simply that it is a customer service job essentially -
some of the very best I've known over several decades have taken the viewpoint that it was not about them at all but about the client, and that if the client enjoyed himself she was genuinely and deeply pleased - and that was all she wanted out of the experience..... there is one such provider I see when she is in town. And that is usually her parting words, that she is so happy that I enjoyed her. Now I do disagree that a provider is not a "good provider" if she would not let you know that "what you are doing is not doing a thing for her" - I think that can go either way - there are different models on which providers base their approach.... there are some who feel that a part of the job is teaching a gentleman caller what she likes and how to be a better lay - and there are some who really don't have "personal sex" at all and like to find a very few very compatible clients to genuinely enjoy themselves with. this latter situation does bring in something very much like "relationship drama" at times though.....I don't want to go shallow with this and just talk about appearance or finances -
how do you approach P4P differently than personal sex?
how do you experience it differently?
in what ways is one better or not as good as the other?
for me - very little difference...... if a provider is willing and responsive I approach her in the same way as one of my personal lovers and the sex is very similar as is the vibe / feel of the experience. If she is not receptive then it's just a good mechanical romp -
but then again quite often my personal sex is just a good mechanical romp as well lol..... and I don't see anything wrong with that.....
I actually feel as though I have often been more "real" with providers and I suffer from the possible illusion that this has often been responded to in kind.... at least in the moment....
(even though I am one of those guys who really just likes to fuck)
-- Modified on 8/8/2014 7:39:29 PM
Is with someone I am attracted to and really want to be all up their grill and that elevates the enjoyment and potential for orgasm into the stratosphere compared to paid sex.
Paid sex is way different for me because 99% of the time it is with someone I am not physically attracted to, and because I am paid, allow way more latitude for his desires.
what if you had a paid client who was your "type" - what if you remove the appearance (and I should probably say, personality) factor as I suggested in my OP ? Now you're looking at the difference being money and a service dynamic.... but what if the person liked the same approach that you did? How would this remain different / better / worse for you?
I will be honest with you - there are not a ton of providers that I've met who are as attractive as either my girlfriend or my administrative assistant (who is my toy). I can do absolutely anything I want with / to either of them. No limits.
But at times I find being with a provider to be *better* - for the primary reason that there is no "relationship drama" conditioning the experience and the secondary reason being the novelty of the experience, the possibility for exploration..... I'm not sure there is much remaining to discover with the lovers of my personal life....
-- Modified on 8/8/2014 8:02:07 PM
In the service dynamic, I am working so my needs are not first or even on a par. In a non paid dynamic I can voice anything as we are on a level playing field.
There are things I "deal" with in a paid scenario which I would not "deal" with in a non paid situation.
Paid, if the sex is bad I still go through with it because it is what I was contracted for. Non paid, if the sex is bad I leave.
and I completely get that -
in my case I don't treat providers as though since I've paid them they have to do what I want whether they like it or not - just as in real life I prefer that they communicate and that they feel that they can take what they want from the experience as well -
and it would appear that for the most part I am not an abysmal lay.....
this does not always work - some have a very deeply ingrained service mentality, some are very submissive and subordinate their own desires, some have a big wall up trying *not* to enjoy having P4P sex - and sometimes it's just not a good fit - literally or in terms of personality - but I consider myself fortunate to have met many who have been willing to make it a very mutual experience....
Being penetrated is not something I get all hot and bothered by and what do johns like to do...yes they like to fuck. So, I rent out that part of my body exclusively for them, it really is a moneymaker and nothing else.
In real life I choose partners who don't place a lot of credence in PV sex. I love oral giving and getting. So at "work" I deal with the PV sex but IRL I can can it or limit it. Or better still chose partners where that is not a main focus.
I have known a number of women over the years for whom oral was what they really enjoyed and penetrative did not do much for them.... as much as I love fucking I have had a couple of relationships over the years with women like that - and very close friendships with a couple of providers wired that way as well.....
my goal is always to find people with whom I am a really good match for sexual style - whether IRL or in P4P - but I have cared about some women for whom I was not a match in this respect, and been willing to share what we could.....
as much as I do love wall to wall fucking.....
he has some interesting things to say other than simply berating most people. Try it, you might actually enjoy the responses other than the ones you get hoping you take a long walk off a short pier.
as is evidenced by the line of responses. Plus, I dig the way he writes. I suppose no one is required to play if they don't want to.
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 9:48:19 AM
after all if you were fed shit and kept in the dark all day, you wouldn't have too sunny a disposition either.
I think he really resents it when people around here actually start having fun. It probably reminds him of how sad the life of a mushroom truly is. lol
..if he can find someone... 
But the fact that she likes me for real justifies that somewhat.
I'm convinced that most women are very emotionally needy. Some are train wrecks. Some are needy in general. Some are unstable time tombs.
P4P gives variety, I like how I can keep a schedule. Usually when I chase a civvie girl we a spend a ton of time together doing oblivious (but romantic) stuff. P4p has fixed time fixed schedule less bs.
Regarding P4p and civvie sex. The ones I've met were on par or similar in menu. The asian civies are almost never into Greek though but so are many Asian providers. Similar. White civies and white providers, about the same in menu and curiosity. I really don't think there's much of a difference in menu other than p4p being that since they are payed they might feel pressured to perform. calling themselves really bi is funny though, so many bi girls in p4p when they aren't really truly bi. Lol
Because, at least for a while, I'm done with "personal sex." I only see providers. I have plenty of reasons but don't intend to share them here. I'm pretty happy with the result and have no interest in civvy dating/relationships.
during which time I had a couple of close provider friends with whom I spent considerable OTC time and with whom I traveled a good bit. But over time even here relationship drama found its way in, along with some jealousy (not on my part)
so I swore off of "ATFs" and went the route I travel today....
the acquiring of a girlfriend and a toy were somewhat accidental and honestly I keep both of them at a bit of arms distance because I am allergic to relationship drama....
I have lots of friendships -- with both hookers and mongers -- in this game and it's been a wonderful surprise.
no different to me at all. An intimate experience is an intimate experience with anyone I encounter in any world. Guess I'm weird.
that is exactly how it is with me - I make an effort to approach every provider I choose to see in the same manner I do IRL. If she's receptive then the experience to me seems no different..... and I think this is often reciprocated.....
for example, just yesterday, we French kissed and made out like lovers, and when fucking in mish, I felt her inner thighs trembling, felt her starting to spasm.... she took two hand fulls of my hair and pulled me to her saying "please kiss me...." and while we were frantically kissing she orgasmed, moaning and screaming into my mouth - I felt her belly muscles virtually punching my lower belly and felt her stream of wetness, as I let go myself.... we lay together kissing and laughing for a while - this was P4P but it was largely identical to and interchangeable with experiences I've frequently had with my girlfriend and administrative assistant..... and with other providers..... the passion may be a thing of the moment, built around the fantasy of having sex without relationship responsibility and drama - but sometimes that actually makes it better in my experience....
I've said it here before, but, for me, this world works in reverse from civvy dating. In that world, you go through a weird dance, getting to know someone, and if things are right, sex happens.
But in this world, you have sex right away. Then, if there's chemistry, a relationship can happen. It's amazingly rewarding when that happens.
Well said. I have no tolerance myself for relationships nor what is involved with them (hence why I 'thought' I was here). Not always as easy as it sounds I'm afraid. I am too independent and have been on my own for years to even think about being in the drawn out bs of 'commitment' and all that entails. So yes, when intimacy arrives with anyone I see here and in the outside world, it can only be one in the same. I simply enjoy it for what it is and not a thing more. Moments are only ever terrific 'in the moment' anyhow I have learned and when it passes, it passes. I think it's just a matter of being fully aware of that moment as it's happening or it will pass you by. At least until the next one presents itself. Good to know I'm not alone (in this scenario anyhow). Good post.
-- Modified on 8/8/2014 8:36:36 PM
I follow a spiritual path that revolves around the practice of Yoga and have done for several decades.
I absolutely believe and my experience confirms that the only thing that is real is the experience of the now -
regrets about the past, worries about the future, illusions of control or permanence, are unhealthy and to be avoided....
perhaps this is the root of the reason why for me, personal sex and P4P sex are pretty much identical -
they are made up of lovely moments -
and I neither expect from nor attribute to them anything beyond that moment....
unbelievably true.
I absolutely believe and my experience confirms that the only thing that is real is the experience of the now -
regrets about the past, worries about the future, illusions of control or permanence, are unhealthy and to be avoided....
perhaps this is the root of the reason why for me, personal sex and P4P sex are pretty much identical -
they are made up of lovely moments -
and I neither expect from nor attribute to them anything beyond that moment....
I love it when I am working my way into the moment and totally forgetting that in reality she is reeling me in ;
I like the "catch" :p
I actually am considered to be a bit of a romantic, but over the years I have become accustomed to a great deal of sex. It's not that I lack patience, but I am not getting any younger :p
You find that the sex you have been chasing for days/weeks/month, wasn't any better than a $150 BP gal.
Only to find out once you finally "catch" her, that she is a cold fish in the sack.
Good thing that I never "do without" while "romancing" a civvie chick. It makes the disappointment so much easier to swallow when you are still getting laid regularly while you are chasing her, and better yet that you can simply jump out of her cold bed into the arms of someone ready, willing and able without missing a beat.
come to me, if they are interested - and in many more cases than not, I am not interested - I have very particular requirements IRL.....
but since I too am very picky IRL as well as P4P, I find the women chasing me are simply not my type, and it's a rare DDG twentysomething that simply falls into my bed, so occasionally I will be the "chaser" instead of the "chasee" lol
The good thing is, my sex life doesn't suffer one iota during the rare "chasing period" which does make my chances of landing a hottie, twenty five years or more my junior, much more likely. As we both know, nothing is less sexy than desperation, and getting laid virtually every day makes a man far from desperate.
Personal sex = non-paid civilian sex I suppose? In that case they are VERY different. In civilian sex I have to go with the flow -that is I have to limit myself to my partners' desires and boundaries.
OTH when I see a professional sex worker I negotiated for what I wanted so it is at least, physically much more fulfilling. Of course that's what I pay good money for. For the kind of wild, kinky, maybe even nasty sex that many civilian women would not do
than most providers I have met -
at least at the outset lol
so there again for me, this does not make a difference
but I completely understand how it might for many......
in my personal life I am a lifestyle Dom and an S/m top - I tie a mean Shibari and moderate at our local club....
my girlfriend and my administrative assistant are both subbies and edge players....
I do not expect bdsm from providers - I am able to enjoy it vanilla - though sometimes providers catch my vibe and it gets interesting -
but you are very right - due to the very nature of P4P and the high degree of transparency and trust required for indulging in my predilections, P4P is generally pretty vanilla.....
and i can recall exactly two occasions in my professional life when these were PARTIALLY incorporated into appointment.
One was during double with another lady and second was with a patron who I would see outside of p4p in a heartbeat.
Sex with a lay woman results from some coming together beyond lust and seduction. Because providers need to keep their private lives hidden, I never feel that my life will in any way blend with theirs.
If I have an affair with a woman who does research at a pharmaceutical company, my social life will to some extent become entangled with a different group of people than those I'd wind up spending time with if I got involved with a cocktail waitress. This, for me, precolors the playtime dynamics. Not to mention the tensions over the decision to bring her, or allow her, into my everyday world.
The usual sequence of play I pay for tends to be similar in patter and duration: BBBJ, CG, RACG, MISH, K9--each for six or seven minutes, and timed to fit into an hour or two or three. With the laity, time restrictions of no concern, we usually enjoy each other in MISH longer, and the other explorations at a more leisurely pace.
Everybody is somebody to someone. So the reality that we are choosing to play with each other carries the awareness that each of us are not saving playtime for someone else. This is true whether or not we're cheating on any promise.
And sometimes there's the difference between relating to someone and dealing with them. But that distinction becomes blurred both ways.
I personally tend to book longer appointments so the timing and flow is pretty much the same - I have things I like to do so my "personal" and "p4p" sex play out largely the same.... if a provider - or my girlfriend - read my reviews she may come to the conclusion that I was somewhat "scripted" in my approach to her, but this is simply an artifact of how my personal preferences play out in my sexual "style"..... but I very much get what you are saying about the anonymity of p4p versus the sense of social context IRL......
Interesting question... I am very new to the hobby, so I would expect my experience to evolve somewhat over time. That said, part of the reason I have arrived at P4P is because the quality/enjoyment of personal sex has plateaued. Don't get me wrong, it's still very enjoyable, but its a bit boring. My approach to P4P is actually a little bit like courting - I focus on the charge of energy and good anxiety that comes from creating the connection. I very much look at it as an opportunity to give and receive pleasure, as IRL. That heightens my enjoyment. Yes, a good fuck is outstanding, but there's a lot of other wonderful time before, between and after to be enjoyed. Tonight is a perfect example - I met with a wonderful provider and while the sex was outstanding, I/we had more fun with foreplay, teasing and making each other laugh while lounging around naked for a couple of hours.
So, from my perspective, it seems like personal v. P4P is not really different in the objective, rather it represents two separate points on the sexual experience timeline from my carefree younger days to the more "goal oriented" present. I'm just glad I know what the hell I'm doing now
You are still learning, lol! And you made a GREAT choice the first go round BTW! 
xoxo,
Steph
in the hobby side of it. More a commentary on the fact that I know far better how to have really good sex vs. when in my early 20s.
Here's to the power of knowledge!
xoxo,
Steph
I hope your experience continues to evolve in the same direction and that you do not allow some of the really negative posters and viewpoints to corrode your attitude and enjoyment....
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 2:16:30 AM
So far the approach I've taken has served me/us well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
with her. right? i.e., some encounters with the lady you mention are better than others. just like in civvie sex
but that's the chemistry part of it. My motivation going into a date would be the same - let's have a great time and enjoy each others company.
it isn't a lot different, and in many ways it's more passionate here. I can really let myself go here, in a way that real life often doesn't allow for various reasons (both obvious and subtle). It's like a secret world in which we can lose inhibitions and totally give ourselves to the moment- and that moment changes with chemistry, the person I'm with, and the time of month. I'm a hedonist and take my pleasure as and when I can. This little world allows me to indulge that unabashedly.
It's like wild abandon in a walled garden: the walls are created and maintained by the financial agreement.
But the height of wild abandon, for me, comes through travel sex. Here, I am pursued. I prefer it that way here- I'll never answer an ISO, and if a gent doesn't make a move, we'll never meet. In traveling, however, I'm the pursuer. I choose my mark and I acquire it. And because I know we will go our separate ways afterwards, I can give in to wild abandon. In this scenario, the walls are created by passports and oceans.
and I've heard similar sentiments from some of my very favorite providers over time -
just as for the client, the encounter with a provider is not conditioned by the social context of personal sex, with all of the baggage attendant thereto, why should this not also be the same for a provider, who puts herself into the moments she shares with those clients with whom she finds a measure of compatibility -
and is not compatibility in many ways easier when it is mutual acknowledged as temporary and as a shared fantasy, in that the encounter is devoid of the baggage that comes with a relationship IRL?
Once upon a time, I very frequently saw a provider who had a long term boyfriend IRL. After we had gotten to know one another and the sex had developed to a point where intimate knowledge of one another had created something extremely pleasurable for both of us, she confided that what we had was significantly better than she had with her boyfriend, simply because of the lack of any responsibility to one another IRL....
this is the nature of the fantasy of P4P sex - the opportunity is there for both provider and client to give themselves to the moment in absence of a social contract or understanding and without having to look one another in the eye "in the morning"....
what a lovely opportunity for wild abandon, for the complete abnegation of or dropping of the "walls" and pretenses demanded by a society that is so very ill at ease with sexuality......
This!! "simply because of the lack of any responsibility to one another IRL".
And not necessarily just to each other- responsibility period. You've got a home that needs to be taken care of and run (bills, repairs, etc), you've got familial obligations, you've got errands that need running, you've got the whole "real" world in bed with you. Nothing you do with your primary partner is disconnected from all of that. So while as a hedonist I will always have skyrocket sex with any primary partner (as I said in another post- otherwise what's the point of even having a primary partner? Lol!), the lack of real world concerns makes sex with others that little bit more exciting. Not to mention the highly erotic feeling of strange. Which is a complete turn on for me.
I get that some people need to know someone well enough to trust them and let go. I've never had that requirement to pursue my own pleasure. I have the ability to love anyone. And I have the ability to trust and let go with anyone. And that's why I am able to be Sarah.
When you are in a long-term relationship, it should be about being free to be yourself - let yourself go. You can't fully surrender yourself if you don't know and trust the person. When you can fully surrender yourself, that takes it to a whole new level.
If we were in a relationship, it would be erotic to me for you to tell me what would please you, and then I would try my best to fulfill that desire.
... maybe it's because I had a good personal experience. Sounds like you did too.
Funny, you ask someone to describe a father and those with good fathers describe them far differently than those with bad fathers. That may or may not be what's going on with the gamut of responses to this question, I don't know. But I do know we are very much influenced by our past; good and bad, but like faces - different from everyone else, yet still in many ways the same.
I have now spent time with some of the finest ladies to grace this hobby world, and while I see why they are the best at what they do, that sense of full surrender and trust from a relationship where the couple touches souls - yes it does happen on occasion - takes life to a whole different level. It just does
While admittedly rare, this has happened for me in this world. And this would be a necessary part of any primary partnership I would enter into.
Again, we go back to how easy it is or isn't to trust a stranger. It's very easy for me to trust a stranger- especially one who's passed my screening and personal compatibility check. Perhaps my ability to trust stems from a past in which I've never had the reason not to trust.
Just to clarify, I am not saying I cannot have a terrific time without the full surrender and trust from a relationship that goes straight to my core - to the soul; I am simply saying that for me, that's my 10. And I do I count myself as one of the lucky ones who was at least able to experience this for quite some time... until life sadly got in the way.
For me, wanting to be with someone all of the time who wants to be with me all of the time was the best feeling I have ever had.
But, but, but... as second best feelings go, wanting to be with someone some of the time who wants to be with me some of the time is a damn good one - esp when we can make the same 'some of the time' work for both of us
and I'm so very sorry real life took the course it did for you two! 
In all reality, what you were able to experience is so very rare. Consider yourself blessed!!
I do Sarah, thank you. And this is where I come now to feel normal - go figure - but I feel equally blessed to be here.
and it's not about trust or fulfillment of desires or fantasies. As a hedonist, any primary partner I've chosen would necessarily be there for me in those ways, otherwise there wouldn't be a relationship. What would be the point?
I know this is hard for people to grasp, but I don't need to know someone in order to trust them enough to surrender. That's why I do this- I can. And the abandon I feel with my Sarah friends is no commentary on any lack of abandon I am *able* to feel with a primary partner. It's a commentary on the fact that there are often other, external (to the bedroom, and even our relationship) constraints on wild abandon. So in neutral territory with a "stranger" who's completely hot for me, along with the novelty and eroticism of strange, all the ingredients are there- for me- to have skyrocket sex.
It is sad (a different sad) that "externals" interfere. That is one reason a lot of guys hobby is because the wife is distracted by other things. In p4p, part of what the guy pays for is for the lady to not be distracted (focused on him, the moment).
Sad that can't happen in real life - a time to escape to hedonism.
That is one of the things that makes my meetings with ladies so erotic: I do ask them what pleases them, they tell me, and we do it (Ladies First). We also talk about the things that please me, but my primary focus is on pleasing the lady I'm with. And, when I do that, a funny thing happens: she tends to please me as well. P4P should be no different than "personal" sex in that regard: each person focusing on the other's needs results in that fireworks sex Sarah so ably describes.
I have been rewarded with a lot of carnal pleasure and genuine affection for taking that approach, and been told frequently over many years that often many days go by during which she does not experience this....
I am always paying attention to the slightest responses - positive or negative - and negotiating my way toward the positive - without *Pressuring* the lady to enjoy... just discovering what she does in fact enjoy - and the response I get very typically is overwhelming positive and very rewarding....
That doesn't mean it's going to happen in many p4p situations, but sometimes it does. And that's ok, isn't it?
I don't think we guys can or should go in expecting it, but if we both walk away with something good we shared, well, it's kind of like both of us getting an extra cherry on top of the sundae so to speak.
It's like wild abandon in a walled garden: the walls are created and maintained by the financial agreement.
Yes!!
Elizabeth Bernstein calls it "Bounded Authenticity". Have you read her book?
The sex I had in most of my married year was better than what I'm having now with P4P, and it will likely remain that way. There's nothing on a provider's menu, whether Greek, Russian, oral, nasal or otherwise, that I didn't have on the menu before.
I know that the GFE thing is an illusion, that the woman is acting, and that, while the sex is real, there's no emotion behind it. Because I can never really know the woman, I can never be entirely comfortable, and I can't let loose because of that.
With someone I've been intimate with and actually known for more than a couple of months, I'm comfortable enough to let loose and be myself. I know what's real.
I keep getting close to that comfort point with a couple of repeat providers, but then a wrench of some kind gets thrown into the works and it's back to square one.
I'm an optimist, so I'll keep trying new women. Or maybe it's not optimism, but Freud's point about doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.
in terms of quality or variety of sex acts, I also have two SO relationships with no limits or walls.... so it's not a matter of seeing providers to obtain some sexual favour or service that I am otherwise unable to obtain.....
I would have expected when writing this OP that what you express would have been the majority opinion - and I think that it probably is in fact, only that others of your viewpoint and experience have not chimed in in number....
for many the personal connection makes the sex better, if they are able to build and maintain relationships IRL that do not contain a lot of contextual "weight" of negativity.... some are able to do this better than others....
I don't think you are the "odd one out" at all...
This is pretty interesting, and I think defines a common bifurcation in opinion here. On the one hand, you have people who have to feel comfort and trust with someone before they can let loose. On the other, you have people who can feel comfort and trust with perfect strangers. I'm in the latter camp. I think that's why I'm here. I'm really good at loving and becoming intimate with people I don't know. I've always thought of it as a gift. And I share it with my Sarah friends.
This is a great point. I'm not the type to be trusting of strangers IRL. I actively seek out the positive in someone, but that's different than trust. That said, the hobby inherently builds in a certain level of trust in the sense that we each have RL on the line if we betray one another. Maybe not the ideal basis for trust, but it's there. With that as a backdrop, I don't "need" to really know the woman, as long as whoever and whatever she represents in correspondence setting up the date is reflected during the date AND we both respect each other's long term IRL motivations (spoken and unspoken).
trust built into this relationship. It's a perfect foundation for the coming together of strangers!
That's why I love a good introduction and some time via email to get to know someone before meeting. I need to work my potential new friend into my being in order to get out of this what I expect. And it's for me definitely *not* just about the money.
....and that you are doing your research so that you can have the best possible experience. I'm sure that not all providers do the same.
I'm certain they do not. Illustrated by Springer's post perfectly. The difference is some of us see ourselves as providing a service, and others see ourselves as providing an experience. The service providers are happy keeping their true selves out of this, while the experience providers couldn't do this without involving their true selves on some level. And everyone's happy as long as they know- really know- which kind they are or which kind they desire.
I have yet to meet--but still perhaps foolishly hope to meet--the provider who doesn't lie like a rug. I can take the stories about the billionaire boyfriends jetting them off to Paris for a week of non-stop sex and shopping. It's the moans I hear the second I touch her skin to the "I want to taste your hot cum" lines, and the faked orgasm signs, that drive me nuts. If she's lying about all this, then I have to wonder what she's really thinking. Is she disgusted by my age, bored with my performance, watching the clock, thinking about the Jimmy Choo shoes she can buy and Mercedes payments she can make with the cash in the envelope?
When I hear sounds I know are real as well as silence I know is real, when I feel the bed soaked or the bed dry (I'm talking squirters), then I can be comfortable. I know if I'm doing something right nor not. When my ex was giving me a BJ and there was a puddle on the floor, there was no need for her to say something about hot cum.
I know someone will think or say that I shouldn't be concerned about how the provider is feeling, but how am I to let loose when the other party is rigidly sticking to a script?
Maybe I'm just not going to find a provider who can let loose with a guy my age. Maybe I'm looking for the impossible. If that's the case, then I'll enjoy the pleasure the hot young ladies are giving me, but it won't be the same as what I had in a civvie relationship
I'm sorry to hear that. This seems to be the operative phrase here: "hot young ladies". You'll never likely get that feeling from the younger ladies. I don't think most of them have the presence of mind/body to give you that here. I hope you meet a true courtesan someday. I'm sure it will change your perspective a little. No- a lot.
SoftlySarah, I'm very close with one of them to getting that feeling. There's just a couple of hurdles to overcome.
I've read thousands of reviews of providers within a day's drive. Some sound good, some look good, but none come close to the looks and the reviews of this young lady. It's not often you find review after review that are loaded with superlatives.
Each time I consider an older provider, I either find some reviews that make me question whether I should spend the money, or the provider does something off the wall that makes me glad I didn't book. I've seen some that interest me in more distant cities, but the logistics make it impossible
working well with what you have! And looks like you're in it with her for the long haul. Best of luck getting there- sounds like you're determined, and I wish you well!
to sell their services....
and unfortunately to very many if not most mongers this *is* what is indeed expected...
but there is a real person under there -
I don't criticize providers for performing but in my manner and approach I give them permission not to do so - and I try to gently negotiate my way past the physical barriers by following the trail of breadcrumbs that consists of her actual responsiveness...
it is work but it can be done, and it makes the act much more pleasurable for me
I've treated providers like fuckdolls on occasion when that is as far as it was going to go and have taken my pleasure - often hard....
but if there is real responsiveness I make a sincere effort to navigate my way toward what is pleasurable for them - and almost always find that this results in a session that winds up being more pleasurable for me on two levels - first in that I enjoy giving pleasure and second in that this kind of attention in my experience is almost always rewarded - in spades....
granted, very limited experience to date, but its produced wonderful experiences on multiple levels.
There's a provider whom I've seen several times now, and have complained about several times on this forum.
I love every minute I'm with her. It's the happiest I've been in many years. The complaints are about things outside the bedroom. No complaints about what goes on BCD.
There's been a few moments when she's let her guard down and I've gotten a peek into her real personality. I'm not talking about knowing things about her real life, but just the real her. There's been a couple of times when I've gotten her off for real, and it was nothing like her faked performances. Both of those made me feel more comfortable, which in turn let me get looser and try something new.
The last time we were together, we spent an hour just cuddling and kissing after my time was up. Granted, she was buzzed from the wine I'd brought, but I kept saying I should leave and she kept drawing me closer. That made me feel like I'd broken through some barrier, and that she was comfortable enough with me to not have to be playing her role.
If I could just get that openness from her most of the time, I could get close to enjoying the P4P almost as much as I did the civvie sex
I can understand this (and your previous comment). Perhaps I'm either too new to really know the difference, or I've been very lucky with my dates, or both. But, I've pretty much gotten all that I've been seeking in a date. I'm confident that some of this has come from having a mindset going in that I value an opportunity to talk about non-sexual topics and will take her lead in what she wants to discuss. I know and accept that she is going to talk about things that she's comfortable sharing, but a genuine smile and laugh goes a long way in conveying that even in P4P, there is an opportunity for guard to relax some.
Continued good luck with finding that perfect mix of openness and passion.
The provider in question is one of those young hotties that SoftlySarah referenced two posts above. She's within a whisker of being open with me. She's shared a lot with me, but some I know isn't real. Other things are real, but masked a bit to protect her identity (and then throws those security cautions to the winds by sending me nude photos showing her face )
When I saw my patrons it was all about THEM. When I see someone in my personal life it is either about mutual pleasure (one on one scenario) or all about me (when I play with more than one person). In rare situations it would be somewhat partially about me as well. Usually these situations involved long time friends who I saw for extended dates. But even in those situations mentally I always had to be "on".
Like I said to one of my weekend dates when he suggested dating -
"if we were dating i would
1) step off this plane in jeans and tshirt and would not have bothered changing in airport bathroom into sexy outfit that I knew you wanted
2) not have blown you in the limo
3) actually get some sleep after 6 hour flight instead of fucking you for two hours
4) tell you to suck it yourself when you woke me up for middle of the night blow job
5) never leave perfectly nice cabana to go to Lagasse's sports bar because its "the laker's game" and we just had to watch some dudes from LA run around kicking basketball
6) make it clear that having to sit quietly in the room while you are on conference call is really not my idea of good time, and last but not least
7) would not have been so enthusiastic about watching damn Phantom Of The Opera for 6th time'
He thought about it for a minute and said "lets keep things the way they are"
Some of the most interesting conversations I ever had about personal vs professional sex are the ones I have with a friend of mine who is male escort to single women and couples. Talking to him is pretty much like talking to another working girl, down to same likes and dislikes.
But basically, if you ask him how paid sex differs from civvie sex, he would say the same thing - it is never about MY pleasure.
this post should be REQUIRED reading on the Newbie Board and should periodically come up on every Regional Board as an Admin post message With "READ THIS" in bold font.
Thank you
Like I said to one of my weekend dates when he suggested dating -
"if we were dating i would
1) step off this plane in jeans and tshirt and would not have bothered changing in airport bathroom into sexy outfit that I knew you wanted
2) not have blown you in the limo
3) actually get some sleep after 6 hour flight instead of fucking you for two hours
4) tell you to suck it yourself when you woke me up for middle of the night blow job
5) never leave perfectly nice cabana to go to Lagasse's sports bar because its "the laker's game" and we just had to watch some dudes from LA run around kicking basketball
6) make it clear that having to sit quietly in the room while you are on conference call is really not my idea of good time, and last but not least
7) would not have been so enthusiastic about watching damn Phantom Of The Opera for 6th time'
He thought about it for a minute and said "lets keep things the way they are"
Some of the most interesting conversations I ever had about personal vs professional sex are the ones I have with a friend of mine who is male escort to single women and couples. Talking to him is pretty much like talking to another working girl, down to same likes and dislikes.
But basically, if you ask him how paid sex differs from civvie sex, he would say the same thing - it is never about MY pleasure.
that is sad.... are you able to sort out whether this is really a demand that comes from *all* of your clients, or is it a demand you place on yourself? I ask because you say "never"....
I am always about the pleasure of the providers I spend time with - as much as I am about my own. It's a balance. I am incapable of enjoying something that I feel is not being enjoyed by a partner, and I prefer when the lady communicates...
I prefer an exchange of initiative, and an exchange of pleasure....
I am not in this to please others only. I don't see myself as a service provider- I see myself as the hired counterpart to an otherwise impossible (or very difficult to achieve) adventure. The fee creates equality and honesty in the bedroom. Luckily my presentation and marketing tends to attract fellow adventurers more than those looking for a service.
But I love her honesty. She certainly knows who she is and for that reason comes across as a fascinating person!
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 11:42:50 AM
And to say it is sad is. well could be you projecting your feelings to this. She is not sad, she is quite okay with how she works this little minefield.
Whether it is a demand from all her clients or her own self imposed demand, it works for her. As long as she does a great job, and it appears she does, her reward, in this corner of the world, might just be the money.
Reading her post showed be she puts effort into her business and it is very client oriented, nothing wrong with that. Her enjoyment could simply be the happiness she gives to her clients and her fee.
Why some people feel the need for some hookers to enjoy the sex with guys they would not be screwing in real life is beyond me, why can't it just be about the cash or something else? It could be more about their ego than the truth, wanting, no needing the women to be as into them as they are to her. Remember this point, you are paying her to be with you...period.
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 8:48:16 AM
to be with you in one way or another, unless it is a quick zipless
and that IRL for many of us, maintaining a girlfriend or significant other can be considerably more expensive than P4P....
I've met a lot of providers who were simply very appreciative of the donation and were very giving to the client - whose entire focus was that the client was pleased - and this included acting as though she herself was pleased -
this is the hallmark of some of the best providers in the business and I appreciate them....
I never pressure a provider to take pleasure from our encounter....
but I do offer her permission, if she is willing...... and if she desires it.....
in the P4P milieu -
I have never met a really good provider who was not significantly ego invested in her quality of service / performance....
I've had quite a few provider friends converse with me in obvious and genuine angst because they got a less than stellar review - not from the standpoint that it would hurt her business but rather because she was heavily invested in her quality of service and because the review literally hurt her feelings... they were looking for both critique and encouragement.....
And I have found that the *slightest* expression of discontent with many is taken like a slap in the face....
providers who are not ego invested in their craft usually do not get good reviews and usually do not last long in the higher level of the sport....
Is the civvies want to be there without the envelop. In other words they are, at the very least, attracted and want to have sex, not only there because you sought them out and are paying for that. I see that as the pivot point.
It is great that you can see this from both sides and that is why I like your approach.
I think this is the point. Yes.
It's sort of like listening to a song sung by the person who wrote it vs a really good recording artist who didn't write it.
The artist is a pro, practiced, professional, and can do things with their voice that can make the song sound amazing -
but when you hear the emotion come from the person who wrote each word from their heart you can tell the difference. It may not be as polished, as pretty, as professional - but the heart provides a rich texture and the listener can tell.
So yes, wanting to be there without the envelope may not mean everything as some songwriters are just impossible to listen to regardless of the heart - but it's an intangible that can't be overlooked and cannot really be replicated, even by the recording artist who offers us the 'Songwriter Experience'
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 10:27:31 AM
wind up wanting a lot more than the envelope entails from me -
in terms of lifestyle that I am able to provide (which costs more $ than P4P)
plus in terms of responsibilities that I prefer honestly to limit.....
Any civvie wants to be there in the beginning BECAUSE there is some attraction, some desire to WANT to touch you, allow you to enter her body.
P4P, you pay to do that and sometimes, the lady is so NOT wanting you anywhere near her, BUT she is a professional and makes you believe she does....BECAUSE you laid down the big bucks.
yes - I do get that -
however -
my one and only marriage of just a handful of years cost me eight figures - only a dent mind you but more per hour than P4P.....
honestly I am sure that there are providers for whom I am not their type, who might not want me "anywhere near them" IRL
but I am also quite well aware that there are some who would want (and have wanted) me near them IRL....
but hats off to the lady of the first type, who does a good job of selling the experience -
She never said that she was not open to enjoying the sex. Or that she did not enjoy certain aspects of the date, or even the guy's company.
I am the same way during my dates...I do what he wants. If he does not want an appetizer at dinner, then I will agree that appetizers are unnecessary...if he must order three apps, though, I will try each one.
But i can usually find something in the guy to appreciate and enjoy. And I feel that I kind of owe it to the guy to TRY to enjoy the sex. Not gonna happen every time, but he isn't paying a few k's to be barely tolerated...
Good service has to come from the heart. But, it is still a service and I will bend my will to accommodate him, because that is what I am paid to do
And like any CUSTOMER SERVICE job in my personal opinion it is supposed to be about the customer's wants and desires and pleasure.
I did not dislike the job, as a matter of fact I actually liked it very much. When it stopped being fun I quit.
And yes, there are plenty of customers who are about the providers' pleasure as much as their own. Really GOOD provider will never let you know that what you THINK is pleasing her isn't doing a damn thing for her. It's right there in the job description "create an Ideal Girl Friend Experience".
The kind of girlfriend who laughs at all your jokes, loves giving blow jobs, always wants to have sex with you, never has any problems, likes to go to same events and is appears to be fascinated by everything you say. She seems to enjoy your company so much, that you "forget it was a service".
But it was a service. And the reason you have forgotten about it is simple - she was a SERVICE PROVIDER concentrating on YOUR pleasure.
I would give an arm to just sit and have drink with you. I am so attracted to your level of truth.
if you ever make it to NYC drinkS can be arranged
simply that it is a customer service job essentially -
some of the very best I've known over several decades have taken the viewpoint that it was not about them at all but about the client, and that if the client enjoyed himself she was genuinely and deeply pleased - and that was all she wanted out of the experience.....
there is one such provider I see when she is in town. And that is usually her parting words, that she is so happy that I enjoyed her.
Now I do disagree that a provider is not a "good provider" if she would not let you know that "what you are doing is not doing a thing for her" - I think that can go either way - there are different models on which providers base their approach....
there are some who feel that a part of the job is teaching a gentleman caller what she likes and how to be a better lay -
and there are some who really don't have "personal sex" at all and like to find a very few very compatible clients to genuinely enjoy themselves with. this latter situation does bring in something very much like "relationship drama" at times though.....
He told you, "This weekend is all about YOU! I am a servant here for your pleasure. I only seek to make you happy!"
I am sure you have NEVER heard that one before. LOL.
It usually translates to, "Let's fuck ALL NIGHT. I want to make you cum 15 times."
Like I said to one of my weekend dates when he suggested dating -
"if we were dating i would
1) step off this plane in jeans and tshirt and would not have bothered changing in airport bathroom into sexy outfit that I knew you wanted
2) not have blown you in the limo
3) actually get some sleep after 6 hour flight instead of fucking you for two hours
4) tell you to suck it yourself when you woke me up for middle of the night blow job
5) never leave perfectly nice cabana to go to Lagasse's sports bar because its "the laker's game" and we just had to watch some dudes from LA run around kicking basketball
6) make it clear that having to sit quietly in the room while you are on conference call is really not my idea of good time, and last but not least
7) would not have been so enthusiastic about watching damn Phantom Of The Opera for 6th time'
He thought about it for a minute and said "lets keep things the way they are"
Some of the most interesting conversations I ever had about personal vs professional sex are the ones I have with a friend of mine who is male escort to single women and couples. Talking to him is pretty much like talking to another working girl, down to same likes and dislikes.
But basically, if you ask him how paid sex differs from civvie sex, he would say the same thing - it is never about MY pleasure.
I have had that said to me (not on an overnight, much shorter time frame)and I said "you really want this to be about my pleasure?". He said absolutely and I said"Then I would love a warm oil massage".
He said nothing sexual, I said nope, you asked what would give me pleasure and the massage is what'll do it. He came through but never asked it to be about me again.
Call me a romantic, but before she sunk into an irretrievable eating disorder/mental illness the sex, warmth, joy and sense of ‘ahhhh’ with the woman I married was so all-encompassing that it surpassed anything I have ever experienced with any other woman - in the hobby or out - although there is one provider I know who could maybe actually surpass that except I know the boundaries here will likely never let us find out.
My wife, when she was a bit younger, was a beautiful and passionate model who never thought of herself as beautiful – I thought that was a wonderful part of her charm but in the end it turned out to be her downfall. And looking back I know I could have been a better and more supportive husband, but I am not sure anything could have saved us. We had our time and that is that, but it did give me some context for passionate personal sex.
The difference for me is captured in an experience I had in the hobby - the first overnight I did with a stunning, spectacular provider some years back. A trip to the beach. The first couple of hours were like a roman candle, but I recall sitting at the edge of the bed when she showered thinking ‘ok, so what are we going to do for the other 22 hours?’ That question never entered my mind with my wife.
Please don’t get me wrong, although I had some civvie opportunities for ‘affairs’ once my wife and I ceased to have a relationship (we still live together for reasons related to her health and to our son’s health) but the personalities didn’t click beyond the bedroom – so our world here seemed much better for me and more of what I need.
And lucky me, I’ve met some wonderful women here, and we have and will continue (I hope) to share some terrific times… but I have to confess that what has felt best to me in my life is the sort of indescribable feeling of total surrender to and with another person that is a necessary casualty of that walled off garden Sarah so aptly described.
Still, there is a lot to be said for the casual sex and temporal warmth that comes with P4P, but with that comes a necessary check we need to do with regard to our emotions and wallets – something I never had to do with my personal life
I completely get what you have expressed -
I think that the difference for some of us is that we have not related to personal sex that much differently than we have in the P4P context.... that certainly describes me and a few providers I've known.... I've had a number of providers I've gotten to know very well, tell me that they often preferred the abandon of the fantasy of sex disconnected from responsibility and the drama inherent in relationships for some of us -
it's the same dynamic that has always been the impetus for "zipless sex"
Honestly I think that the sentiments in this thread express something that had seemed obvious to me - people come wired in two distinct ways with respect to sex and relationship -
for many, perhaps a majority, perhaps the "normative" - is that the context of relationship maxes sex more meaningful, gives it a context, makes it sweeter - as long as the relationship is well maintained
but I think that this world of P4P tends to attract a disproportionately large number of people for whom relationship is not necessary or perhaps even desirable to have dynamic and connected sex -
most would probably guess that a lot of the clients are wired that way - however I think that a lot more providers than one would assume are wired that way as well. I've known quite a few providers who preferred to live alone and not have a relationship, who were very independent and enjoyed a single life, and who actually depended on select clients for sex that to them was about as personal as it gets.....
There's also some on this board who've been wired to find relationship sex more pleasurable, but now want nothing to do with a relationship because of a bad experience with the SO. So, they do P4P, but still would like to have a little more of that relationship feeling. Maybe it's possible, but I would think far less than likely to happen.
I think the best that should be hoped for by such people is to have a P4P relationship that's based upon a mutual trust and a certain amount of "like", but not "love".
and far too much trouble.
if you are wired like I am and don't want to deal with a lot of relationship drama just to get laid, don't want to financially support someone who withholds sex because of said drama, and don't want to be taken for a ton of your assets on top of the bargain if you split company....
in this respect, P4P is a lot more "efficient" and a lot less costly.....
and I don't trust escorts so...
even see escorts if you don't "trust" them?
ver had impersonal sex or sex through a 3rd party. I am always present when having sex.
because that is how I am wired as well - and how many providers I have come to know well are also wired....
how is the fact that a client drops an envelope any different from the fact that they financially support a significant other?
there is a "business" aspect to all sex whether "personal" or a more direct P4P
and like you I am always fully present and invested in sharing sex with someone.....
of P4P..... as well as the freedom from relationship dynamics and drama....
By my count, he has the OP plus 26 more on this thread alone....
uh-oh, time to duck... incoming....
It's a provocative topic as you can see from the responses; his answers are thoughtful and serious. As much as I'd love to know how Rod honed his DATY skills above, I think I'll hang out here a bit longer. The input here is a cut above the norm, seemingly regardless of who's posting - or how many.
that I am not on it.....
-- Modified on 8/9/2014 7:40:49 PM
The old adage is that you will pay for the pussy you get in this world one way or the other. I've had my fill of the relationship BS that seems to hover around personal sex so I choose to not pay that price. I enjoy living in the moment and P4P is just that, so I choose to pay that price. Personal sex seems to always have too much to do with what has previously transpired and what is to come (punishment or reward). The expectations I have to live up to in P4P are pretty simple: be a respectful gentleman and show up squeaky clean. I would relish a drama free, sexually satisfying personal relationship, but I haven't met that woman yet.
which is all about being fully in the moment -
how often do you have any kind of long term relationship with someone where you can just "be in the moment" while enjoying sex?
with women, there always seems to be a rather large elephant in the room, hovering over the bed
things that they will never forget from the past for which they hold a grudge
things that they want from you that condition how they approach sex
things they want from the future that condition how they approach sex
I think that this is why my personal relationships have a short shelf life - this shit accrues until it blots out the sun
it seems that most of the time that I am enjoying sex fully and completely in the moment, unconditioned by past or future, I am either
with a provider
in a largely anonymous situation for the fun of it - a zipless
with someone who follows the same spiritual path I do and who just wants a pleasurable interlude
The way I see it, being a good wife/mother and being a good sex partner are mutually EXCLUSIVE -for probably 90% of the woman population.
Congrat to you fellas out there who are the lucky few able to find the so-rare "total package"!
Heck from what I see in civilian life as well in dating sites I would not want to fuck 90% of the women within 15 years of my age. Sorry but I'm just don't find them that attractive and sensual so right there and then any kind of personal/civilian sex would be a challenge whether it's with the SO or an affair for example.
From a purely physical pleasure POV I really don't see how it is possible to top having P4P sex with partner less than half my age and willing to go further than normal, vanilla, traditional sex! Sorry to say but 90% of women peak at around 25 y.o. as far as physical beauty and attractiveness. It's nothing but downhill from there :-
I have also met a lot of 30 to 40 something women who were really hot as well - provider and personal -
to me it's not as much the appearance as it is the attitude
when you set up housekeeping with someone there arise sets of expectations from the female of the species that I have always found to be at least to a degree unreasonable and often to be insatiable.
homey don't play that.
to remark how much honesty and thought has gone into these responses, and how bloody civil almost everyone has been -
even a couple of cranky people have not attempted to turn this into a train wreck and for that I am appreciative -
I feel that I gained some insight from the responses written here and I am appreciative
I hope others have enjoyed and perhaps benefitted to some degree from expressing their thoughts and considering those of others as well.....
going in a meaningful direction. I think we all learned something about ourselves and others here.
I have to say I'm very impressed with everyone's contributions- even when I didn't agree with them.
Hope we have many more of these conversations on GD going forward!