I agree with moorepassion. or at least i want to agree.
i have a similar situation and have contemplated asking my provider out for dinner, but i know better and don't want to think too much into the arrangement. although we've had an off-the-clock coffee date and spoken on the phone several times, it's still not enough to think i'm REALLY special. and she's told me a ton of personal info which many friends wouldn't even tell me. i got confused and was honest with her about it. i have personal circumstances which stop me from really going after her and she knows this which is why i'd like agree with moorepassion even more, but this IS a business and i'm trying very hard not to forget that.
I posted this on the general board, but its a great reminder to the Newbies in the hobby:
I am so amused by the discussions of men willing providing gifts and large tips to the ladies in the hopes of better service and the ladies claiming they provide the ultimate "girlfriend experience".
Let me enlighten all the men about reality. About 10 years ago when I first entered this wonderful hobby, I found one lady whose company I enjoyed and began seeing her exclusively (on my part, she was seeing whomever she felt like). During the first several months, I prob. saw her about 15-20 times (at $200 per hour). Each session was an hour. We would laugh, have great conversation before engaging in awesome sex. It felt like a girlfriend; we got along fabulously well. One day, I decided to see if she was free the next day for lunch, my treat of course, before heading up to her place for our usual one hour session. When I broached the subject on the phone, her first words out of her mouth were not, "Oh, what a sweet gesture" or "no thanks, honey, I have plenty of food in the house, but I appreciate the thought", it was (and I kid you not). "Your going to have to pay a heck of a lot more than $200 for me to join you for lunch". I was speechless. I managed to finally say okay, let me check my schedule and I'll call you back. Which I never did. It was at that moment when I realized what this hobby was all about. In spite of spending several thousand dollars on her, in spite of her professing on multiple occassions to love my company immensely, she wouldnt dare join me(prob. for a 15-20 minute lunch) unless I shelled out more money.
This experience has greatly served me well over the years. I have realized that this hobby is all business, there are no emotions or feelings. That is why I never tip, bring gifts, because what is the point?? Gentleman, you are a dollar sign to these ladies, there is no girlfriend experience to be had. You are not and never will be their girlfriend, no matter what level of service the ladies provide to you.
I am not saying I do not enjoy the ladies companies (I wouldnt have remained active for 10 years), because the majority of the women I have met are very engaging and great to be with. All I'm saying is that men should not get into the trap of actually thinking you mean something more to these women than you really do. Because at the end of the day, it's all about your money.
Always remember you are buying an hour or two, not a relationship.
However, I think you are a bit harsh. I have two ATFs. One suffered a significant personal loss a couple of years ago, and I think, I know I tried to help her, emotionally more than financially. The other has told me how the death of a regular has impacted her, and I don't mean financially.
You are right, the hobbyist/provider relationship is not boyfriend/girlfriend. However that doesn't mean that it is not personal, and isn't always based on cash. I have met a number of true friends in the hobby., It is not always about the $$$.
jazz32
-- Modified on 8/14/2007 2:31:12 PM
I posted the following on the General Discussion board yesterday. Same lession, I believe:
No harm, no foul -- lesson learned
Posted by Bosdave , 8/13/2007 3:41:35 PM [Bosdave has 3 reviews]
I don't want this to sound as though I'm whining, so let me begin by saying that I've learned a lesson that's been stated many times on these boards: The providers are first and foremost conducting a business.
I've visited the same FBSM provider 4 or 5 times over the past 5 months, and though I've also used others, I always returned to what I'd say was my favorite. I recently saw that she started a theraputic-only massage service. Her fee for an hour was approximately half what she charged for FBSM; that didn't bother me because her FBSM rate was in line with other providers in the area.
When I recently tried to schedule a FBSM session, however, she mentioned that her rate had increased. This increase put her services in the upper range for similar providers. There was no mention of grandfathering me in at the old rate; there was no mention offering me the old rate for a limited time, then moving me to the new rate; there was no mention of charging a higher rate because she was changing career direction with her theraputic-only venture. Her only explanation was that she was now renting space by the hour, and that she had to cover the additional cost.
I was at first upset by her explanation, because I reasoned that if she could charge half the FBSM fee for a theraputic-only massage, she certainly would still make a profit by charging me the old rate. I felt that she didn't value my repeat business.
My conclusions after I calmed down?
a. She DIDN'T value my repeat business, BUT
b. She's in business to maximize her income, not to do me any favors, and
c. She doesn't owe me anything.
I'm still a little disappointed, but I'm also following advice I regularly see on these boards -- If you don't like or can't accept what the provider offers, it's time to move on.
Hardy, you're partially right. The hobby *is* first and foremost, a business. Women are in it for the money; men are in it for "time and companionship". However, your description makes giving a donation seem like purchasing something from a vending machine. For the most part, a provider won't spend time with a client unless he gives the right amount for the time. And while she may be pleased by the extra gift or tip, she's still unlikely to bend the rules or provide a lot of unpaid time.
However, there's something I call the "human factor". After all, the providers and the hobbyists are human beings, with hopes, dreams, and feelings. And being human, some people just get along better than others. Maybe their personalities mesh really well, maybe they're going through similar life stages, or maybe there's just chemistry present. If this happens in the hobby, oh well, we're all human. Many providers know how to make a hobbyist feel like a friend, but the intention is to make him feel more comfortable with her. With all that said, it's *very important* to control your emotions, and not lose perspective this is a business.
... not because they don't like them, but because they're afraid of leading them on.
Some hobbyists will take the smallest indication of interest and blow it up into a love affair. Some of us are needy and desparate. Some of us are crazy. Some of us are potential stalkers. Some of us are dangerous. Most providers just don't want to take the chance.
That being said, some provides allow off-the-clock meetings as part of or even separate from paid sessions. Some have done freebies. Some have even dated former clients. It's very rare, but it happens. I've heard of a couple of them ending with pretty ugly results. For their own peace of mind and safety, most providers are very wary of letting things get too personal.
That doesn't mean they don't enjoy their work. It is a business, but everyone wants to enjoy what they do. Everyone wants to work with good people. Everyone wants to be appreicated for good work. If you want to express your appreciation with a tip or small gift, do it, just avoid thinking it means more than it does.
I agree with Hardy that "at the end of the day, it's all about the money." Providers are trying to make a living. Good providers don't just make you feel good, but feel good about yourself. It's their job to make you feel special. It's hard to tell when it's real and when it's fantasy. Just remember, it's almost always fantasy. Enjoy the delusion.
Some of you guys are really beautiful, intelligent, handsome, incredible, creative, affectionate, sexy, well rounded, lovely men. And it's hard enough meeting with you on my turf, touching you, kissing you, smiling into your eyes, opening your heart, turning on your passion, making love to you... and really enjoying you, then watching you go away.
You pay me not to follow you. You pay me to not get emotionally attached.
Hardy, I don't think your provider was being cruel or harsh. I think she was revealing to you how hard it would be to make love to you, enjoy your company, even have a regular date with you, and then watch you walk away back into your realm..
It really is easier to just turn off any emotional feeling as soon as your handed that white envelope. It's easier to make it about the money than it is to pretend that it could lead to something more.
It would be easy for me to have a lunch with some of the guys I see that I don't feel a connection with. No problem. Get a good meal, maybe some good conversation, then go back home without even giving it a second thought. But the men that I find myself connecting with, attracted to, and really wanting to be with more; it is those situations where I have to keep reminding myself.. "It's all about the money. Don't let your emotions get tangled up in this job."
It's self protection I suppose. It's also professional. The last thing my clients need is drama from their hobby seeping into their real lives. I am a "hobby" to them. And I have to keep reminding myself of that.
Well stated, although based on the providers response to my lunch query she had alreaady separated any emotional feelings from the business aspect. My mere point in posting my message is that its amazing to see all the gentleman who waste money by tipping and buying extravagant gifts for providers for no tangible benefit. It's all about business and that's the way it should always be.
You wrote: '...waste money by tipping and buying extravagant gifts for providers for no tangible benefit.'
Some people tip and give gifts to others (providers and/or other service providing folks)not with the intention of receiving a benefit in return but merely as a gesture of kindness or as a measure of thanks.
Your point about hobbying being a buisness, that providers are not real girlfriends, etc. are very valid but don't paint such a broad (and cynical)stroke as to why hobbyists should not tip or give gifts. Not everyone does these things with ulterior motives in mind.
Who are you to define what my hobbying experience should be? If I approached my hobbying as you tell me I should, I would have missed out on one of the more important experiences of my adult life.
Folks, here's my advice (like anyone asked for it). Don't let someone else's 'shoulds' prevent you from enjoying your own experiences to the fullest. No one here is Hardy5456 except Hardy5456. Live your own life, not his or mine or anyone else's.
Not all men who tip or buy gifts do so because they expect something in return.
Your warning to men was a very good one. But please don't taint it by painting every escort with the same brush as the one you had the misfortune of liking.
We are not all like that woman and not all men buy gifts thinking they are or will be in a relationship with the escort. Most men are very responsible hobbyists without being bitter or mean about it. They bestow gifts because they want to, not because they expect more.
I agree with moorepassion. or at least i want to agree.
i have a similar situation and have contemplated asking my provider out for dinner, but i know better and don't want to think too much into the arrangement. although we've had an off-the-clock coffee date and spoken on the phone several times, it's still not enough to think i'm REALLY special. and she's told me a ton of personal info which many friends wouldn't even tell me. i got confused and was honest with her about it. i have personal circumstances which stop me from really going after her and she knows this which is why i'd like agree with moorepassion even more, but this IS a business and i'm trying very hard not to forget that.
Thank you Moorepassion for explaining our side of things!
I'd never respond so coldly the way Hardy's provider did, but that doesn't mean I might decline such an offer.
Boaundaries are important in the hobby. When boundaries are crossed, problems start.
But on the other hand just as Vstar stated, we're human. Feelings become involved. No matter how many times I have fallen in love (if only momentarily) with a client, I am always a professional.
For the right person I would be inclined to take things outside of the hobby. But just as with Vstar's provider I would never consider an emotional relationship with an unavailable man.
Hardy's situation was unfortunate, but each escort (and hobbyist) is wise to maintain boundaries-- at least sometimes.
