Politics and Religion

Re: You are not condemming him, nostring? That's un American (eom)
XiaomingLover1 67 Reviews 1963 reads
posted

I'm sure the Arabs will be pleased as punch to know that we [the US] think so highly of them that we provide expensive and exotic weaponry to israel [which they in turn them sell to the PRC] to test against the 'wascaly Arabs. [An aside -- i await the day when the PRC fires upon US aircraft and the PRC missiles are revelaed to have US components transferred to them by -- take a guess who.  Do you know what the reaction will be? -- absolutely nothing]. Talk about cannon fodder!  And then guys like you wonder why the Arabs have such a hard-on against us, and why the hell isn't the US seen as a "honest broker" by those wild, violent and atavistic Arabs.  Could it be the Arbas aren't as stupid as the Israelis wish them to be?  Well, the US seems even stupider than the Israelis need us to be.

By the same token, we can ponder "Israeli" gratitude with, once again, the Pollard episode, as well as the quite inconvenient fact that Israel provided ALL of the pilots and sailors who attacked the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967.  Seems as if the crack IDF warriors can't distinguish between a US flag, a Soviet flag, and an Egyptian flag. [no matter -- there's probably some rock-throw Pally kids they can machine gun.] And on a day which was reported as having 100% visibility.  See where that bit of reasoning gets you?  So, let's see if you will stoop to the level of defending Israel's attacks against the American military.  hey, the Arabs are our enemies, we expect them to hate us.  But Israel is, among other thing, The Light Unto The Nations AND Our Most Relaible Ally In The Middle East.  So, let's hear your spin on that one.  Please refrain from the mistaken attack explnation.  As well, please refrain from Reim's [a poster who is no longer active] sad rationalization that this was necessary to maintain Israel's element of surprise as they winged their way westward to engage the Egyptian air force.

And, let's be big boys and face facts -- the US aid to Egypt since 1979 is a straight-out bribe to Egypt for having signed the 1979 Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's 40 billion $ more [I don't think it'sactually that much] spent on Israel's behalf, if not their behest.  As you in fact point out, $$$ spent with no benefit to the US. Just like every cent spent directly on Israel. Can it be that Israel's actions make all, or most, of our generosity for naught?  Naw, of course not -- it's always those damn murderous Arabs.

BTW, the various Saddam WMDs claims proved to be mostly spurious if not outright distortions and fabrications.  Yet, you show no such skepticism re Israel's claims re Osirak in 1981?  But, I fully expected that by now.

-- Modified on 1/7/2008 6:22:33 PM

And great to know what your "friends" really think of you.

GWB II is so clueless he won't even understand the magnitude of this slap in the face.  Sigh.



Jerusalem Square to be Renamed For Pollard Before Bush Visit
by Ezra HaLevi


A key public square in Jerusalem will be renamed in honor of imprisoned American Jew and Israeli citizen Jonathan Pollard – just in time for the arrival of U.S. President George W. Bush.

The Jerusalem City Council has chosen Monday, Jan. 7, 2008, as the date for a ceremony renaming Paris Square (Kikar Paris) - a public square situated midway between the American Consulate and the prime minister's residence - in honor of Jonathan Pollard.

The name change to Freedom for Jonathan Pollard Square anticipates the arrival of Bush in Israel two days later, on Jan. 9, and marks the start of Pollard's 23rd year in prison. The Jerusalem City Council declared that the name change will take effect immediately and remain in effect until Pollard is released and returned to Israel.

Members of the Jerusalem City Council, Pollard's wife Esther and other public figures will be in attendance at the ceremony. The event is being arranged in coordination with the Jerusalem-based Committee to Bring Jonathan Pollard Home (HaVaad) and Justice4JP. The public is invited and encouraged to attend.

Click here for more information on Jonathan Pollard, published by Arutz-7 to mark 8,000 days of his captivity.

David Shamah contributed to this report

Comment on This Story

Jack Daniels1628 reads

belongs like any other spy.  What makes you think GWB, his father is GHWB, therefore GWB is not GWB II, is not aware of what Pollard did?


Sorry, when it comes to Bush II and his attentiveness to any an all Israeli demands, er, excuse me, requests, I always have reason to worry.  And don't forget, he's a "compassionate" conservative, so the fact that JJP has served 22 years already may stir at his heartstrings.  And, IMHO, we're in the zone of greatest potential for a JJP release: any time it's a presidential election year, and anytime a lame-duck administration is preparing to leave office, it seems that these demands reach both fever pitch and intensity.  The last time around it took, supposedly, the threat of a mass public resignation by the DCI and other State/Defense/intelligence agencies bigwigs to keep this from happening. Time will tell.

I'd suggest e're still in the very early phases of this years effort, as neither Alan Dershowitz nor Elie Wiesel has weighed in yet.

BTW, here's an nice little example of JJP's advocates playing fast and lose with the facts:  it's noted that Pollard is being held without the possibility of parole, and the clear purpose of that is to create the implication that this is part and parcel of the history of unfair treatment meted out to JJP.  However, since parole was eliminated in the federal prison system, everyone there is serving time without the possibility of parole. JJP is being treated no more unfairly than the other 100,000+ persons in the custody of the US Bureau of Prisons.  However, he's certainly got a more active PR team than those other damned souls.

I'd suggest, as a corrective, that any US president, whenever JJP is mentioned officially by any Israeli or any of their countless dedicated acolytes in the US, as a riposte raise the issue of the USS LIberty.  That might cool the "justice for Pollard" ardor.  Or at least cause their masters in Tel Aviv and West Jerusalem a  nanosecond of slight embarrasment.  Perhaps lowering flags to half-mast each year on the aniversary of Israel's attack on the USS Liberty might be the sharp stick in the eye needed for some Israelis to give up the ghost with this outrageous demand upon the US.  Probably not if I know my Most Reliable Allies In The Middle East.

I'm wondering why the Mossad hasn't attempted to bust him out after all these years. Look, here's the perfect alibi too: they can deny all knowledge and  blame it on Al Queda.  Good knows how many of us benighted Americans will buy that one hook, line and sinker.

And who knows?  Perhaps soon we'll start to hear the PR spin that JJP is one of the earlier soldiers of the [inevitable] WOT.  What?

Anyway, from the same sourse, here's a bit more :



Israelis Ask Pres. Bush: Bring Pollard With You!
by Hillel Fendel

Just a week before US President George W. Bush arrives in Israel, the Knesset Audit Committee has voted unanimously to have the State Comptroller prepare a report on Israel's handling of the Jonathan Pollard affair.  Pollard has been imprisoned, without parole, in the United States since 1985 on charges of passing classified information to Israel.

The Audit Committee, chaired by National Religious Party leader MK Zevulun Orlev, is authorized to assign topics to be investigated and reviewed by the State Comptroller.  Lindenstrauss is to investigate the various Israeli governments' handling of the Jonathan Pollard affair, their failure to obtain his release, and what can be done now to bring Pollard home.

"After 22 years in which an Israeli agent and citizen has been rotting in American prison, it is time to check where we failed, and what the government must do to bring about his release," Orlev summed up.

Pollard on Bush's Plane?
On the occasion of U.S. President George Bush's visit to Israel next week, hopes have been raised that Bush might use the occasion to bring Pollard with him on his airplane.  MK Nissan Slomiansky (NRP) wrote a letter to Bush earlier this month, asking him to do just that.

Countless other letters have been written to the President on the issue, one of the most recent of which was penned by Beit El resident Guy Sagiv.  In a heart-felt but firm correspondence dated Dec. 31, 2007, Sagiv wrote, inter alia,

"...In your great country, a Jew is imprisoned - my brother and the brother of all Jews - is Jonathan Pollard. He has been imprisoned in the US for the past 22 years - long enough considering that his punishment is disproportionate to other spies who worked even for enemy nations. Jonathan simply wanted to protect America's greatest ally, Israel... You, Mr. President, have the opportunity to be remembered as one of the great political leaders of this era - and this one act of releasing an imprisoned Jew would earn you that title. The whole Jewish nation will laud you and remember you eternally as the leader who truly led.

"You will be arriving soon in the State of Israel, in the Holy Land. As the door opens on Air Force One, Jonathan Pollard can emerge along with you. History will remember this glorious moment as one of your crowning achievements. You can do it, you can bring him home, NOW. You have a choice either to be a messenger of G-d, or not to be... Please, Mr. President, do the right thing."

Central Square to be Renamed
Also in honor of Bush's arrival, the famous Paris Square in Jerusalem - near Heichal Shlomo, the Kings and Sheraton Plaza hotels, and Terra Sancta, and down the block from both the US Consulate and the Prime Minister's residence - will be renamed "Freedom for Jonathan Pollard Square."  The Jerusalem City Council resolved that the name change will occur on Monday, January 8, in an official ceremony, and will remain in effect until Pollard is released and returns to Israel.

Just last month, Israel marked 22 years of Pollard's incarceration in the U.S. on one charge of passing classified information to an ally - Israel. His life sentence without parole, in violation of a previous plea bargain agreement, is wholly disproportionate to the average sentence - 2-4 years in prison - for this crime.

To Be Investigated
Among the issues for Comptroller Lindenstrauss to investigate will be:

• The talk between then-Prime Minister Shimon Peres and then-US Secretary of State George Schulz, on the day of Pollard's arrest, in which Peres denied knowledge of the affair and promised to help the Americans

• The decision by Peres to return all the documents to the United States without ensuring that they would not be used as evidence against Pollard

• Israel's failure to aid Pollard legally

• Israel's failure to recognize him as an Israeli agent until 13 years after he was arrested

• The Supreme Court's rejection of Pollard's request to be recognized as a Prisoner of Zion

• Ex-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's failure to take a letter to U.S. President Bush signed by 110 MKs asking for Pollard's release

• Israel's failure to have ever filed a formal request with the United States for his release.


Comment on This Story

... I always get a sense you are chortling with glee whenever anything negative happens involving Israel or its interests. I always get a sense of utter indignation and sputtering stupefaction on your part whenever Israel does something to enhance its interests. Your shrill mantra of AIPAC AIPAC AIPAC is not so far gone in my memory I have forgotten it.

Pollard was convicted of treason. True.

The information he passed to the Israeli's led directly to their destruction of Saddam Husseins nuclear reactor at Osirak which surely would have been used to manufacture nuclear weapons to be used not only against Israel, but against US forces as well. Also true.
Twenty five years later, everyone except those with a blind fear and loathing of all things Israel admit the Israeli attack on Osirak saved millions of lives. Conjectural, but undoubtedly true.

You and others huff and puff and get so damned indignant over Israel looking upon Pollard as a hero. Why shouldn't Israel look upon Pollard as a hero? To the Israeli's he IS a hero.

Considering the duplicity with which every other country in the Middle East routinely deals with the west, Israel is the ONLY Democracy in the Middle East btw, why is it that Israel gives you such a conniption fit? Nowhere in the Middle East do Arabs have a better standard of living than those who live in Israel. And why do they all want to go to work there? Maybe because the average Arab resident knows the truth of it but is afraid to say anything because they are concerned about their throats being slit in the night by their own security forces as traitors to the just cause of murdering Jews than they are about a Jewish presence in the world? Some of them actually recognize the path to a better life is to work together with Israel, not to give in to a bunch of butchers and thugs who have no interest other than engorging their own cocks by blowing up Jewish children.
Israel gets 2.1-3 billion in us aid every year. The Egyptians get 2 billion, the jordanians another 1.2 billion, and even the terrorist organizations comprising the so-called Palestinian government are supposed to receive $500 million a year in us foreign aid. Money that routinely wound up in the private coffers of the Monster Arafat or his corrupt cronies, monies used to buy guns and explosives with which to kill jews instead of being used for infrastructure and commerce. Why don't you and your fellows complain about that? Why do you assign a double standard, one for Israel, one for everyone else? It's difficult enough trying to hold to our own higher standards without being made the focus of a special set of rules designed to denigrate and destroy us while the real evil ones scoot around in their flying palaces and floating man made continents.

When are you going to open your eyes to the truth of the matter that sometimes, things are done against common convention simply because it is the right thing to do?  

That's MY take on it.
Peace Out, and Happy New Year

-- Modified on 12/31/2007 4:30:37 PM

I find this thought very interesting :

"When are you going to open your eyes to the truth of the matter that sometimes, things are done against common convention simply because it is the right thing to do?"

This can be used to justify any number of actions, one or two of which you might disagree with.  Be caeful what you choose to open the door to.  This will inevitably come back and bite you. I wonder why Dubya hasn't swayed you with his version of this reasoning?


And what about this one :

"You and others huff and puff and get so damned indignant over Israel looking upon Pollard as a hero. Why shouldn't Israel look upon Pollard as a hero? To the Israeli's he IS a hero."

Well, why shouldn't I look upon him as a traitor [though he pled quilty to charges not nearly as severe as treason].  Espionage is espionage, even when it's committed on Israel's behalf and for it's benefit. Even when you fully approve of it. Don't you think your beloved Likudists would have gotten everything they asked for, and more, had they merely asked?  After all, that's only been the story for the last 40+  years.  Let me know how you feel when some Arab-American spies upon the US, passes info to the Saudis or the Iraqis or the Iranians, which later winds up in the hands of al quaeda  and  is ultimately used to the violent and destructive detriment of Israel.  Yes indeedy, i suspect you'll be huffing and puffing a very different tune should that come to pass.  But I am grateful that, at least in this forum, yo have spared me the "free Pollard" rhetoric of which you no doubt would be a consumate master if you choose to give voice to it.  What's the deal here?  Alan Dershowitz not returning your calls and letters?


Pray tell doc, come clean -- is Pollard a hero to YOU?

Given all we've learned about bogus Iraqi nukes/nuke capabilities/nuke weapons programs, I find it amazing [actually I don't find it amazing at all] that you accept so readily every and all Israeli claims re this.  Oh, wait, the late Menacchem Begin said this, it must be true and cannot ever be doubted.  No doubt Dubya would love to get the same deal from you.  Alas, he's a lush with an anti-Semitic dad  in the hip pocket of the Saudi/Big Oil interests, and his grandpappy Prescott is a Nazi sympathizer with aborted palns to have overthrown the US gov't back in the 1930s.

I would love to see some American political type grow a real pair and propose remaning a street in DC, peferably the street on which the Israeli Embassy is located, USS Liberty Place.  I'd really chortle at that.  Really.  Along with 10 of millions of Americas who huff and puff and grow indignant at being spied aupon by Israel, whose very existence would be for naught in the absense of everything that's been done for it by this benighted and cluelessly short-sighted  polity for the last 40 years.


You write :

"I always get a sense you are chortling with glee whenever anything negative happens involving Israel or its interests. "

Very true inddeed, and if by chance these misfortunates expose some Israeli duplicity or demonstrate in some way how contrary to America's interests support for Israel has become, well, I'm doubly gratified. And if I stop to ponder you undoubted distress, triply gratified, and I'll race here and to other internet forums to share these feelings.  Chortling all the way to the keyboard!!! I wonder what your reactions are when misfortune strikes the Pallys and the others, but I really don't have to wonder too long or to deeply to figure out that answer.

Peace out to you too, Doc, and a Happy New year.  I think I'll return to full-time status very soon.  I'll be curious to see how long after that  you maintain your oft-requested plea for "civility."  I see some distressing signs of slippage already in your post.

But what the heck, nothing personal.

Don't forget to toast AIPAC and the Likud as you revel away this evening and tomorrow.


PS.  You write: "Here's my problem with you..."

Not quite accurate:  your REAL PROBLEM with me is that, as an American, I care more about the US than I do about Israel.


"When are you going to open your eyes to the truth of the matter that sometimes, things are done against common convention simply because it is the right thing to do?"

This can be used to justify any number of actions, one or two of which you might disagree with.  Be caeful what you choose to open the door to.  This will inevitably come back and bite you. I wonder why Dubya hasn't swayed you with his version of this reasoning?

--- Well for one thing, he hasn't done the right thing since he was just a little baby shrub, imho. Except maybe for his immigration bill effort, which his own people kiboshed.

-snip- What's the deal here?  Alan Dershowitz not returning your calls and letters?

Pray tell doc, come clean -- is Pollard a hero to YOU?

1 - The deal is, when you put this section into context, I will respond. But you didn't, you went off on a tangent, and left my original point completely unaddressed.
2 - Alan Dershowitz and I have exchanged emails occasionally in the past. What's it to you?
3 - Johnathan Pollard sacrificed himself for the Greater Good of Israel. The information he provided the Israeli's was information that by rights of the peace agreements and other treaties between the US and Israel, the US should have given Israel in the first place. That information was withheld due to pro-Arab anti-Israel sentiment within the Intelligence community.
His actions undoubtedly saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Yes, many of them would have been Jews, and some of them my relatives. I'm supposed to be angry about this why, again? Oh, you asked me if he was a hero. Are you asking me as a Jew, or as an American?
As an American, he was caught, convicted, and sentenced for his crimes. Justice is served.
As a Jew with strong nationalist ties to Israel,
I honor his personal sacrifice for the Greater Good of Israel and the Jewish people. A hero, no. A martyr who saved lives instead of blowing them up, yeah maybe.

--- Given all we've learned about bogus Iraqi nukes/nuke capabilities/nuke weapons programs, I find it amazing [actually I don't find it amazing at all] that you accept so readily every and all Israeli claims re this.

HELLO!!! Xiao, come on man, the reason Iraq didn't have any nukes by the time Dubya lied our way over there was because the Israeli's took out their reactor in 1981. HELLO!!!! Don't you read your own press clippings? (grin)

---  Oh, wait, the late Menacchem Begin said this, it must be true and cannot ever be doubted.

Now you're just trying to incite me.

---  Alas, he's a lush with an anti-Semitic dad  in the hip pocket of the Saudi/Big Oil interests, and his grandpappy Prescott is a Nazi sympathizer with aborted palns to have overthrown the US gov't back in the 1930s.

  All true. What's your point?

--- I wonder what your reactions are when misfortune strikes the Pallys and the others, but I really don't have to wonder too long or to deeply to figure out that answer.

  Depends on who the misfortunes have befallen. Is it the regular guy who just wants to bake bread in his bakery? Or was it the Hamas butcher who planned the murder of as many Jewish children as he could? Tell me please... as an aside to this... do you honestly believe what you've written about me in this post? Do you truly believe me to be cold uncaring and heartless? My words were passionate, yes, but I really tried to stay away from the personal invectives. Why would you lower the bar so much?

--- PS.  You write: "Here's my problem with you..."

Not quite accurate:  your REAL PROBLEM with me is that, as an American, I care more about the US than I do about Israel.

I fear you are mistaken. I have no issue with anyone putting the US before Israel. you won't believe me regardless of what I say to you, but I also place America first.

My real problem with you is your tunnel visioned unwillingness to even consider all the facts, preferring to utilize only a fraction of the data available to you, because it suits you to do so. Your response here to my post illustrates it quite extensively. You snip sections out of my words, then respond out of context... you ignore factual items that do not groove to your beat... well, ok, we ALL do that from time to time. But anyway, what does it matter, you and I are the only ones who read the Doc v X diaries anyway.

And why are you insulting me further by attempting to align me with that odious little shithead in the Oval Office? You KNOW I despise George W. Bush and his criminal cabal of an administration. Besides, he doesn't like the Jews or the Israeli's anymore than his parents, grandparents (or you) do.

That's MY take on it. And ONLY mine.
Peace Out and Happy New Year

this ones a doozy.  And given the length, well, it's obvious I touched a nerve.  Good for me.  And I didn't even mention A+++C.

Good gambit on my part to toss in the Alan Dershowitz connection.  I though it would just be a comedic trope to irritate you.  You actually correspond with that creature.  Amazing.  Well, birds of a feather [poop on Pallys together?].

I thought i did a pretty good job rsponding to the parts of your post which referenced Pollard and responded to my points.  Your other passionate and steotypical lauding of the Isaelis, well we've all heard that before, so I just let it pass.

Hey, why is it that our combined efforts on this topics garners so little readership?

Anyway, this gives me an idea, you'll see it soon enough sometime later today.

2008 is a Leap Year, so we have an extra day to play.

Maybe you have an extra day to play...
I think I'm going to focus my efforts on more productive pursuits this year.

And the reason it was so long is because I mostly cut n' paste your diatribes in order to respond to them in context when possible.

What a shame. I thought you'd moved on to more inviting topics... think I haven't noticed you've been writing reviews?

I doubt I shall be responding to many more of your "time to incite the Doc" posts. The only reason you get as much mileage as you do out of them, is undoubtedly due to your secret admirers.... the ones who post their loathsome anti-Semitic invective under the guise of an alias because they are too chickenshit to show their faces... much like the black-masked Arab terrorists marching in the streets of pan-Arabia extolling the virtues of murder and mayhem.

OK, I feel cleansed and purged. Got that out of my system early this year.
Thanks Xiao, it's been fun, but its getting old, and I realize now that there is no point in discussing this issue with you. We're both pretty obstinate about our perspectives, and I guess you no longer want to simply agree to disagree. Too bad we couldn't find a common cause to agree upon. Might have been fun. Ciao, Xiao.

That's MY take on it.
Peace Out.

PS - Go ahead and get the last word. It's not going to bother me, and I doubt anyone else is going to care. Consider it my parting gift to you.

TheBillCollector1508 reads

Pollard is traitor and should have faced a firing squad years ago.
People defending this piece of trash make me sick.

-- Modified on 1/1/2008 12:58:05 PM

Doc, it's clear that you never change.

You are going to concentrate on more productive pursuits than responding to me?   That's rich indeed.  Good for you if you keep to your word, but I guarantee that any and every post I make this year on this most favorite of topics will see you swing into immediate and vitriolic, distempered action to rebut my anti-Semitic, terorist-appeasing ways.

My secret admirers?  They indeed are secret. Talk about the Deepest Lurkers imaginable. Even if they have to post under an alias, I'd love to see someone other than me make these points.  No doubt you'll unleash the anti-Semitic rhetorical weapon of mass destruction upon them with as much avidity as you would against me.

Nice touch with the moral equivalence thing, linking any poster critical of Israel to Arab terrorists.   Dershowitz teach you that one?  But, that's the first fallback position of pretty much every advocate of Israel  I've ever heard or read in this land, so it's no surprise to me that it cleared leather so early in the game.

Purged?  Alas, there's scads more where that came from, as all on this board know.  Hope it doesn't interfere with your quest for civility and a discussion of issues devoid of insults and personal diatribes.  Excellent thoughts indeed, but the consistency of your advocacy and application of the aforementioned virtues needs a tad bit of work.

I no longer want to continue to agree to disagree?  Oh, Doc, you really outdo yourself with this one.  What's your definition of agreeing to disagree?  That I muzzle myself in perpetuity on this issue?  Come on my friend, get real.  We both now that neither is ever going to change the mind of the other, so why should I forego, for whatever small pleasure it provides me, posting critically about Israel?  And why forego the opportunity to influence others [miniscule as that is]? I've never asked you to tone down your obvious and manifest hatred of the Pallys/Arabs/Moslems.  The most I've ever done is point it out and chide you about it.  Xrist, talk about giving you a victory by default.  And it's not like I've been burning up the P&R board  recently with posts on this topic.  This is my first substantive criticism of Israel in a good 8 or 9 months.  But, as it ought to be clear to all by now, in Doc's fevered and woefully misguided political worldview, the only good criticism of Israel is NO criticism of Israel.

You really made me laugh, in one of your other posts in this thread, when you imply that I had stopped contributing critiques of Israel because i had written a bunch of reviews in 2007.  AND you thought that was a positive sign.  Doc, i can multitask [in fact, i'm composing this on company time] -- one doesn't efect the other except for the opportunity costs involved of foregone time.  Remember, THE hobby is A hobby, not a life's work.  Now, goofing on Israel, while not my life's work, really can make the grade as a Weberian advocation.

So anyway Doc, I'll be counting up the number of times you accuse me, and others, of anti-Semitism, and from time to time posting the tally.  Just to see how well it comports with your notions of "civility."  We will continue to agree to disagree, but that in no way implies that I'm going to refrain from posting because these thoughts are disagreeable to you. I'm not clear how you came to develop that understanding of "agree to disagree." And i'll wait for my secret admirers to make their presence known, under an alias or otherwise.

Ciao from Xiao.  I'm already exhausted  with you and by you and it's only 37 hours into 2008.  I may have to lurk on the Transsexual Board for several days just to recover my strength.  And my sense of humor.



-- Modified on 1/2/2008 10:10:31 AM

Are you really doing all that while at work? Nice to know you spend so much time on lil ole me. I'm flattered you see me as such an important facet of your oeuvre. Please, continue to do so. I don't mind, really. It keeps the  streets safer. Or something like that. Time to feed the pussy. Ciao ciao, Xiao.


Cpl_Punishment2136 reads

You expect an American to like Pollard, a guy convicted of treason?

You say that Pollard is a hero to Israelis, yet convicted of treason in the USA?  So who was - or is - wrong here?  Are Americans persecuting Pollard because, well, because they like to keep their secrets?  Is that what you're saying?

Sifting thru the rest of it, you say that the rest of the middle east is duplicitous (which I would by & large agree) but that Israel is a Democracy.  So what?  What good does a democracy do us if they turn out to be, against our expectations, also duplicitous?  I mean, we expect the Arabs to lie to us.

Then you talk about how well the Arabs live in Israel.  Why should we give a shit?  What makes you think we give a shit?  They can all cook their camels over their dung as far as I'm concerned.

Then you say that Pollard provided the intel for the Osirak attack which either undoubtably or conjecturally (the terms are contradictory) saved lives.   Do you suppose he might have left that little part of foreign policy up to the Secretary of State?  

How do you think the Israelis would react to somebody selling their secrets to the USA?  Do you think he'd get to trial?

This is not something you should argue.  The minute you say that an American traitor is a hero in another country, you can't get away from the logic that the 2 countries have basic conflicts of interest - to say the least.

** You expect an American to like Pollard, a guy convicted of treason?

No.

** You say that Pollard is a hero to Israelis, yet convicted of treason in the USA? So who was - or is - wrong here?

The double standard applied to Israel is what is wrong. That we, the "people" do not, nor have we ever had all the facts, is wrong.

** Are Americans persecuting Pollard because, well, because they like to keep their secrets?  Is that what you're saying?

No. And please do not put words in my mouth.

The median sentence for the offense Pollard committed - one count of passing NON-INJURIOUS classified information to an ally - is two to four years. Although Pollard pled guilty as part of a plea bargain, he was shown no leniency and was given the maximum sentence. Pollard was never charged, indicted or convicted of treason.

** Sifting thru the rest of it, you say that the rest of the middle east is duplicitous (which I would by & large agree) but that Israel is a Democracy.  So what?  What good does a democracy do us if they turn out to be, against our expectations, also duplicitous?  I mean, we expect the Arabs to lie to us.

Yes, we expect the Arabs to lie. We expect the Israeli's to tell the truth. And yet, it seems the world is so quick to believe the lies written about Jews and Israel by the Arabs, and yet swiftly condemns the Israeli's at any opportunity. I am reminded of the Jenin incursion a few years ago... the Arabs claimed all sorts of slaughter and mass murder took place and even produced photographs of dead bodies, which miraculously were alive in news footage a week later...  the "Jenin Massacre" which turned out to be the Jenin Lie... FRONT PAGES for days about those awful Israelis killing all those poor little Arabs... and a 2-lines under the ad for mattresses on page 27 retraction when it turned out to have been a staged lie produced by members of the fucking BBC in conjunction with members of Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.
And your own words prove my point about a double standard.

** Then you talk about how well the Arabs live in Israel.  Why should we give a shit?  What makes you think we give a shit?  They can all cook their camels over their dung as far as I'm concerned.

My point was, if Israel is so Hell bent on trashing the Arabs, why is it they enjoy a higher standard of living in the country of "the enemy" than they will ever enjoy in their home country of Egypt, or Jordan or Lebanon or Syria, etc etc etc.
The fact you don't give a shit about them speaks poorly of your own American values, don't you think?

** Then you say that Pollard provided the intel for the Osirak attack which either undoubtably or conjecturally (the terms are contradictory) saved lives.   Do you suppose he might have left that little part of foreign policy up to the Secretary of State?

You mean Caspar Weinberger, an avowed and open anti-Semite with strong ties to Pan-Arabia both politically and financially?  

** How do you think the Israelis would react to somebody selling their secrets to the USA?  Do you think he'd get to trial?

Senator David Durenberger, former head of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee claimed that the CIA had turned an officer in the Israel Defense Forces, and that he had been an active source during the 1982 Lebanon War. His name was Yosef Amit and he was an intelligence officer for the Israeli Army. He was sentenced to 12 years for spying for the US.

** This is not something you should argue.  The minute you say that an American traitor is a hero in another country, you can't get away from the logic that the 2 countries have basic conflicts of interest - to say the least.

I have to argue it, Cpl, for the simple reason that somebody has to. And I've never been one to sit still and turn the other cheek and be a lamb led to slaughter.
The United States and Israel have no conflict of interest. It is the Arab nations who see the American Israeli relationship as a conflict of interest to them.
There was no state of Israel in the 1890's, and yet the Arabs were all up in arms over the American infidels Morgan Rockefeller and Roosevelt and proclaiming Holy Jihad against the infidels. Over oil.
The Jews just gave them an easier scapegoat upon which to blame their problems when the State of Israel was created. They've hated the Jews since Ishmael became jealous of his younger brother Isaac and left home some 4000 odd years ago.

Can you really sit there and tell me that in 1949 the Israeli Jews wanted to go to war with the entirety of the Arab world? Or do you think it more likely they would have been more than happy to make a peace treaty with their new neighbors and build up the land instead of building walls and grave markers?
 
That's MY take on it.
Peace Out, and Happy 2008.

Cpl_Punishment1798 reads

that foreign relations with israel are no more or less complex than any other country, and the idea that we are "friends" or "enemies" of any particular country is nothing more than a momentary shorthand rationalization.

I think that any permanent (ie more than 20 minutes) commitment to any idea or party that ties us to the opposite side of the world is a dangerous delusion.


A bit of an isolationist philosophy imo, but I grant you the truth of it.
One Hundred and Fifty Years ago, I might even have agreed with you. But the Internet and other technological advances changed all that and made the world a much smaller place at a much faster pace. Today, the events that happen on the other side of the world are impacting us constantly, and instantly. We can not hide our heads in the sand like the ostrich; isolationism can only lead to Fascism.

That's MY take on it.
Peace Out
Happy New Year Cpl

Cpl_Punishment1981 reads

'permanent committment'.  I am not opposed to intervening on the other side of the world in all cases.  

But any long term committment, particularly given that nobody is half that committed to us, is wildly unwise.

To say nothing of the fact that we should have higher priorities, like preserving our own democracy, instead of letting some schlub talk us into a bullshit war.

TheBillCollector2147 reads

would not be happening now.
Israel naming a street after that piece of shit, is a slap in the face to ALL Americans, and show the true arrogance of that "country"

Jonathan Jay Pollard2009 reads

lucky for me, I pled guilty to non-capital charges.  

does this mean i can't ecpect you to sign any pettitions for my release that might cum your way?

Cute :)
Here's my take for what it's worth. Countries, even friendly countries, spy on each other. That's the way the world works.
Even the Russians had the decency to return Gary Powers after 2 years and that during the Cold War.
So here's my questions to all the politicos out there. Why is JJP the longest held individual in US history for spying?
Governments are far from perfect and that includes Israel's government.
I'm not defending the guy and I'm not condemning him. But there's certain rules to this game that countries in general play by when these situations occur and frankly this case has not been treated in the same way as others between friendly countries.

"...don't do the crime if you can't do the time..."

JJP rolled the dice, took a big chance, and lost.  Now he and Dershowitz and the Likud and AIPAC want a do-over.

Typical.  SOP.  Unsurprising.  Par-for-the course.

I do indeed "chortle" when I stop to consider that Mordechai Vannunu has served less time than has JJP.

Look, the US pays  such excruciatingly close attention to the care and feeding of Israel's interests, even to the detriment of  it's own, I just can't see where ayone has any solid grounds to kick. [If the US has been vindictive here, and it's possible, the sting and blatancy of the betrayal here might be part of the explantion.] Except JJP, and he's not exactly a disinterested party.

BTW, Powers was swapped for convicted Soviet spy Rudolph Abel, not released as part of some beneficent act by Nikita Khrushchev.  So, if there are any American spies languishing in Israeli prisons that you can name, I'm open to the possibility of a trade.  But as there are not...

Nope sorry, I'm not. I'm neither praising the guy either. As a stated he played the game and rolled up short.
In response to the comment on Powers and Abel, that's very correct it was a swap. I find it interesting the two British spies where caught in the late 90's and very quietly and discreetly returned to Brit's with not so much of a peep. Not that the Brit's haven't had a long history of spying on us. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Security_Coordination)
And it isn't like our hands are completely clean either.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070200-02.htm
So again I ask why all the foaming at the mouth about JJP? I can venture a guess though.
I'm curious BC did you serve in the military? Because I have. I'll tell you what also. I love this country but I don't always love what it does. Questioning the choices the are made I think is very American.

Peace

well, for me, it's loke this :  when support for the policies of the UK CONSTANTLY makes  creates for us enemies thoughout the Arab/Moslem world,  and CONSTANTLY threatens to drag us into bloody and violent conflct somewhere, with some party with whom we have no real conflict save our support for the UK, than I'll wax as indignant about UK spies as I do about Israeli spies.


When the UK's very existence is guaranteed only by the political beneficience, or is it the political stupidity, of the US, than I'll wax as indisnant about UK espionage as I do Israeli espionage.

Oh ok so now it's not the espionage part that's the problem it's the fact that supporting Israel pisses off the Arab world. Really?
You're right we shouldn't support our allies but wait what about World War I and II didn't we save the Brits then? I guess we shouldn't have gotten into that one because that pissed off the Germans and Japanese. You're right supporting Britian has never "drag(ged) us into bloody and violent conflict" anywhere.
Oh and that bit that we "have no real conflict" with the Arab/Moslem world I'm sure is news to them since Bin Laden made it perfectly clear that the 9/11 attack was about US troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia following Irag I which Israel had zero to do with. And before you say it, yes he's mentioned in passing Israel but that was the usual lip service to the Arab street.
What's really pissed off the Arab/Moslem world is not the US support of Israel it's the US's own idiotic policies in the name of oil.
Xiaoming you're making this way to easy buddy :) Ok let's try another reason :)


Hold your horses.  The espionage pisses me off.  and the losses the US incurs by virtue of suspporting Israel pisses me off.  And Israel's gratitude for the sacrifices we make on thier behalf is demonstrated how -- by spying on us?  Good show, but a simple Thank you might be more in order.

It's not about oil, it's never been primarily  about oil, it's about Ari, primarily, plain and simple.  Why is this so difficult for the partisans of Israel to admit?

US intervention in WWII  -- US declares war on Japan in response to the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor.  Germany and Italy then declare war on the US in response to the US declaration of war on Japan [persuant to a treaty].  And yes, i know, FDR was itching to get into a war with Germany.

For someone who is not a partisan of the Israeli side you sure show a very strong familarity with and affinity for their arguments.

Oh, and BTW, if supporting Israel is so great for America, why was it that Bush I had to bend over backwards to keep Israel uninvolved in the US military effort against Saddam, and constantly placate and reassure the Arabs for months  that this would be the case? Arabs would rather be invaed by Saddam than assisted by Israel.  What does that tell about Israel's popularity amongst the Arabs?  Yep, all Israel did was reap the benefits, and at the cost of a few mistargeted Scuds.  and imediately after Gulf War I ended, as the US was still burying it's dead. Shamir and AIPAC launched their demands, er, excuse me, politely made a request, for the 12 BILLION $$$$ of US loan guarantees for illegal West Bank settlement housing.  Yep, gotta love them Zion men.  Shame is an unknown concept to them.   As is, sadly, gratitude.

If you honestly believe binLaden 091101 had nothing to do with US support of Israel, that his mention of Israel and the Pallys was boilerplate to placate the Arabs, youa re indeed sadly mistaken. Hope you like the fforeign policy outcomes these beliefs of yours make possible.

"My enemies' friend is my enemy."  sometimes you can't help it, but other times you can.  This is one of those other times.

Nostring, it's guys like you who make it very easy for Israel and AIPAC to rape and batter to near-death this country's national interests.   How do you so easily accept such self-interested Israeli propaganda?

No it's your contention that if there was not Israel 9/11 would have happened? Hum don't know about that one.
As for Pearl Harbor FDR knew it was going to happen, there was intercepted communications weeks before but he know he couldn't sell a war to the US public unless the US was attacked and even then that leaves WWI.
Hum Israel never ever did anything that benefited the US? Taking out Irag's nuclear reactor (provided by our good buddies the French) didn't help out the US because if it didn't Saddam would most definately have had a couple of nukes.
And btw almost every military weapons system has been battle tested and improved on by the US and Israeli interaction. Case in point the Patriot battery that didn't work worth a shit was provided to Israel who worked out the in the field issues which then became the Patriot II in the US and the Arrow system in Israel.
As for the Arab/Muslim world as I see it they haven't exactly been cummy with West since about the 7th century.
As for gratitude, Egypt who has received over $50 billion in US aid in recent years paid back our support with providing the 9/11 attacks (the ring leader and 4 of the hijackers where Egyptian and this from a "moderate" Arab government)

I'm sure the Arabs will be pleased as punch to know that we [the US] think so highly of them that we provide expensive and exotic weaponry to israel [which they in turn them sell to the PRC] to test against the 'wascaly Arabs. [An aside -- i await the day when the PRC fires upon US aircraft and the PRC missiles are revelaed to have US components transferred to them by -- take a guess who.  Do you know what the reaction will be? -- absolutely nothing]. Talk about cannon fodder!  And then guys like you wonder why the Arabs have such a hard-on against us, and why the hell isn't the US seen as a "honest broker" by those wild, violent and atavistic Arabs.  Could it be the Arbas aren't as stupid as the Israelis wish them to be?  Well, the US seems even stupider than the Israelis need us to be.

By the same token, we can ponder "Israeli" gratitude with, once again, the Pollard episode, as well as the quite inconvenient fact that Israel provided ALL of the pilots and sailors who attacked the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967.  Seems as if the crack IDF warriors can't distinguish between a US flag, a Soviet flag, and an Egyptian flag. [no matter -- there's probably some rock-throw Pally kids they can machine gun.] And on a day which was reported as having 100% visibility.  See where that bit of reasoning gets you?  So, let's see if you will stoop to the level of defending Israel's attacks against the American military.  hey, the Arabs are our enemies, we expect them to hate us.  But Israel is, among other thing, The Light Unto The Nations AND Our Most Relaible Ally In The Middle East.  So, let's hear your spin on that one.  Please refrain from the mistaken attack explnation.  As well, please refrain from Reim's [a poster who is no longer active] sad rationalization that this was necessary to maintain Israel's element of surprise as they winged their way westward to engage the Egyptian air force.

And, let's be big boys and face facts -- the US aid to Egypt since 1979 is a straight-out bribe to Egypt for having signed the 1979 Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's 40 billion $ more [I don't think it'sactually that much] spent on Israel's behalf, if not their behest.  As you in fact point out, $$$ spent with no benefit to the US. Just like every cent spent directly on Israel. Can it be that Israel's actions make all, or most, of our generosity for naught?  Naw, of course not -- it's always those damn murderous Arabs.

BTW, the various Saddam WMDs claims proved to be mostly spurious if not outright distortions and fabrications.  Yet, you show no such skepticism re Israel's claims re Osirak in 1981?  But, I fully expected that by now.

-- Modified on 1/7/2008 6:22:33 PM

You obviously have never been in uniform (playing Call of Duty doesn't count btw) because if you have, you'd know that accidents in the midst of combat happen and happen often. It's called friendly fire and yes it can happen in 100% visablity. I should know I got hit in a training exercise by a shrapnel from a mortar short round in the leg (on a 100% visability day no less).
It could have been an accident it could not have been an accident. I don't know I wasn't there. Were you? This I do know the USS Cole was no accident, neither was the Beirut attacks, 9/11 one and two, the Iranian hostage crisis I could keep going but don't want to belabor the issue. Think the point is made.  
As for Osirak, I guess the "Israeli's claims" must have been pretty damn convincing since the Iranian's tried taking it out in 1980 before the successful Israeli strike. Plus the French flat out said that they had engineers there and where bring it online too. Opps.
Unlike you I'm sure, I've actually been around the Middle East pretty extensively. Been to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Israel. If you have, you'd realize that Arab governments have a vested interested in keeping the street foaming at the mouth over Israel and the West in general. It keeps the street from stringing these "heads of state" up by their thumbs. Unfortunately, this has created very fertile soil for the "angry young Arab"
If you where objective about the situation (which you obviously are not) you'd see the Middle East is not such a simplistic place and has been screw for the last 1000 years. Blame that on Israel.
I'm done here you depress me.

Right, a friendly fire incident which lasted  2 1/2 to 3 hours, with separate attack waves by jet fighters and then PT boats!  Xrist, talk about friendly!  And that's some fire!

Just so it's clear, since supporters of Israeal demand 100% support 100% of the time, i foster no illusions about nor love for any of the Arab gov'ts.  If I had to choose a place of exile, I'd choose Israel over any Arab country.  But that's not my point, as you and others can tell well enough.  Israels's  comparative virtue compared to the Arabs is not a basis for the US choosing a side -- either side -- in which no material interest is involved.  I wish merely to get us out of the crossfire, and our endless and mindless support of Israel makes that simple desire impossible of accomplishment.  It's really that simple, and that's all i wish to convince anyone of.  

Since this is our last commu, and since I think of things other than Israeli treachery, let me thank you for breaking the ice and reviewing milani willaims --  I've been holding offf on her for months waiting for a review, and viola!  Our politics may put us at loggerheads, but do allow me to commend your eye for the ladies.

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