is subject to the sort of treatment that you describe. If it really is a sexual slavery situation, then it might be sensible to call the cops. That might possibly help these girls. On the other hand, many vice cops are in the business so that they can coerce freebies from the prostitutes that they arrest. So, calling the cops may just add to the number of abusers that the victim has to deal with. A better solution is probably to find an agency or charity that specializes in rescuing trafficking victims, and to try to make the potential victims aware of these organizations. Then let her decide if she really wants to get out of her current situation.
It's hardly necessary to trick anyone into coming to this country and making ten years salary at a regular job back home, in a single year sucking American dick. There are girls lined up begging for the opportunity to better themselves financially and help their families in the process.
If you want to look for people who are trafficked, you will find a lot more of the in the garment district than you will in the red light district.
I really can't believe that people here of all places, people who really should know better, actually buy into this bullshit propagated by a sensationalist media, religious pukes, and politicians pandering for votes by being "tough of crime"
That surprises me LOL
If you want to look for people who are trafficked, you will find a lot more of the in the garment district than you will in the red light district.
I really can't believe that people here of all places, people who really should know better, actually buy into this bullshit propagated by a sensationalist media, religious pukes, and politicians pandering for votes by being "tough of crime"
Cut me some slack, I haven't had a single shot of tequila yet and it's pushing 9:30 AM here in Costa Rica, but don't feel too sorry for me just yet. I plan on rectifying the situation very, very soon. lol
but it is a bit ironic that the people here are every bit as narrow minded, subject to being manipulated by the MSM, and generally clueless about the hobby they spend so much time on,and on some subjects, even more so than the public at large. It's tough being dumber than the general public, but many TERmites manage to do so.
That they need to wash their asses.
but it is a bit ironic that the people here are every bit as narrow minded, subject to being manipulated by the MSM, and generally clueless about the hobby they spend so much time on,and on some subjects, even more so than the public at large. It's tough being dumber than the general public, but many TERmites manage to do so.
Every person who makes a buck in the "ride sharing" business is a pimp.
I won't argue with you about asian women working in AMPs. You probably know a lot more of these women than I do. I've seen a few credible news stories about women being tricked into working in AMPs, but this is just what they told the reporters. Certainly, they are in a vulnerable position when they arrive, since they are in the country illegally and probably have to depend on the "traffickers" or pimps for support before they start earning any money.
I agree with you regarding trafficking in the garment district. In some ways, these sweat shops are more vulnerable to trafficking than prostitution is. The sweat shop workers can be kept truly isolated from the outside world.
But once they are in and realize they are good at it and they become willing participants." Is that how you justify it?
If I look at the PIMPS point of view??? WTH? Pimps rationalize EBERYTHING they do, from beating one of his girls to doing something nice for her to keep her in his stable. It's about control and intimidation. He paints a TGTBT picture in her head to bring her in. She NEVER gets the money she makes. It's never hers.
-- Modified on 10/11/2014 10:42:55 AM
safe....lol They're pussies and wouldn't do it.
I have no doubt the dark will be brought into the light. ;-
I'm not trying to justify or rationalize anything, Stephanie. Personally, I try to only see only independent providers, and I'm not comfortable dealing with pimped providers. But, this does not mean that every pimp is as bad as your characterization. If you want to know what the pimping profession is really like, I suggest that you read the recent Urban Institute study.
I've read many news stories about sex trafficking, and if you weed out the fraudulent stories promoted by the likes of Somaly Mam, you find out that the typical "trafficking" situation isn't as simple as the provider being held against their will by the threat of violence.
More typically, the provider is "willing" in the sense that this is the least bad of her options. Sometimes, they are tricked into the business, but then stay because it is there best option. The SF Cronicle had a story a few years back that profiled a "trafficking victim" who ran up a huge credit card debt in Korea. She signed up to be a "bar girl" in the US because she was told that it was less like prostitution than the typical "bar girl" situation in Korea. In fact, it was straight prostitution, and there were a number of expenses that she was charged that she wasn't told about in advance. But, she didn't try to leave because she could eventually make enough money to pay down her debt and get out.
In other cases, it may be that organized crime in their home country may be keeping them working by threatening their loved ones back home.
Many domestic "trafficking victims" are simply underage runaway teenagers who find that life as a hooker is better than some abusive situation they had at home.
These situations are likely to be more common than keeping the trafficking victims in line by the direct threat of violence. That's just very high maintenance, because the pimps have to make sure that victim doesn't escape despite meeting privately with large numbers of strangers. Undoubtably, many of the traffickers use multiple methods of coercion.
In most of these situations, it seems likely that you won't be doing the victim herself any favors by avoiding her or tipping off the cops, although these might hurt the coercive part of the business and help avoid the growth of the trafficking business. Of course, I'm sure that many of these victims would be happy if you pay them without demanding anything much in return.
Anyway, many cities have agencies or charities to support trafficking victims, so you might try to inform them about any such local agency or charity. Just don't leave a brochure around for the pimp to find.
BRAVO! got my vote for one of the best response to this topic EVER!
Never mind the little theater being acted out by Zorro and Dr. Whats-his-face above.
There are 1000 reasons more likely than trafficking for the dead eyes you speak of. Maybe she has a hangover - or her wayward BF didn't return her last text - or shes dead tired after the swing dance competition she won yesterday... 1000 reasons.
In the admittedly small sample size of women I have personally known in the business through the years, none of them were trafficked - or even pimped out, per se. But some of them were equally as enslaved by that other master, addiction. Those girls were definitely saying yes when they wanted to say no - which I found horribly uncomfortable to be around, and which I avoid just as much as I'd want to avoid working with someone who were pimped or trafficked.
Real human trafficking is a horrible crime, but it's cheapened by people who look for it every time they see a hooker who is not having her best day.
My sample size is not a small one, I have known literally thousands of hookers, from many different countries and except from the street walkers I saw in my youth, I would bet money that none of the women I have seen in the last decade or so have been trafficked by any definition that a rational person could agree with.
BTW this includes a few women who made the news for being trafficked after being arrested, when I know for an absolute fact that they were providing of their own free will. Given a choice betweeen jail time and being deported, can you really blame a woman for claiming to be trafficked when LE is giving them that excuse as a get out of jail free card?
Using AMP's just as an example because they are such an easy target for people like you. I was amazed about how well most of these girls live and how much good they were able to do for themselves and their families due to their hard work.
Unlike the "Jimmy Shoo" crowd, most of these women live rather frugally, and after only a few months here are able to dramatically improve their lives and the lives of their loved ones back home. It quite frankly pisses me off to here the racist rhetoric asking hobbyist to avoid these providers due to a misguided fear of contributing to human trafficking. Quite frankly you all should be ashamed of yourselves for advocating a boycott of women who are no more sex slaves than you are. Even that broke dick douche bag Macai knows better than to believe this BS
and I am willing to bet that I know more Ho's than you do, and none of them are trafficked, but I bet you some do gooder would look at one of them having a bad day and THINK he or she knew was was better for her than she did herself.
That's the problem with wanna be do gooders, they usually end up doing more harm than good. All with perfectly good intentions of course. I am sure that sad little Korean girl at the AMP is going to be so thankful to one of these do gooder when they sweep in there, arrest her, take away her livelihood and her only means of making a living, all for her own good. Just because someone THOUGHT she was there against her will.
"What do you do if you think [trafficking] is the case..?" Don't see her again. I don't see how giving her a tip helps her or do anything to rectify the situation, because the money will probably end up in the sex trafficker's pocket one way or another. And there isn't much you can do as an individual, nor can you report it anywhere because there are laws...blah, blah, you know the rest of this minirant.
As for the dead look in her eyes--obviously that could mean any number of things.
What sort of action were you thinking of taking aside from feeding the kitty? Asking her if she has a boyfriend and if he treats her nicely? Aside from walking away there I don't see any options. Maybe report a problem on her TER profile asking to change the Agency category from "independent" to "don't know." That wouldn't do a lot.
If she's truly being trafficked then on a personal level there's really nothing short of waylaying the trafficker that you can do, and that opens a whole new raft of problems.
On a broader level you can join the push for decriminalization of prostitution so others in her position can approach police & support agencies for help without fear of reprisal
It's from the exhaustion brought about by dealing with dicks all day.
8o)
you CAN sniff them out!
Oooh that smell
Can't you smell that smell?
Agreed! Well said, but there's more to be done. To everyone who reads this, take a look at sites like these:
http://www.polarisproject.org/
http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/united_states_of_america/ngos
http://www.innocentsatrisk.org/
Among many others. I took an undergrad course on human trafficking a few semesters ago, and the problem is extremely complex and pervasive. Many people tend to think that because the U.S is, well, the U.S that human trafficking doesn't happen here, or that it doesn't happen to nearly the same extent as it does in other, less developed countries. Sadly, that could not be farther from the truth. I could site all the statistics in the world and go on for hours, but in the world as it exists today, it seems there's no stopping it altogether. What we can do, however, is assist those women, girls, and boys who are fortunate enough to escape their captors. There are organizations that set up and maintain shelters, resources to obtain temporary of permanent residence in the U.S, provide links to psychological counseling, educational services, and assistance finding jobs; all to help them start new lives.
What leads you to believe there are no predators entrenched with in those organizations?
They employ human beings, right?
Nobody can start a new life(except for procreation) a person can only move forward with the life they have.
Two assertions here:
1. Human trafficking is a problem in the U.S.-- just do a google search on "human trafficking arrests".
2. It's been sensationalized by the media.
Reasonable people can agree that the two statements above can both be true, they're not mutually exclusive. --z