.........who then went out and made a total ass of himself in front of the U.N. I repeat the NEXUS of the problem in Iraq and subsequently the Middle East begins and ends at Bush's door-step. General Collin Powell has said repeatably his one regret in office was presenting false and misleading statements about Iraq's WMD program to members of the United Nations.
-- Modified on 6/30/2016 12:24:54 PM
...fleeing Fallujah like rats deserting a sinking ship.
It was "punk ass Obama" who let them waltz right over from Syria, did dick about it when they were out in the open and vulnerable to an air attack and didn't leave a residual force to protect a VERY vulnerable new Iraq when he cut and ran away like a little scared wuss.
Are we going to get ANY logic out of you tonite or is that too exhausting?
...who let 241 soldiers get killed in Lebanon and did nothing except pull out like a little bitch? Too bad his dad didn't pull out in time.
Or the other great Republican president - Eisenhower - overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran to protect U.S. Big Oil. That started the whole powder keg under which Dubya lit the match that blew it up into the shitstorm it is today.
Was hoping you were going to address my points as your GF couldn't either, but I will take your deflection as another white flag. LOL
Sheez...you two "cut and ran" from defending Bams awfully quick. LOL
Yes, irony duly noted. ;
.......the two numbskulls who started this clusterfucked conflagration in the Middle East in the first place.
Are we going to get ANY logic out of you tonite or is that too exhausting?
Crazy Joe gave Bush CREDIT for Iraq AFTER Bush left office and said it would be an Obama success story.
Sorry Salty. Bush handed Obama a fairly stable Iraq at the time and Biden/Bams knew it.
And I see you chose not to refute any of my points about Obama's fuck ups.
Thats ok. Neither could BP or Laffy.
Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq by brutally repressing the fanatical Muslims of both sects, Shia and Sunni. He established a secular state which did not tolerate religious extremism because both sects challenged his control. Neither sect accepted the idea of power sharing with the other or power sharing with a secular leader. As long as Saddam Hussein was in charge, his regime was a strong opponent to any religious movement. That is why al-Qaida was never his ally and why ISIS would never have been his ally.
Saddam Hussein would have executed ISIS founder Haji Bakr. As we now know, Haji Bakr had a central role in the establishment and success of ISIS. Incidentally, the US pulled out of Iraq on Bush's timeline when Iraq's leadership would not give the US a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) which protected our troops.
Want to know why the Iraqi leadership would not give the USA a SOFA? Because the new democratic Iraqi leadership was primarily (majority) Shiite. Guess what other country is primarily Shiite? Iran. So the Iraqi leadership made a deal with Iran to circumvent the embargo on Iran. In return, the Iranians stepped up to help the Iraqi leadership against ISIS.
This is very simple. Obama allowed ISIS to form and strengthen from his inactions and leaving no residual force.
You will not address these points so again I ask why?
Biden said Iraq was stable and a success and things deteriorated under Obama clearly. Obama never took ISIS seriously as we all know he stupid "JV" comment.
Care to try again?
......of Iraq? It's like a crazy ass dude stirring up a hornets nest and then blaming the neighbors for creating the hornet swarm in the first place. How absurd is that
But the Dems gave Bush the authorization he needed for that war and they were fully behind it.
Now, will you join me in saying that Obama not leaving behind a residual force and not bombing the shit out of ISIS as they moved from Syria into Iraq was catastrophic?
......if clueless Bush had not invaded Iraq. The U.S. has done its best, with over $1Trillion spent, 4,000 dead U.S. Troops plus 40,000 injured. It's time for the U.S. to completely exit the Middle East and leave the Sunni's and Shia's militant groups to extract their pound of flesh from each other as they've done for centuries. There are offshore oil fields off the coast of Africa that can be exploited for far less drama than in the Middle East, IMHO.
-- Modified on 6/30/2016 9:55:32 AM
.........who then went out and made a total ass of himself in front of the U.N. I repeat the NEXUS of the problem in Iraq and subsequently the Middle East begins and ends at Bush's door-step. General Collin Powell has said repeatably his one regret in office was presenting false and misleading statements about Iraq's WMD program to members of the United Nations.
-- Modified on 6/30/2016 12:24:54 PM
A number of Dems in the Senate asked the vote there be delayed so more of them could pile on the victory train. So you're saying the R's snookered them THAT badly? How fucking stupid were they? And Mrs Clinton, the smartest person in any room voted how?
A few more points. As I think salty mentioned, the key to our not leaving a residual force was the refusal of the Iraqis to agree to a SOFA. Without it, our troops would have been subjected to Iraqi justice if an incident occurred. That was clearly unacceptable. We got such an agreement later from the Afghans.
Also, when you say ISIS "moved from Syria into Iraq" you fail to point out that the core of ISIS is Iraqis, including their leader. His name is al-Baghdadi, get it? Most are former Iraqi army officers. The core of what became ISIS was created IN IRAQ by al-Zarqawi.
All this sprang from Bush's disastrous approach to the post-war situation. He'd been warned by Shinseki, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs, that the 200,000 men who conquered Iraq were not enough to secure the country. That went counter to what Bush/Cheney wanted to hear so they fired Shinseki. Then Paul Bremer doubled down on dumb and disbanded the Iraqi army, vaporizing the one force that could have held the country together. On top of that he started the de-Baathificatin program. Together, that forced an entire cadre of Sunni officers into unemployment and bitterness. They became the core of the insurgency that today lives on as ISIS.
Watch the documentary I linked to. The truth will set you free.
The Maliki "government" was controlled by Iran, which wanted us out. They refused all reasonable terms to leave a residual force. To make matters worse, when we left, the Iraqi army could stand on its own. But Maliki put cronies into most leadership positions who had no military experience and were corrupt. Over the next couple of years the Iraqi army became a shell.
Meanwhile ISIS was growing, as a result of a cadre of former Iraqi Sunni officers who were made unemployed by Bush's clown Bremer.
It's all laid out by Fareed Kakaria's superb documentary (link below).
Fast forward to today. While there's certainly blame enough for Obama, the fact is ISIS is being pushed back. They just lost Falujda, along with their earlier losses and they are being squeezed in Libya. The airport bombing is one of the few things they can carry off. It will still take a while but ISIS peaked about a year ago and is now in decline.
Obama had the Iraqi economy and their entire security in his palm. In other words, you don't get any more leverage over a country than that.
All he needed to do was say no money and no protection for you Iraq.
"Now, can we please keep a residual force in place to protect you since we don't know how your army will respond?"
Yes, Obama might even have had to say "pretty please" and the Iraqis would have caved.
He never played that card Jake as he was hell bent on cutting and running. Obama didn't want to stay. Be honest about that.
And what does decline even mean? They have reconstituted themselves on numerous occasions. Don't tell me about "decline."
Wake me when they have been "defeated."
But you are honest about giving Obama blame, something very few if any of the other Kool Aide drinking Obama sycophants are willing to do here so props for that.
And predictably wrong on almost all counts. I'll give you one thing, Obama DID want to get out of Iraq. But NOT without leaving about 10,000 troops there. The Iraqis and Iranians made that impossible.
He was able to accomplish that in Afghanistan, so why would it not have been his objective in Iraq? Makes no sense at all.
As for what "decline" means for ISIS, you'd have to have your head buried in sand not to see it. They're lost Khobani, lost the Basji oil field, lost Falujda and are clearly on the defensive.
As for blaming Obama, I blame him for his stupid "red line" statement on Syria; I blame him for calling ISIS "the JV" and I blame him for not being tougher with Putin over Ukraine.
Yet I've never seen you or any of the other righties give him credit for anything. Only blame and ridicule. Which gives your positions zero credibility.
.......since leaving office? The Hawkish trio fear being arrested for committing war crimes. The only trip Bush II has taken was a short trip to South Africa to attend Nelson Mandela's funeral, Bush flew aboard Air-force One as a guest of Obama.
I did not see George W. Bush and his team in this picture.
Also Joe Biden was right.
It would be a success story for President Obama, cleaning up the lies and mess from former President Bush.
So no amount of stupid racial dislike from Jack or the other GOP clowns will change history
Sorry Salty. Bush handed Obama a fairly stable Iraq at the time and Biden/Bams knew it.
And I see you chose not to refute any of my points about Obama's fuck ups.
Thats ok. Neither could BP or Laffy.
We can't seriously think that the deaths of nearly 3,000 civilians constituted anything but an epic failure, at all levels of government. As my colleague Peter Bergen notes in riveting detail, there is extensive evidence that George W. Bush's lack of focus on the growing threat, despite signs that Osama bin Laden was planning something epic in the United States, favors Trump's assertion: 9/11 was preventable. Trump may be right.
Sorry Salty. Bush handed Obama a fairly stable Iraq at the time and Biden/Bams knew it.
And I see you chose not to refute any of my points about Obama's fuck ups.
Thats ok. Neither could BP or Laffy.
I am so dissappointed in you. As we discussed last time this issue hit the board, the
“residual force” cliché is meaningless, unless you specify the rules of engagement for the residual force. You were never willing to do that (if I remember correctly) other than to say the Americans would “back up” the Iraqis which is meaningless.
It is very simple. If the rules of engagement are “patrol and engage “ the bad guys, then you are absolutely correct that it is fair to blame Mr. Obama for the growth of ISIS. In effect, this would be a continuing “surge” which we every reason to believe would be effective given the success of the Bush surge.
But you have to be willing to acknowledge the cost. Dead and maimed American solders doing the fighting for the Iraqis- year after year after year. Endless war. And that is why the Republicans and Fox News never mention the rules of engagement when they blame Mr. Obama for this.
If the rules of engagement are “just stay in the Green zone and eat falafel and kababs,” then the notion that this would have prevented the rise of ISIS is poppycock. It has as much weight as “maybe Obama could have negotiated a better Iran agreement.”
So if you are going to fault Mr. Obama for the rise of ISIS, at least be intellectually honest and acknowledge the cost
Its a good thing that I do.
You even agreed with my point.