i did indeed read it Doc, but I thought, "why hide my light under a bushel?" and started a new one, mostly to try to riff off the thread hijacking nonsense.
did you read any of the items the google search found? or did you selectively read only the ones which confirmed your preconceived notions of [how totally unsurprising] complete and absolute Israeli innocence on this score? don't bother to answer -- the question is meant to be rhetorical.
going back to yesterdays post, I wrote "if verified as true" [re the possibility of Israeli waterboarding]. Did you see the small but important word "IF"? do you understand what purpose it serves?
As per your custom, you missed the real point of my post. But, then again, I could post my laundry list, my grocery list, and my "things to do today list" and you'd respond with your usual missives from AIPAC and the Likud.
but i am grateful that you did not deviate from civility; nor did your response reference your favorite tropes : suicide bombers, the famous Golda Mier quote, general and diffuse Arab terrorism, Iran, Islamofascisms, etc... there's hope indeed for you, doc.
The rest was standard Likudist/Jabotinskyite/Kahanist/Sharonist/Beginite nonsense. When do you, and your like-minded pen-pals like Dershowitz, finally get it throught your heads that the only thing guaranteeing the survival of Israel is the insane support given to it by the US? Genius for survival indeed. Genius for self-serving and delusional propaganda is more like it.
anyway, enjoy cruising the PCH on the trike, and remember again to brake for Pallys. Or at least a token blast of the horn before you plow into them, no doubt at very high speed. What would you call that? Bowling for Pally Pedestrians? Hey, this could be a reality show on Israeli TV. I've copryrighted the idea already, so...
Hey, I just had thought. Are there any Israelis who belong to the Likud Party and to PETA? Interesting combo I'd say.
I'm going back to my nap. Thanks for the diversion.
Google "the use of torture by the Israeli government" and you get :
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=searchbox.webhome&query=the+use+of+tortue+by+the+Israeli+government
Like all google searches it's a ratbag of stuff, but feel free to wade through all the material, er, excuse me, all the hateful anti-semitic pro-Arab ranting.
-- Modified on 2/10/2008 2:33:37 AM
-- Modified on 2/10/2008 2:39:05 AM
What a pity you didn't bother reading my response to BillKile.
Otherwise, why would you start yet ANOTHER thread on Mossad Interrogation technique when Bill already started one right beneath this one.
So for your benefit, and to save you a moment or two of your time, here it is again:
Now, on to the subject of this thread... Mossad interrogation techniques....
Put a Muslim man naked in a room with a pig and lock him in. Is that torture?
Take Xiaominglover1 and force him to listen to old scratchy recordings of Hatikvah for 24 hours.
Is that torture?
Crucify a Christian Evangelist. Is that torture?
Here's the deal. Waterboarding is crude, and relatively ineffectual. It's odious and obsolete, but cruel and psychologically devastating to the victim. But the operative word is still ineffectual.
The Israeli's are not stupid. They know they are not dealing with rational thinkers operating with conventional methods. They will have other, far more effective and devastating means to gain the information they need.
There is a reason the Mossad and the Israeli military are so highly regarded. The survival instinct runs deep and strong within the Jews. It's embedded into our consciousness, ingrained in our genetic code. Considering Israel has been surrounded on all sides by deadly enemies who want to destroy them, it is not surprising that survival instinct has led to a ruthless effectiveness on the part of the military.
When Israel was granted Nationhood 60 years ago, many of their first citizens were concentration camp survivors hardened and toughened by the Nazi camps. Three generations later, that hardness and toughness has been refined and honed into a ruthlessness and edginess not seen since the Macabees and Simon Bar Kochba fought against Rome.
The Mossad have one of the most sophisticated and effective spy networks in the world. Ruthless and effective. Do they torture? I'm sure there are those here who would like to believe they do.
But the fact is, their spy network gets more information than any fool homicide bomber could ever provide. That's the real strength of the Mossad. That and a healthy dose of chutzpah.
Here's one addenda to my earlier comment:
If you were a prisoner of war would you rather be held by Mossad, or Hamas?
Ok, its a perfect Sunday morning and I'm hosting a little Meet n Greet this afternoon. I'm going to go for a ride. I promise not to run down any Pally grannies in your honor, Xiaoming.
-- Modified on 2/10/2008 8:40:09 AM
I really should stay off this politics board, I am going to get myself in trouble on here...lol
The Mossad is really not as ingenius as they are made out to be. If it were not for the cowardice of American and European politicians, not to mention Zionist operatives in positions of power in these lands, then they would not get all the intell they get. Any polititian that would stand against their excesses is assured of being labled as anti-Semitic and very few stand in their way. It is the fear of the smear on the part of these "leaders" that give the Mossad a great edge, without this they wouldn't be so revered.
Because of these realities of the current political climate in the West, government by Zionist media bosses and money men, we really are all Palestinians now. Yep those poor Israelis, those victims----- with nukes.
when you post such drivel. Somehow the Jews have taken over the world in your little scheme, yet Israel still has to fight tooth and nail for its very existence.
Israelis must be the most incompetent people in the world---they have nukes, Jews control world media, have all the money, and yet still Israelis live day to day in fear of annihilation.
Hey I am just pointing out facts. Look at the ethnicity of the people who control the media and money markets and make your own conclusions.
I have no problem with Jews working for their collective interests. However when they hypothtically advocate for the mixing of everyone else and promote through their media and psuedo "human rights" organizations,errrr spy operations, like the ADL which damn any other group, especially White people, for working for their collective interests. They say that it is, gasp, racist. It is a hypocrisy that the whole world is taking notice of.
What made me take notice of the realities of the fall of the West a few years back was the barrage of smear words and name calling that is directed at all who stand against the Zionists. Instead of debating the facts of media control, control of banking, control of American foriegn policy, the Zionists and their hangers-on always resort to name calling which is really weak to me. Guess you can't debate when there are all of these damning facts to deal with.
Some ally that bombs the USS Liberty, spies on us here in the US constantly, and has AIPAC'd American foriegn policy.
Perhaps you wouldn't have to "live day to day in fear of annihilation" if you weren't occupying other people's land. Perhaps Madagascar would have been a better option for a homeland?? Damn those Palestinians for not just being happy with the TV and ballgames and ignoring the take over of their country like here in the States.
The root cause of anti-Semitism = Jewish behavior toward other peoples.
And before you call me a ,gasp, Nazi, you should know that I am 27 years old. I was born long after 1945 so don't try that smear tactic stuff with me.
-- Modified on 2/10/2008 10:54:27 AM
"Hey I am just pointing out facts."
Sorry, but no you are not. Nothing you said is a fact. Try looking up the word to see what it means. You make a bunch of half-ass conjectures and wild accusations.
"Instead of debating the facts of media control, control of banking, control of American foriegn policy, the Zionists and their hangers-on always resort to name calling"
Is that a fact?
"The root cause of anti-Semitism = Jewish behavior toward other peoples."
Is that a fact?
Everything you state is your own simplistic opinion, nothing more. You have no facts at all.
"And before you call me a ,gasp, Nazi, ...."
Nicely played. Defend yourself against something that was never said, nor ever even implied. But then again, as you stated as "fact", anyone that dare to call you on your nonsense can do nothing more than resort to name-calling....
You know what I take everything back, I forgot , I am just a worthless goyim, nothing I say can be factual or right unless it is kissing Zionist backside.
Sorry about assuming that you would call me a Nazi, nawww that never happens after just a few lines of adverse conversation with a Zionist...
We goyim, is that meant to mean cattle or just beasts, just protests to much..
I forgot, the Jews never have done anything wrong to anybody, I mean, if you say they do your an vicious anti-Semite right???
You accuse everyone else who dares to disagree with your positions of doing nothing more than engaging in ad hominem attacks and name calling, and that is exactly what you have resorted to throughout.
Again, not a single "fact" have you actually presented. Have you looked up that word yet?
Hey I get it now alright, the facts don't matter!!!
Seriously though is their anything that could be presented that could change the course of events in the world. The only way things will change is when the natural decay of the West is complete and people are more receptive to a more realistic world view. A few nuclear bombs set in motion by "god's chosen" could go a long way to achieve this end.
I am not going to waste my time refering you to reference sources because that would be an utter waste of my time. It was however Ariel Sharon himself in 2001 on Israeli radio who said "We the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it". Guess he is just an anti semite too. There is mountains of factual evidence out there, if you really care about the truth look for it yourself, I only care about those who want to consider facts that are not promoted by the media.
All people need to ask themselves is one question, what group can never be critizied? Heaven knows all of the world's problems of the world are the fault of White Europeans, so critism of them is allowed. All non-White races except Jews can all be critizied to an extent, as long as a White person is not critizing them. The only exception are Jews, they can never be critizied for anything, even by their fellow Jews. Jews such as Norman Finklestien and David Cole have been harrassed,threatened, and censored for discrediting holocaustianity.
Again I am a worthless goy, so nothing I say is right or correct.
Defination of fact (ref: Webster's)
Fact - A statement of truth, a known reality, this stands true unless a Jew is offended by the given truth or reality.
Haven't looked in the mirror, but I have looked at the top of the politics and religion forum and saw something that concerns me that will cause me to end things here. Things I am saying could be construed as mean or inflamatory so I am just going to cut things off here.
TER has more value to me as a review service. I would hate to get banned from here.
I've been lurking for awhile, but have decided to test the water. I am a realist, and my personal philosophy is summed up by saying that the glass is neither half empty, nor half full, but twice as big as it needs to be.
You cannot hang around as a homogeneous group for thousands of years, spawning the most powerful line of religions in known human history without learning a thing or two about propaganda as a weapon. Jews, as a group and now most visually represented by Israel, have been persecuted by societies throughout their history, and have developed a very keen understanding about how and when to use propaganda as a prophylactic to present and future pogroms.
While I disagree with tallslim26 regarding the actual control over the media and government that Jews and Israel exert because I do not believe that it is realistic that any one group could be so unified as to promote and facilitate such a common purpose without being stymied by basic individualistic conflicting motivations; his stated fear that any position critical of Israeli policy and practice brings an immediate charge of antisemitism is well founded and illustrative of Israel's use of propaganda as a weapon.
But then again, so what? Pogroms were only really able to be carried out in history because the ruling religious or secular leaders were able to incite an unreasonable hatred of Jews based on despicable hyperbole, rumor, and innuendo. The only way to effectively combat that is to have a systematic, immediate response built into societal norm that prevents any negativity from growing into an uncontrollable hate and basis for persecution. History has proven time and again that it can and will happen, so anyone who says that we are beyond that as a people are only really proving that the propaganda weapon is working.
Jews have learned that they have to hit hard and fast to win any war, shooting or psychological. The only way propaganda will work is if it is designed to attack the person rather than the message. If Jews were to adopt a campaign of selectively targeting only those criticisms that are truly assailable, then the weapon they have looses its power as allowing discussion and debate of ANY criticism can, and probably will, lead to statements and positions that do constitute biased hate.
So, if you criticize Israel or Jews in any way, you will ultimately be labeled antisemitic. The good in this is that Jews are effectively protecting themselves, the bad is twofold: honest and frank discussion is curtailed or moderated, and real antisemitic haters are able to hide in the weeds by turning the weapon: "I'm not antisemitic, they call everyone that."
Any thoughts?
impressive debut, welcome to the mix.
good luck at staying reasonable -- you will need it here
no matter what Dershowitz and Foxman and AIPAC and the rest of their like-minded playmates say, it's painfully easy to separate the anti-Semites from those who object to Zionism, or to the existence of the Israeli state, or to the policies followed by some Israeli govt's, or simply to US support of Israel [my basic position] over time. just listen to and read the critiques; the true anti-Semites do not have the patience nor the ability to hide their true intent.
I may have misunderstood part of your argument, so apologies in advance if so, but if the collective/communal Jewish response is to label any and all criticism of Israel [or the Jews as a group]as anti-Semitism, they're simply the boy who cries wolf. This will lose it's effectiveness over time, but as long as this tactic continues to succeed, they engender a real ill-will and a feeling that critical voices are being stifled, without regard to reason or contennt of the critiques. Thia ain't gonna win them any friends over the long term.
Besides, it's a rhetorical slight of hand which equates anti-Semitism [hatred of the Jews] with secular critiques of the actions of the Israeli polity. One does not have to be an anti-Semite to be critical of Israel [but for some, as you note, it is a pretext], though Lawrence Summer stumped the land for three years making a stock speech which essentially did just that. Really, to ne these recklessly made charges of anti-Semitism are no different from the red-baiting of Senator Mccarthy. But phenomenally more successful.
in my post. Israel is using labeling as a weapon. Every weapon becomes ineffective over time if used without adaptation. Unfortunately, by using it as a weapon against ALL criticism, there will come a time when crying wolf becomes an issue and the effectiveness is eroded.
You are entirely correct, and I agree wholeheartedly, that you can criticize Israel without being antisemitic, however, you will not be allowed to because of the employment of the weapon. By making people afraid to be labeled antisemitic, they are limiting most reasonable debate and criticism and paving the road for vitriol from people who do not care if they are labeled as antisemitic. Therein lies the beauty of the weapon in that it promulgates the theory that criticism of Israel is antisemitic because most criticism heard actually meets the label. Its really a beautiful use of propaganda as a weapon because it's actively passive.
Thank you for the kind words about the post. I will try to remain reasonable.
i did indeed read it Doc, but I thought, "why hide my light under a bushel?" and started a new one, mostly to try to riff off the thread hijacking nonsense.
did you read any of the items the google search found? or did you selectively read only the ones which confirmed your preconceived notions of [how totally unsurprising] complete and absolute Israeli innocence on this score? don't bother to answer -- the question is meant to be rhetorical.
going back to yesterdays post, I wrote "if verified as true" [re the possibility of Israeli waterboarding]. Did you see the small but important word "IF"? do you understand what purpose it serves?
As per your custom, you missed the real point of my post. But, then again, I could post my laundry list, my grocery list, and my "things to do today list" and you'd respond with your usual missives from AIPAC and the Likud.
but i am grateful that you did not deviate from civility; nor did your response reference your favorite tropes : suicide bombers, the famous Golda Mier quote, general and diffuse Arab terrorism, Iran, Islamofascisms, etc... there's hope indeed for you, doc.
The rest was standard Likudist/Jabotinskyite/Kahanist/Sharonist/Beginite nonsense. When do you, and your like-minded pen-pals like Dershowitz, finally get it throught your heads that the only thing guaranteeing the survival of Israel is the insane support given to it by the US? Genius for survival indeed. Genius for self-serving and delusional propaganda is more like it.
anyway, enjoy cruising the PCH on the trike, and remember again to brake for Pallys. Or at least a token blast of the horn before you plow into them, no doubt at very high speed. What would you call that? Bowling for Pally Pedestrians? Hey, this could be a reality show on Israeli TV. I've copryrighted the idea already, so...
Hey, I just had thought. Are there any Israelis who belong to the Likud Party and to PETA? Interesting combo I'd say.
I'm going back to my nap. Thanks for the diversion.
zisk and tallslim were put up to this, as surrogate thread snatchers.