Politics and Religion

Come on Bill - read the transcript
Puck 20 Reviews 2202 reads
posted

He bigins by explaining that he is not here as John Kerry. Is that clear enough for you?

Statement of Mr. John Kerry

"...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."




Here he details what the men in Detroit testified to - NOT WHAT HE SAYS THEY DID:

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."





Here he talks about why they call themselves 'Winter Soldiers' - this is what you excerpted, Bill, and it is NOT the part about atrocities:

"We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."

Get a little honest, Bill - I know you can read and comprehend. It's there in black and white.

That is such a tired piece of talking point bullshit - I'm going to re-eduacate you BSD, you're smarter than this.

John Kerry was the spokesman for the "Winter Soldiers" and testified before Congress on the substance of the Winter Soldier Investigation.

John Kerry never accused ANY soldier of a war crime or of being a 'baby killer'. He simply carried the results and reported them to Congress.

Here's what the winter soldier investigation was:

The "Winter Soldier Investigation" was a media event sponsored by the Vietnam Veterans Against the War intended to publicize war crimes and atrocities by the United States Armed Forces and their allies in the Vietnam War. The VVAW challenged the morality and conduct of the war by showing the direct relationship between military policies and war crimes in Vietnam. The three-day gathering of 109 veterans and 16 civilians took place in Detroit, Michigan, from January 31-February 2, 1971. Discharged servicemen from each branch of military service, as well as civilian contractors, medical personnel and academics, all gave testimony about war crimes they had committed or witnessed during the years of 1963-1970.

Future Senator John Kerry, then a decorated Lieutenant in the Naval Reserve (Inactive), while later speaking before a Senate Committee, further explained "We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."

The organizers of the Winter Soldier Investigation took several steps to guarantee the validity of the participants.

Each veteran's authenticity was checked before the hearings by the investigation event organizers, and subsequently by reporters and Pentagon officials. In addition, they also gave specific details about their units and the locations where the events had occurred. Those who wanted to testify were carefully screened by the officers of VVAW, and care was taken to verify the service records and testimony of the veterans. After the severe criticism of the accuracy of Mark Lane's book about atrocities a month before the event, the organizers of the Winter Soldier Investigation made the credibility of the participants a top priority. All veterans participating in Winter Soldier were required to bring their discharge papers (DD-214's) and IDs

harryj1528 reads

Puck, you can bathe Kerry in pickle juice and whitewash him but he will always be a certified douchebag.

That was absolutely deplorable....I'm not saying you had to like John Kerry as a politician, but the man was a war hero, who didn't avoid service or get a special deferment like a certain bastard whose name I forget whose the current POTUS....

harryj1659 reads

Moose, you are pretty loose with your labels.

apply the smear equally - as it belongs equally applied.

kerry himself got 4 deferments so i don't know who the fuck moose thinks hes talking about

question i have is now that the dems are such GI joes When is Hillary and chelsea going in for basic training?  are they just gonna disband rthe military altogether or have dems just been TALKING OUT THERE ASSES when they say only people who served have a right to deploy troops into battle///

my guess is the doubletalking starts right here.....fire away

I guess that makes him about 10 times the man Cheney is as Kerry actually WENT to VietNam and was wounded in actual combat.
Why would you bring up his deferments if he didn't use them? That makes him even more the hero!

Dude, calm down.
He was actually in Vietnam, unlike Bush.
He actually saw combat, unlike Bush.
While he may have asked to delay service, he didn't press it and he decided to enlist.
None of this carries any shame.
Unlike Bush.

im calm, i juts hate to type

and btw, the subject is ketchup boy kerry, NOT cheney and bush or rove or neo-cons or halliburton or the saudis or the MIC or .....blah blah blah

so, try to stay on topic.

Puck, you have really touched a major nerve on this subject. If you would read the sworn testimony of the medics that treated Kerry's Purple Heart wounds, you would see they were basically band-aid scratches. One was even self-inflicted when the dipshit fired an M-69 grenade launcher at a trajectory that allowed the grenade to impact close enough to him that he wounded himself. Officers are NOT ISSUED and DO NOT carry the M-69 grenade launcher. He was fucking around with it and it bit him in the ass. I was in Viet Nam when the cocksucker got there, and I was still there when he left. I was at Bien Wah, Danang, Phu Cat, and Tan Son Nhut during my tour of duty. Never did I see any of his so-called atrocities committed by American troops. I did see the shit committed by the VC. A USAF medical team went into a village near Tan Son Nhut to innoculate the children against disease. Winning their hearts and minds, right?After leaving, the Viet Cong went into the same village after dark, and cut of the left arm of every child that had been innoculated. The villagers never again allowed Americans to enter. I never personally saw anyone high on drugs either. That is reserved for Hollywood-Oliver Stone, (Platoon), and Francis Ford Coppola, (Apocolypse Now). It probably did happen, but not to the degree you might think. And, like I said, I never saw anyone high. Tan Son Nhut was attacked nightly by various size forces. One such attack was by 3 battalions of NVA. They quickly overran one outpost, and proceeded to skin 2 troops alive while transmitting their screams on the comm link. Think what you will of GWB, your prerogative as a free american, but John Kerry is a total fucking asshole that has no integrity whatsoever. I refuse to even call him a man. He carries self-aggrandizement to new heights. BTW, officers do not enlist, they accept a commission from congress, either regular, or reserve. Sweaties, like me, enlist. Any questions?

Why not quote Kerry directly?

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam."

That about sum it up for ya?

You say that you were in the military.  Recognize that in war, people die.  While I think that our participation in Viet Nam was not justified (due to the civil war nature of that conflict) I do not think that we on a day to day basis commited the crimes that Kerry accused his fellow soldiers of.  Were that the case... we would have had many more than just Lt. Calley on trial.  

AND the frickin press cameras would have had it on tape and film.... what is on film is the fact that we were fighting an enemy that failed to wear a uniform, used kids to kill and fought a gurella war.  As I have practically screamed on this discussion group, we fought as if we were fighing a you're-a-peeing style war.... not unlike we are doing in Iraq.... we are gonna have to get it through our heads, that other folks ignore the Geneva Convention, War kills folks and not all of the politico-religious-ethno groups are lead by a "Swell Guy!"

But Kerry?  if all that happened - and he was a part of it, he should have shared a cell with Calley.  In short, where attrocities are commited by the army, navy, marines or AF, the  perpetrator is caught, tried and convicted...  

But then again, I guess we are all scum.  Simply because we live in the U.S.  and are citizens... (almost forgot that last part).

Read what you just posted, dude.

"I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam."

He clearly states that he is REPORTING what the veterans at the Winter Soldier Investgation testified to. He did not accuse anyone of anything. In the words you just quoted, Kerry's own words, he stated:

"over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command"

THEY testified. Get it straight. Attack Kerry for being a wimp and not stepping up like a man to defend against the Swifties. Attack him for being a pussy and not challenging the vote in Ohio. Don't make shit up about him, there's more than enough to tarnish the guy.

Many I know came back with NO stories of killing outside of combat... NONE nada... so to report that these were crimes commited on a day to day basis... is wrong.

HIS FRICKING words...
"they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

Kerry is saying exactly what I said he said... he is accusing the US soldiers in viet nam of killing innocents.

end of this.

Transcript:

I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped ......  And here is the part you quoted.

Reading the beginning kind of changes that doesn't it?

Come on, man - have a little intellectual honesty. This isn't evan debatable - it's fucking black and white. I know you're not this thick - I'd expect it from quad or harryj, but you have more class than this.

I am.... here as one member of the group.... yada yada yada...

in short, he is speaking as one member of the group.... but the words and the accusations in that instance are HIS as a part of the group that he claims membership in...

in short... HE SAID IT!

Why don't you read what YOU posted and what KERRY SAID:

Future Senator John Kerry, then a decorated Lieutenant in the Naval Reserve (Inactive), while later speaking before a Senate Committee, further explained "We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."""
...............................................


NOtice the word "WE" shot thru THIS QUOTE.

You cannot on one hand seek to distance Kerry from these words while at the same time HE IN HIS WORDS sought to link himself to these soldiers AND THEIR INVOLEMENT IN CRIMES

anyway you slice it, 4 DEFERMENTKERRY likes to have his cake and eat it too... and he does'nt seem to mind who gets fucked from it....

I think McCain could share some thoughts along those lines.......

He bigins by explaining that he is not here as John Kerry. Is that clear enough for you?

Statement of Mr. John Kerry

"...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

WINTER SOLDIER INVESTIGATION

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."




Here he details what the men in Detroit testified to - NOT WHAT HE SAYS THEY DID:

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."





Here he talks about why they call themselves 'Winter Soldiers' - this is what you excerpted, Bill, and it is NOT the part about atrocities:

"We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out."

Get a little honest, Bill - I know you can read and comprehend. It's there in black and white.

he sought to create association with those soldiers, now you want to try to seperate him out.

""we could not tell what went on in Vietnam""

well, where are HIS OWN testimonies about "what HE SAW"?????

What crimes did Kerry witness and is now seeking to cover up?

I'm sorry but he dude is a fucking poser Puck

He didn't need to create an association with them - they were all members of the VVAW.
He never claimed to have witnessed atrocities. He represented a veterans group before Congress and reported on what they found in their investigation.
Nobody said every soldier in Vietnam was a babykiller.
Nobody but people like you who are trying to make it sound like Kerry said that.
Just read what was said. It's not tough, you can do it.



-- Modified on 11/27/2007 6:08:15 PM

The statement "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command" would certainly make one think it was routine... and done with wide knowledge...

and as I have said... where is the evidence.... photos...etc.  does not exist... where are the records... don't exist... and where it does exist... the perps were caught - tried and punished.

and kerry - DID Make the statement.  if he did not believe it - then why say it.  they could have picked another spokesman...

JumpBlues7151468 reads

Please get over it...HE LOST!! I love reading propaganda reports, you do know they are a dime a dozen??..lol..What amazes me is how utterly ridiculous one looks in sucking up to all this so called truth! Kerry to me is America's most famous gigilo. He married extremely wealth women who didn't earn a dime of what they inherited! Like 2 peas in a pod.....People bragging on someone else's success like its their own! And this isn't propaganda either! these are hard nose facts! Fortunately for Kerry he had zombies like you believing everything he said was the absolute truth. Fortunately for the reat of us...THE SAMRT ONES we saw through him. Now go put another John Edwards sticker on your car, cowboy; you'll be 0 and 2 in a few months....p.s. thanks for the laugh Mr. Clueless

Nuff said. You're way too SAMRT for me.

and Puck thats so obnoxious to correct for a obvious typo..but then again if you have no credible debate without puffing up your nose so be it.

~still giggling over that one !!!!..... now that was the best laugh I've had today. Thanks for putting the name Kerry in the same sentence as decorated and Naval, that was a good one.....

-- Modified on 12/1/2007 3:51:25 PM

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