2ski469, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the MILLIONS of "undocumented aliens" here and understand what we, not they, have wrought. In this specific case, she came to the US with her husband who hoped to develop business ventures. They failed, he bailed. She didn't ask to come here, but came with high hopes as a dutiful wife. Yes, she could have returned home, but she had already built a life here and her outstanding kids were well assimilated. The youngest spoke English better than his native language, and the others spoke unaccented English and had worked hard to be outstanding. If they had gone back, where the educational system was more traditional, much greater emphasis on classical learning, etc. they would have been at a disadvantage in their own native countries. Is it possible to be surprised that she chose to stay here, after consulting with her children? No, 2 ski, your statement that there are no ifs, no buts, no maybes, is totally wrong -- for people in that situation, ifs, buts, and maybes are what life is about, and for us natives as well. There are no categoricals. As this country now contemplates how we have again fumbled a serious and complex issue, the 11-15 MILLION undocumented aliens here and what status they should have, plus the related issues of people who voluntarily enter providing for various complex, never simple, reasons, trafficking, forced labor, etc ask yourself what would you have done in their shoes?
I guarantee that if you had personal knowledge of the people in this little story, or many of the millions like them, you would say, "let's figure out a fair way to let them stay, give them some of the opportunities our ancestors had, see what they can do for themselves and for this country, and stop pontificating."
I've been thinking a lot about what 'Love Goddess' recently wrote on this Board, even since she posted it:
"From a personal viewpoint, I am always interested in how providers with children manage to construct their lives. At some point, those children grow up to be inquisitive teenagers. In addition, the burden of having an illegal profession while caring for minors - one's own - must exact some tremendous pressure....Having children and providing must add an additional emotional hardship."
What's brought up this issue to immediate relevance to me is this: A Provider who's become a friend has a daughter turning 16. She's understandably worried that one of her daughter's male scjpp; friends might recognize her picture on her website, and tell her. Teenage boys do scrutinize such sites, if only to indulge their fantasies.
As a short-term 'solution', she's having her agency obscure her face. But, understandably,
she's still very concerned about this issue of being discovered by her beloved daughter.
I'm sure many other Providers with children or teenagers have had to deal with this very issue. So it may be appropriate to start a new thread about it. I'm sure hearing from some others would really help my Provider friend a lot. (I'm referring her to this Board, which I don't think she's checked before.)
To start off the discussion, here are my own thoughts. Many Providers may feel what I'm about to suggest is not at all applicable to them. After all, I'm a male customer, not a Provider - how can I ever "be in your shoes" and help you. Nonetheless, here goes.
May I start with specifying some basic premises or core beliefs, which inevitably affect anyone's practical decisions on such matters.
(1) Men and women are products of evolution. Our sexier ancestors had more children, passing on our genetic predisposition to really, really enjoy sex.
(2) At the same time, human cultures everywhere came to recognize that raising a human baby takes a long time, and a lot of resources (food and shelter). A woman who can obtain loyalty from a male partner has a much better chance of having her offspring survive. So culture passed on another predisposition, towards a close male/female partnership (at least until the baby is old enough to do, as a child, some fending for him/herself).
(3) To enforce #2 above, cultures have developed a sociological stigma against promiscuity (which, of course, conflicts with #1). So human being are, almost everywhere, conflicted on sex drive versus culture.
Have an interruption...will continue this line of thought later today. The above is just an introduction to where I[m going, towards a possible practical solution for Providers.
and all have told their children, to a greater or lesser degree, that they entertain men for money. In all cases they have very strong relationships and are very close and loving.
Kids can sometimes really amaze you with their ability to be understanding and sympathetic.
The same question can be asked about hobbyist, especially in cases like mine where hobbying became a cause (one cause anyway) of a divorce. I have explained it to my kids as well as I needed to and still have a very strong relationship with them.
The bottom line is: Honesty pays with kids.
Discussing this sort of topic is difficult enough with a person's peers. I can only imagine what it'd be like with a child of any age.
The only thing I can suggest is to get a feel for where the kid(s) stand(s) on the topic before broaching it. Try to have the age-old birds-and-bees conversation as the "ice breaker," so to speak. After things have cooled down with that topic, whether it be a week or a month or even longer, maybe share some movies or television shows about escorts, then gage their reactions and comments. It might give her an idea on how to approach her kids with the news, if she wants to at all.
Sorry for interruption. I'm writing from an office where I can't save anything confidential (even temporarily) on this computer, to which other people have access.
Mr. Fisher's interim comment has already gone just where I was intending to. As always, I appreciate his experienced and wise comments.
Anyway: so what could a Provider tell her teenager(s)? Maybe the following, in stages and in succeeding discussions, no faster than the teenager's reactions seem to allow:
1. You're now in an age of your life where you're discovering new intense physical feelings, which will, at times, feel overpowering or disturbing. You're no longer a child, and you're starting to feel the drives for procreation human beings are all born with. These are difficult to control - but you will learn how to do that.
2. Your sexual urges can be satisfied (a) by yourself (masturbation), (b) with someone else, casually, without necessarily any friendly or loving relationship, and/or (c) with someone else for whom you feel beginning friendship, deeper friendship, or love. Despite what anyone else will tell you, *all* of these possibilities are the way it is.
3. I've had all three types of relationships, so if you want to talk about them, we can.
4. Casual sexual relationships have always included ones where men pay women (with food, shelter or money). That's why prostitution is called "the oldest profession".
5. Society often frowns on prostitution, because of fears it will interfere with the couple-loyalty needed for best raising a baby through childhood. So it's stigmatized. But, nonetheless, it happens, and it always will. And its effects can be beneficial and not always harmful.
6. Then, eventually, she can get to the hardest stage to reveal: I've needed money to raise you, and yes, I've let men pay me. And, because this is stigmatized, you need to keep it secret from most (but not all) people.
Obviously, the teenager may well need to talk to some trusted other person(s) (other than the mother) about this revelation. Maybe an understanding priest, minister, rabbi, or school counselor. Because the teenager will have, initially, conflicted feelings about his/her mother, which cannot and probably should not be discussed directly or just with the mother.
Because of the way our society exerts its pressures (NOT because of anything inherently morally wrong), revealing this is not going to be easy. But, as Mr. Fisher says, your teenager is a lot smarter and stronger than you may think.
Parents always want to "protect" their children. So presenting a potential problem like this to them is difficult.
But, in fact, protecting children is not always wise. Confronting necessary problems is the only way children learn and develop character.
My point is: if you believe, as I do, that this is a noble profession, and Providers have notning to be ashamed of, but instead have special insight into the nature of human beings that they can be proud of: that feeling needs to be shared, at some point, with one's own child/children. (This includes men, if possible, sharing their feelings, in some appropriate way, with their grown children, too.)
Put another way: teenagers will (despite their protests) really put up with almost anything from their parent...as long as the parent is *honest* with them about it. So, it's really OK if your child is shocked and appalled. That's far better than feeling deceived.
Does my theory here make any sense? Is this what my Provider friend should consider doing? Or is what I'm suggesting unrealistic?
I will be very interested in hearing (from LG and from all of you) and I think my friend will be, too. Those of you who disagree with me - I'll especially welcome your comments.
I hope this thread, as it develops, will prove helpful to many Providers, on what, as LG says, may be the key issue for them.
Dear bostongreg and mrfisher,
From a clinician's viewpoint, I think it's not really optimal to issue a blanket response in this matter. But what I can do, is identify some areas of importance that will weigh either for or against such a disclosure, not necessarily in order:
1. The physical age and sex of the child;
2. The emotional maturity of the child;
3. The psychological/emotional relationship between the parent(s) and the child;
4. The particular culture, tradition and moral values espoused by the family unit;
5. The socioeconomic status of the family unit;
6. The relationship with the extended family (often circumscribed by culture and tradition);
7. The capacity for the family unit to absorb stressors (often subsumed under the socioeconomic status of the family unit);
8. The emotional and physical health of the parent(s) who will communicate the disclosure;
9. The outside support network of the family unit.
Since the profession is so stigmatized and also illegal, the consequences for potentially throwing a family into crisis by disclosing can be severe. This is not just revealing a "family secret;" the issue involves a legally precarious livelihood, potential relinquishment of parenthood and many other dangers to a family unit.
There is a reason for why parents generally do not reveal having committed acts considered illegal or potentially dangerous. When parents disclose acts that are considered illegal, stigmatized and generally "immoral," children often end up in a "double bind." On one hand, children have been "taught" by their own families, schools and society at large that certain things are "wrong." On the other hand, most children feel a natural allegiance to their parents. The disclosure of what are considered immoral or illegal acts do put a burden on the children, as they are sometimes not able to share the disclosure with others. A similar scenario would be the burden of silence in a child of alcoholics - and yet, we know that alcoholism is a disease and should not carry a moral stigma whatsoever. But it does, just the same. The proliferation of ACA [Adult Children of Alcoholics] groups can attest to that.
The point is that although we here at TER consider ourselves morally evolved, society at large has a completely different spin on what prostitution is supposed to mean. To raise an emotionally healthy child in this society can mean many things to many people. That's why there is no absolute way of treating the issue when disclosing to children is concerned. And that's why my empathy is with the mothers who have to make the decision and then live with it - either way.
Ladies please,
the Love Goddess
I certainly can't disagree with anything you stated but at the same time I'm not sure that one-size fits all. I'm not suggesting that you are indicating that this is a script for all to follow but for me the big missing is the parent's knowledge of their child and his/her mental and emotional maturity level for engaging in such a conversation.
While no parent in their right mind would ever honestly profess to know exactly how their children click at all times, an involved and loving parent will certainly have a good instinct about what type of conversation works best in certain life station conversations. For some the evolutionary/relationship tact that you describe may be perfect. For others perhaps they would choose bits and pieces of your ideas. Others may wing it, choose other words, lie and/or deny. At the end the emotional and intellectual assessment of the parent about their child will be coupled with the emotional and intellectual state of mind of the parent and that will likely dictate the parent's course of action.
Needless to say this surely ranks up there in terms of the 'difficult conversations to have with your children' topic.
Thank you, LG & JW, very much, for helping me clarify my own thoughts on this matter. I'm sure some providers will find what you said very helpful. Yours are not easy answers, but they are true ones.
Another fascinating and complex thread. I'm sure we all have stories. Mine concerns a very popular but limited service provider who started because her husband abandoned the family and left her as the sole support of three lovely teenagers, all honor students and gifted musicians. She once said, "this is illegal but not immoral." But she wouldn't think of telling her kids, even the oldest who was her helper and confidante in almost every way, "because I am the mother, father, role model, caregiver, cheerleader, best friend, sole support, disciplinarian...If they knew what I do they would be devastated." Nevertheless, living a double life was tearing her up and she quit, and because she didn't have a green card and had overstayed her visa, last I heard she was making about $12 an hour in a deli, whereas before she was grossing about $1200 a day. In her home country she had been a school teacher. I'm sure there are many people out there in similar positions. She in fact was a wonderful person, a courageous and devoted mother, a warm and wise friend, fun and very attractive. It was painful to think that she was in a truly awful situation not of her making, but I don't question her decision to accept real hardship rather than shatter her kids' trust in her.
Let me respectfully point out that "...she didn't have a green card and had overstayed her visa..."
is a direct contradiction to "...a truly awful situation not of her making..."
As an adult, she is responsible for having suitable documentation - no ifs, no buts, no maybes.
Otherwise, I do agree with your view that this is a truly sad story of a courageous woman.
2ski469, you need to put yourself in the shoes of the MILLIONS of "undocumented aliens" here and understand what we, not they, have wrought. In this specific case, she came to the US with her husband who hoped to develop business ventures. They failed, he bailed. She didn't ask to come here, but came with high hopes as a dutiful wife. Yes, she could have returned home, but she had already built a life here and her outstanding kids were well assimilated. The youngest spoke English better than his native language, and the others spoke unaccented English and had worked hard to be outstanding. If they had gone back, where the educational system was more traditional, much greater emphasis on classical learning, etc. they would have been at a disadvantage in their own native countries. Is it possible to be surprised that she chose to stay here, after consulting with her children? No, 2 ski, your statement that there are no ifs, no buts, no maybes, is totally wrong -- for people in that situation, ifs, buts, and maybes are what life is about, and for us natives as well. There are no categoricals. As this country now contemplates how we have again fumbled a serious and complex issue, the 11-15 MILLION undocumented aliens here and what status they should have, plus the related issues of people who voluntarily enter providing for various complex, never simple, reasons, trafficking, forced labor, etc ask yourself what would you have done in their shoes?
I guarantee that if you had personal knowledge of the people in this little story, or many of the millions like them, you would say, "let's figure out a fair way to let them stay, give them some of the opportunities our ancestors had, see what they can do for themselves and for this country, and stop pontificating."
Please read my post again. I pointed out that you made two contradictory statements.
At no time did I question the courage of the lady - quite to the contrary, and the lady and her children are probably assets to our society. That does not absolve from the fact that we all have choices and have to live with the consequences thereof, not blaming others (which seems to be the current American posture, private and public). Sad but true.
only right and wrong reasons.
This woman's reasons are very valid and worthy of support. The shame of it is the illegality that distorts the ability of people to choose that which they are best at and which is best for them.
Where war mongers can profit and revel in the carnage they create and the love makers are reviled and imprisoned.
I was dressing after a fantastic date with a wonderful young lady. We had a great time and truly enjoyed each other's company. She said to me, 'With all the hate that is in the world today, it blows me away that some people would view what you and I just enjoyed as being an illegal act.'
Perhaps someday the perception will change but I don't think it will be anytime soon...
just as governments, teachers, corporations and everyday people do when they attempt to change peoples thinking or sell their perspective.
THE PLAN: target win-over goal 9 to 18 months. Gradually introduce to the daughter these selected materials: 1. books relative to "women in the life" coming from a compassionate angle; 2. films/videos also portraying the providers in a compassionate understanding light. 3. follow-up chats and conversations with the teen daughter about her reactions after she's read/seen each of the books, articles, videos or films. After a few encounters the teen should be coming to an evaluation of what's been introduced and the Mother should be able to sense how this is going. It might take a year before the Mother can feel comfortable with sharing with her daughter that she "has, at times, allowed members of the opposite sex "befriend her"". After that the conversations may lead into more depth or the teen may have heard and understood as much as she wants at that particular time.
In no way is this something you drop on the kitchen table tomorrow night a dinner -- it'll take TIME and all children are different -- but it will go better with a plan over time than avoiding the whole issue and having a bomb drop someday. By the way -- teens today are pretty cogniscent of their surroundings -- the daughter may already know way more about Ma than Ma would ever think. Remember, unless Mother really screwed the teen up, the teen LOVES her and wants a reason to KEEP loving her Mother. It just takes a PLAN some Time and a little one on one CONVERSATION! Start today, please, but sloooowly and obtaining agreement at each step of the way!!!
Thank you all for your posts,
Not a single reviewed provider has yet contributed. This may be an indication of how thorny and fraught with difficulty this issue really is.
the Love Goddess
Thanks very much to all for your thoughtful comments. I agree with LG - it's too bad that no Provider answered, as I had hoped, to help my friend. As she says, that demonstrates what an extremely difficult subject this must be for Providers.
I feel an intense sadness that Providers are facing such loneliness in their struggle. If, as I believe, Providers are doing nothing wrong and are, in fact, far better women than most others - and if teenagers today are more enlightened than in previous generations, as I also believe - then, logically, Providers should be able, (somehow, sensitively and with appropriate timing) to tell their teenager.
The fact that they apparently don't - can't even talk about that on a safe Discussion Board - shows us how strong the sociological factors are which are keeping this essential human hobby stigmatized. And, yes, it's very hard to fight most of society.
Nonetheless, courage is a virtue. Some day, more Providers will try. My unasked-for support goes to all of those who are silently struggling with this issue.
Chasboy's suggestion of consulting (and maybe having around) books that present Providing in a positive light strikes me as an excellent one. LG (and anyone else) if you're still checking this thread, do you know of any such books? I think all of us (Providers and clients, too) be helped by seeing some outside printed support for what we do, for our unusual essence.
Dear bostongreg,
If you do a search on Amazon for "escorts, call girls" or even "prostitution," you'll get some interesting returns. The book "You'll Never Make Love in This Town Again" seems to be popular; Nancy Kwan, pseudonym, also wrote a book. There is also a men's guide to Internet escorts, etc., which may be of interest.
I believe that the profession is fundamentally stigmatized, and that no matter how many books or magazine articles come out, it won't be easy to find a provider, or even an ex-provider, who advocates her calling as an enduring career to the general populace. Yes, TER is very advanced in many ways, but again, society is not ready to accept something which, perceptionwise, runs counter to the cohesion of a family and its morally didactic values. Of course, we at TER know that this in itself contains some irony, in that many families are saved from divorce and dissolution because hubby is hobbying - oftentimes as a last resort - and therefore staying put in his otherwise sexless marriage.
It would be very interesting - and I may do this as a project - to investigate attitudes toward escorts in Germany, a country where prostitution is legal and providers are taxed but also receive public benefits. Then again, with sexology so poorly funded in universities, finding a reliable body of journal articles on the topic may be difficult. As social scientists, we are most often seeing qualitative writing on the topic, which can't really be crunched through statistical programs to see reliable trends. Yes, there are journal articles on HIV, streetwalkers, condom use, etc. But self-reported attitudes by reg'lar, middle-class individuals who work as providers are hard to come by in quantitative measures.
We're still in the catacombs, I guess,
the Love Goddess
Thanks, as always, LG. Some of the books look interesting.
Before I order any, however, I want to warn others: Amazon.com displays what bookcovers you last browsed, the next time you (or anyone)logs onto amazon.com from that computer. So, if your wife or others in your office use the same computer you do, be 100% sure to do this:
Assuming you're using Internet Explorer, click on Tools, then on Internet Options, then on Delete Cookies, then on OK. That will prevent the next user from logging in to your amazon.com screen.
It's also a good idea, while you're in the Internet Options menu, to click on Delete (Temporary Internet) files, and also on Clear History. That prevents someone with a little computer savy, as well, from digging in to what you're been looking at.
Too bad this is all necessary; but it is.
I have some strong opinions on this topic so I have to share.....lol "The truth isn't always the best policy" They don't need a friend as much as they need a mother. And the thought of divulging one's profession isn't really the harm; but you are also saying that it's ok to "break the law" and that message speaks volumes. Truthfully, you raise your kids to be the best they can be; and it's my opinion that they could never experience any part of the "adult world" and there life would do just fine. I might have underestimated them, but I get one shot at raising them, and there identity is a direct reflection on how they see me. My $.02