It's easy for you to pen a breezy post about this. You have access to DNS lists that document hobbyists who, among other things, are habitual NCNS'ers. And I think that's a good thing. Hobbyists should have access to the same type of info.
After a lot of discussion on the national board, I am submitting a proposal about how to deal with no call/no show by providers and hobbyists.
My proposal is that TER create two searchable data bases. One would show NC/NS by providers, and one would show NC/NS by hobbyists.
I am not talking about providers or hobbyists who are merely late, or who cancel appointments in advance. We all know problems can arise that can force you to run behind schedule or cancel an appointment. Rather, I am talking about when a provider or hobbyist completely and utterly stands up the other person. Thus, for example, a provider who keeps a two hour slot open in her schedule, and the hobbyist just never shows up. Or the hobbyist who gets in the car and drives 30 miles to the location, only to find that the provider won't answer her phone.
For the people immediately impacted by these incidents, we can all understand their aggravation. But even if this has never happened to you, I submit you are still affected by it, due to the ripple effect every NC/NS causes.
For example, some providers have told me that they have to assume NC/NS will be a regular part of their schedule. Given that, they have two choices. If they leave the spots open anyway, then they lose money. That will force them to raise prices, eventually, because time is money. It will also discourage them from touring other locations (it won't be worth going from NYC to Long Island, if it's a good bet that half of your prospects will NC/NS). Alternatively, they will react by overbooking. Every hobbyist knows what a drag that is -- showing up and having to wait 30 minutes; or coming to a room that's a complete disaster area; or getting in bed with a provider who hasn't had time to clean up from the last visitor.
Thus, if hobbyists commit NC/NS, it's not just the providers who lose, but also our fellow hobbyists. We will have providers who will be more difficult and expensive to see, because their schedules will be screwed up by the jerks who reserve slots they never use.
The same ripple effect works in reverse. Many hobbyists have limited flexibility to see providers. We have wives, jobs, etc. and it is not easy to disappear for a couple hours. Our limited hobbying time is precious. So, if we are stood up by a provider, it hurts not just us. It also hurts the other providers we could have seen instead, but now won’t, because the time for the visit is already blown. When a provider commits a NC/NS, another provider loses $$$.
We can even imagine hobbyists resorting to the same type of double booking that providers might practice. If I am going into the City but not sure if the provider will show up, I might book two providers at the same time, so at least I will have one sure date. And then, of course, I could wind up pulling a NC/NS myself.
As you can see, if the NC/NS problem gets out of hand, it will have a spiraling effect. The more NC/NS by hobbyists, the more overbooking by providers. The more overbooking, the more NC/NS by providers. And so on.
Hopefully this convinces you this is a meaningful problem, even if you personally have not experienced it. What can be done?
The problem is that TER currently has no search engine for NC/NS for either the provider or the hobbyist. The providers have no searchable data base on this site at all. Presumably they are somewhat less interested in whether we hobbyists are cute and sexy, and more interested in whether we just show up with the $$$. But right now they cannot even check that. For the hobbyists, we have lots of great search engines, but you can't write a review if you don't see the provider. Therefore, if it's a NC/NS, there is no way to track it.
Thus, my proposal is to create two search engines, one for providers and one for hobbyists, to track people who commit NC/NS.
Let's deal with tracking NC/NS committed by providers, first, because it's less complicated. For providers who are already on TER and have a profile on TER, the list would look something like the white list for hobbyists. It would simply indicate the name of the provider, the name of the hobbyist who reported the NC/NS, and the month/year of the NC/NS. This could be linked to their profiles, so you would know which provider you are talking about when you see them on a NC/NS list.
For a provider who has never been TER reviewed, it's trickier, because they don't have a TER profile to link to. The solution would be to create a NC/NS search list that would search via phone number or internet site combined with name. Some providers are going to periodically change their professional names, so if *Sally* is a NC/NS one month, she may be calling herself *Mary* next month. But it's going to be hard for her to stay in business if she is constantly changing her web location and phone number.
Turning to NC/NS committed by hobbyists, my proposal is a searchable data base accessible to providers (and only providers), which again would identify the hobbyist who committed the NC/NS, the provider who reported him, and the month/year of the occurrence. For hobbyists with TER handles, again, this is easy, the hobbyist would just be identified by his TER handle, and the list would be searchable via TER handle.
For non-TER hobbyists, again, it's trickier. My proposal would be to have the list searchable by hobbyist first name and area code (not the entire phone number). Like providers, hobbyists can use false names and can switch their phones, but it's going to be difficult, and they are less likely to do it, since they won't even know they are on this list.
Some will object that NC/NS is just the hazard of doing business. Sometimes people don't show up to dentist appointments. Sometimes you wait all day for the plumber and he never arrives. But this is a unique business, because provider and hobbyist alike have nowhere to go to seek redress if someone screws with them. If you don't show up to your dentist appointment, you will get a bill sent to you in the mail. That won't work here.
Second, there is the risk of abuse. Providers and hobbyists (or shills and competitors) may post false accusations of NC/NS. The same thing can be said, however, about discussion board posts and reviews.
We can also include some safeguards. First, you should not be allowed to make a NC/NS complaint if you are not a TER member (hobbyist or provider) using your TER handle.
Second, just as there are with reviews, there should be an opportunity for hobbyists and providers to challenge accusations of NC/NS. I would go a little further, and suggest that if a NC/NS complaint is made, that the TER hobbyist/provider be told via PM from the staff before it is posted, so they are given a chance (say 72 hours) to respond. The PMs would not be published, of course, just the outcome.
Another complaint is that the system won't be foolproof. Further, while this proposal will probably do a good job of policing TER members, the non-TER hobbyists/providers might continue to fly under the radar. That's true, but that also proves too much, because the same is true about the review system in general. A number of hobbyists and providers continue to see people who are not on TER (for whatever reason). That's their choice. But it will enhance TER (and enhance the worth of being a TER member), if a hobbyist or provider can check instantly to see if this person has a history of breaking his/her appointments.
Lastly, there is the argument that providers or hobbyists might have other resources off site to counteract this problem. But the question for us should be what we can do to improve this site. The better we make this site for everyone, the better off responsible hobbyists and providers will be. Only the irresponsible flakes who blow off appointments will lose.
I would propose that it be adopted again with safeguards, but on the whole it could help.
One such safeguard would be that this list be kept separate from the reviews. That the list provide specifics of web-site, general time frame and of course who reported the NC/NS. As was stated above, if someone calls me to cancel (and it has happened) or if I call to cancel (and it has happened) they would NOT be listed. this would be strictly for NC/NS. I also like the point about a 72 hr. window to address the issue...
It would be interesting to gather statistics on who is more guilty of NC/NS! for my money - it would probably be the hobbiests! but hey, what do I know. While I like the White Knight that TER instituted.... this would kinda be like a "dark knight"! lol -
When I meet with providers one comment that I constantly get is the opinion that they are relieved that I am a pretty nice guy, helping them identify at least one type of guy who may not be so nice - I would think - would be something that they would welcome. or at least that would be my opinion... ladies, Please weigh in.... this could be very good for the really great providers I know -
I couldn't have explained the problem more correctly or more diplomatically myself. Thank you! You're solution sounds like a good one. Here's my 2 cents on additional features I could see being helpful.
Might be nice to add an area where the provider can make a note about how many times she's seen this person or if it was a first meeting and also a note about if they were pre-screened or not. I've found that lately, it's made little difference. My last NC/NS was someone I've seen twice before. People with half-half patterns like this should be called too. This way providers can decide for themselves whether or not to take the risk in booking individuals like these. This would also speak to fairness as you mentioned some people do have things that come up and for whatever reason they don't or are afraid to call however they will book appointments and show up for them half of the time in the future. – Did that make sense?
Touching on the point of abusing the list, I think one very important rule for both the hobbyist and provider is that they're only allowed to submit a NC/NS under their main handle. NO ALIAS submissions in the NC/NS area.
For non TER member submissions, we may want to consider also use the beginning of email addresses while leaving out the main part of the address for example.... lovelaney@ or standupguy@. We know hobbyist's have a lot of email addresses but like a provider who changes her image or add name due to poor service, it does catch up and usually sooner than later.
Backing up to the point of challenging a NC/NS, it's always nice to be fair but I think the process of TER managing all the PM's and challenges about NC/NS's would be answered by my point above and that was to only allow submissions to be posted under main membership names and not an alias. Combine that with an email addy and phone number prefix and people can usually narrow down who their dealing with.
You're right, the system won't be foolproof. Nothing really is, particularly in it's beginning stages. This would be an improvement to TER and would help provide a better "one stop shopping" experience for it's members.
Thanks for posting! I think the god's are listening!!!
Let us hope something is implemented. We can always build from there!
I'm all for it, and I even liked the hobbyist rating system, anything that helps providers and hobbyists make good decisions is a plus for TER.
This database holds information about clients. Names would have to be linked to TER handles and for those without handles, well, it will take only 2 seconds to realize that John from 404 area code is problematic. A hundred guys would/could lose out because of one guy named John in Atl. I understand the problem is there but I think (on both sides of the issue) that is part of the imperfection of life. The slippery slope you propose hasn't happened in the last 2000 years so I don't think we are about to be priced out in the next 30 years because of no shows. (Not trying to be a smart guy.)
my .02
67dc
I agree tracking anything with non-TER hobbyists will be difficult. The potential downside seems nil, however. If a provider sees John in area code 404 is a NC/NS, all she has to do is PM the provider who posted to get more details. Remember, these girls want to make money, so they are not looking for a reason to drop every John.
I don't see any downside to a list identifying people by their TER handles. You'll have to explain that one to me. If your concern is that LE could raid TER's database and figure out who all the hobbyists are, geez, I think you are at risk for that anyway just by being a TER member (and it's not much of a risk; they're in the Netherlands), and you are really, really at risk for that kind of thing just by going to see a provider in the first place (especially if you ever use an agency). So I'm not sure if I understand your concern.
As far as the slippery slope, I think it has happened -- which is why some providers won't tour, and why we sometimes have to cool our heels in the parking lot for 30 minutes, and why several people report being stood up. It's not that the oldest profession is going to cease to exist. It's whether we can improve upon it.
This would be a valuable addition to TER.
I don't see anything wrong with this if TER wants to go through the hassle. As I mentioned when this topic came up last on a different post, I don't think it would really be an asset to anyone. For example, if a provider has 90 reviews and 10 NS/NC posts, does that mean she is a NS/NC 10% of the time? Absolutely not. It could be 99% or 0.1%. Just as not seeing a new review of a provider for a month does not mean she has left the business. Or if a hobbyist does not post a review for a while, it does not mean that he has not seen any providers in that time. We would basically have a rant board where hobbyists and providers alike can vent about their wasted time and lost money. As most of the seasoned hobbyist repeatedly post, do your research and you will be happy. If you cannot afford to loose some time and money, you should not be playing. The reviews already provide sufficient information to make an informed decision and weigh the risks. I see a NS/NC board as something which would add no real value to TER. For providers, NS/NC is a risk you take. Just like in any business, the deal may not go through even though you worked hard at it. If NS/NC is a problem for your business, you should consider a different career. But, as I said at the beginning, if TER wants to do it, fine.
This is a nice idea in theory, but in practice would not work. No one wants to maintain a membership somewhere that they have “black marks” against their username. Losing members as soon as they got a black mark would defeat the purpose of your system. This is like having a black list. That is why we do not have a black list on TER.
I spent a long time trying to figure out fair way to reward members for being good hobbyist’s and share this information with both providers and other hobbyists. The method had to incorporate accountability yet still respecting the privacy of our membership.
What I came up with was “white list.” IF you believe that you are a good hobbyist please read about white list and encourage providers you have seen to vouch for you.
Here is the link
http://www.theeroticreview.com/info_policies/whiteListFAQ.asp
-- Staff
at a meet and greet. Once I said that I was white knighted, they said "oh, you must be a good boy" or something to that effect. Since I have thought about it, and must admit, I am somewhat flattered that a couple of ladies took the time to acknowledge that I am an ok dude, fair and honest in the hobby. So while I would love to see some way to know who not to trust, I am happy with a list that says I am someone who can be trusted.
Thanks for the answer.
... and I probably would feel the same way. Why institute a program that will piss off your membership and at the same time, would take hiring additional resources to deal with? However, I still submit to the argument that if TER is to fully serve the hobbyist community, that the NCNS issue has to be addressed in some fashion. The ladies already maintain DNS lists that are available. Some enterprising hobbyist will probably start up a site using NCNS as a catalyst that could, with the addition of reviews, be a competitor at some point. But I can see that in the current mode you're not going to worry about any meaningful competition. I'm sure GM never saw Toyota as anything more than a much-smaller one.
to see how the community feels about this. If the idea is supported by a clear majority of the community then why would the improvement suggestions of the membership not be addressed in some manner? On the other hand if the membership is clearly against the idea then scratch the idea.
With all due respect Staff; the "White List" may reward well behaved hobbyists; but it does nothing to protect either provider OR hobbyist from a problem that is ever pervasive (and costly) for BOTH factions.
'inxsnnj' has proposed a rather well thought out and equitable tool for both sides to make an informed decision from.
When this long repeated cry was brought up again on the National board this past weekend I presented TWO examples in support of its need that I found on the Newbie board in the same weekend. The problem and its need for addressing it is becoming as important now as the credibility and accountability that TER brought to the hobbying community in the first place.
Staff; TER is the standard by what every other hobby site big & small is compared.
Unanimously every provider I have spoken to who has maintained a long and favorable review history here has also favored a system where their sisters who lack common courtesy/professionalism are brought to light for it. I have also talked with hobbyists who have cut back dramatically on their hobbying for just the reason of being fed up with the time and money wasted on providers lacking the aforementioned “common courtesy / professionalism”. If you fear a loss in membership and participation for reasons of “black marks” on respective reputations you’re in fact losing already because a very important issue of accountability and its costs are being ignored.
The "white List" gives easy reference, and rewards for favorable demeanor on the part of the hobbyist. A properly safeguarded "Black list(s)" would do the same for provider and hobbyists alike. TER with its search engines and its fine tuning of the review system has proved a very successful experiment and tool for all concerned. Isn’t it worth further experimentation and fine tuning to make TER an even BETTER tool and success?
Maybe there is an answer to this that merits consideration. Based upon many complaints I've heard from fellow hobbyists, Maybe simply changing the policy slightly to reflect NC/NS.
Here is what I am getting at.
Today's policy permits scoring a ripoff. If that isn't a black list I don't know what is. One need only survey the ripoffs and see how long they keep their profile.
So what if the policy regarding reviews were relaxed a bit. By that I don't mean we lower the quality. Simply that under today's review standards, one may not submit a review unless one actually "sees" a provider. So what if we created a score "zero". Zero is reserved for ladies where a hobbyist made an appointment but the lady did not show.
Now yes, I realize there is too much room for abuse. But any serious hobbyist would always look at a poor review by looking at the reviewers reviews. If it were a one review-only reviewer and it was bad, I think most of us would dismiss the review. This goes for both good and bad reviews. However, if the reviewer had many reviews and let's say one or to zero scores indicating a NC/NS, that would carry weight.
In the end I see NC/NS as no different that the ripoff category.
A text review would be mandated describing the arrangements and logistics both overcome and financed so as to meet at the prescribed place, and how long the hobbyist waited; parked in his car, listening to a redundant out going message on his cell phone.
This is the first time I've seen a well-thought out treatise on how to address the NCNS issue from both sides. As inxsnn states, this is a problem that works like the domino effect. In an effort to combat it, both hobbyist & provider could take steps that can and I'm sure does result in them committing the same offense. Or if not completely NCNS'ing then canceling at the very last minute. Not doubling up to protect oneself means either a loss of income to the provider and a lost opportunity for the hobbyist who could have spent his money with someone else.
Let's face it, there isn't any fool-proof way of doing this. Like reviews themselves, there is going to be abuses. However, a couple of safeguards plus a little common sense can counteract that. First, it's important that the accused be given time to respond so that their rebuttal can be part of the NCNS review. Therefore the NCNS review will be a two-parter just like the current reviews. The first part will contain the NCNS details by the accusor and the second will contain the defense by the accused. There should be room for links to evidence, i.e., emails that document time, dates and commitments from both sides that there was a scheduled session. Obviously, they would have to be edited to remove anything that would identify real names, etc.
Like reviews themselves, the thinking hobbyist and provider will throw out the one-time NCNS review for those people that have a long demonstrated history of showing up for appointments. Just like I would schedule with a provider who has been recommended to me and has mostly great reviews despite a negative review(s), most of us wouldn't make a automatic decision based on a NCNS review(s) not to see someone. If a provider gets solid references they will most likely schedule despite it.
Finally, I see this as a cumalative effect. People will lose credibility only with numerous NCNS reviews not just a couple. Their rebuttals will not ring true especially if there is email evidence in many instances of intent. This would be a good vehicle for TER to keep business in-house. Therefore, I would keep NCNS reviews for only those providers & hobbyists who have reviews and/or handles on TER. People with enough NCNS reviews will probably drop off anyway.
As you state there will be instances of abuse. In fact there is 100% certainty that this will happen. However we all deal with the honesty/dishonesty divide in reviews and postings just as you have stated. We manage this downside for the most part and the good far outweighs the bad which is why TER remains a valuable asset in our community.
I'd like to see an attempt made to try this with an understanding that the process may have to be tweaked once it is up and active. This idea has been touted by many for a long time in one form or another. It is time to give it a try...
-- Modified on 2/1/2007 6:34:01 AM
Nc/ns is a fact of life...i have been on the recieving end more times than i can count...it just happens...i have never done it to a gent but i hear it is common...every board is a tool...used both for good and evil, and the potential for evil is too great...there are so many REAL problems in life, lets just chalk this problem up to the cost of doing business...afterall do you people honestly think that this problem is exclusive to the hobby..??do your homework, make your best effort and if it fails just move on...
It's easy for you to pen a breezy post about this. You have access to DNS lists that document hobbyists who, among other things, are habitual NCNS'ers. And I think that's a good thing. Hobbyists should have access to the same type of info.
Our boards are private and focus on safety...it apples and oranges...
and I see positive effects coming from it. Yes there is a chance of abuse but no more so than the current Review system has. It's beneficial to both hobbyist and provider (thus a win-win in my book).
And while I understand the concern of "lost membership" I would think that those that leave would only be the one's who consistently and repeatedly do the NCNS. If a lady (or a guy) knows that they will most likely get reported if they NCNS, then perhaps the knowledge that it will get reported will deter them from doing it as often as they do. It just might make it less common for guys to make 2 appointments at the same time and for ladies to double-book their time slots.
Right now there is nothing bad that can happen if you NCNS. The ladies know they won't get reviewed on it (you can't review something that didn't happen). The guys know that most of the ladies don't check out their past reliability (in terms of NCNS). So there is no real incentive for them to be considerate and professional in terms of scheduling appointments.
And while you could conceivably lose some membership due to them getting repeatedly bad marks, you would, I think, make more people come here/return here because the information they get is going to be more useful and reliable.
I've only be NCNSed 3 times in my hobbying career (knock on wood ... no pun intended). Once was rescheduled and I was treated to extra time. The second is going to be rectified when I return to her state. The third I could have avoided had this system been in place. Plus, with that third, maybe I could help prevent somebody else from driving 2.5 hours and getting stood up and then, upon inquiring as to what happened, being told to "get over it." How could helping somebody avoid that be a bad thing?
In terms of limiting the potential for abuse, there are safe-guards that can be put into place. Just as only paid members can PM each other, maybe only paid members can submit/view NCNS information. Maybe the gentlemen has to have X number of reviews before he can list a NCNS. Maybe the lady must have X number of reviews. When listing them, show both of those numbers. If a NCNS is rectified, allow the opportunity for the review to be edited/removed from the list. Obviously, as inxsnnj said, allow both parties a chance to rebut a listing. Those are just idea's but my point is that there are steps that can be enacted where the possibility of abuse is minimized.
And again, I think that if the information is available, more people would want to join because it will do something here that other places don't do ... provide some sort of reliability check. Otherwise, as one of the gentlemen above indicated, this could the case of an upstart board doing it and thus gaining an edge on TER.
As always, be safe and have fun
to find a thread nearly as long in this forum as this one has become in just 2 days.
This issue has been raised time and time again on the GD board. The arguments against it are starting to sound like General Motors and their statements that "an electric car does not fit or meet the needs of the majority of Americans"
(then GM vigorously went on in their development / promotion of the 6 + thousand pound, 8 cylinder, four wheel drive; Hummer2 while the oil companies lobbied (and won) against an alternative fuel/emission mandate for a percentage of California automobiles while they BOTH simultaneously influenced the Feds to offer a HUGE tax break for businesses purchasing vehicles weighing 6 thousand pounds or more).
I apologize if I digressed; but the agenda of maintaining the ‘status quo’ appears similar.
This topic WILL rise again. In the mean time I'm data basing the arguments; pro & con.
-- Modified on 2/3/2007 12:09:19 PM