Politics and Religion

I'm great at negotiating helping both sides find a happy outcome.confused_smile
quadseasonal 27 Reviews 120 reads
posted

Without going into details I'm starting a marriage counselor business.
  Oops... this tread isn't about marriage.

  Why doesn't North Carolina compromise if they want to make new laws, anyone sitting down to pee can use the ladies room ?
   
 If you  pee standing up you must use the manly room, unless the roof is missing and you're  writing in snow.
     
If you stand while peeing, whether man or woman, and you don't lift the seat before peeing, you are banished from all public rest rooms, for eternity.  

 Or do as I do, keep it simple, don't gawk at  anyone or make eye contact with anything not belonging to you, in a public restroom.  
   
  I'm sure someone will use the small child/daughter defense as their rational response.  
     If I had a small child I'd go in there with them  no matter which rest room they used, and pity the fool who tried to tell me which room I should be using.

     
   
Posted By: Dr. joe
are now on one of the most important political philosophical questions ever posed: who decides which toilets will be used by transgender ladies and gentleman: The local municipality? The state government? or the federal government?  
 The President was actually questioned on this at a press conference in London and the English Foreign Service has sent out warnings to English travelers. And Trump and Cruz have attacked each others answers to the question.  
 Until this question was raised by North Carolina and Mississippi, this choice was left to the individual whose bladder or colon was most affected.  
 How disorganized, how haphazard, how downright unAmerican.    
 If only the lovely and intelligent Sasha was running for President, we might have an answer.

-- Modified on 4/23/2016 9:35:17 AM

are now on one of the most important political philosophical questions ever posed: who decides which toilets will be used by transgender ladies and gentleman: The local municipality? The state government? or the federal government?
The President was actually questioned on this at a press conference in London and the English Foreign Service has sent out warnings to English travelers. And Trump and Cruz have attacked each others answers to the question.
Until this question was raised by North Carolina and Mississippi, this choice was left to the individual whose bladder or colon was most affected.  
How disorganized, how haphazard, how downright unAmerican.  
If only the lovely and intelligent Sasha was running for President, we might have an answer.

-- Modified on 4/23/2016 9:35:17 AM

And while everybody has a right to their opinion of course, the outright ignorance I've seen expressed about transgendered people is downright depressing.

One is entitled to an informed, educated, rational opinion.  

No one is entitled to an ignorant, myopic, asinine opinion.

Now back to reading the TER board!

Proponents say gender doesn't matter, all toilets should be open to all.

Following that logic, humans with male parts should use male toilets.

Reason:  Proponents just said it didn't matter which toilet to use, so a male toilet should be just fine.

Everyone is happy.

-- Modified on 4/23/2016 12:09:39 PM

if every place just had the traditional bathrooms plus a unisex one?  I think that would be the simplest approach to stop all the bitching on all sides.

GaGambler112 reads

Why should a business be forced to spend thousands of dollars and use valuable space to build three separate bathrooms to accommodate such a small percentage of people who don't know where to pee? Do you have any idea how much money we are talking about? We are talking about literally BILLIONS of dollars of both public and private money to make your "simple" solution actually happen.

Are you sure you are not just advocating for the plumbers union? and do you have any idea how ridiculous your suggestion is?

Zangari126 reads

This thread probably belongs on the P&R board, but IMO:  
1. If you identify as a certain gender  
 AND
2. You present yourself in public (e.g. your attire ) as a certain gender  
then just use that restroom.  You need to be consistent in this choice.    

 The logical 'AND' above is critical--both premises need to be true.  A guy who's cross-dresses on Halloween cannot use the womens restroom--even though he meets  Premise #2, he fails Premise #1.  This isn't an air-tight argument--style of dress can be androgynous, but that's the best I can do, folks.  I do agree with the OP's take--it's ridiculous that this issue is getting so much attention.   --z

-- Modified on 4/23/2016 5:12:58 AM

In response to this article:
http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/23/a-rape-survivor-speaks-out-about-transgender-bathrooms/
The following was written by a post op transsexual woman who transitioned 15 years ago after fathering two sons. It is compiled from a series of comments on Facebook:
---------------
  This is so misguided and hurtful I wouldn't even know where to start. What a horrible message. I wonder if people consider that transgendered people are far more likely to have survived violent rape and murder attempts than others? The priority ought to be making intelligent decisions.

I will 1000% guarantee you that if you ever are in a restroom and "suspect" that someone might be transgendered, they are a million times more scared of you than you are of them.  

I read the article. It's hate fueled. It alleges the same kind of dehumanizing that for years equated gays with pedophilia and blacks with crime. There is no data to back the claims made. The article admits there is no data and appeals to people's gut feelings, which always what has been used to drive racism, sexism, and general hatreds. In honest fact, more national Republican legislators have abused people in the bathroom but we don't try to send them to a separate room. This article is trying to rally up people to believe in things that are simply not true about their fellow human beings.

This may come as a shock, but people go into the restroom to pee.
 
We try to make laws about "them," the transgendered, gay, women making life choices, disabled people, minority races, etc; and when we make these laws we imagine those other peoples' thoughts and behaviors. We imagine them in our minds, using our brains. Oftentimes we are wrong, because we project our own beliefs and our own tendencies onto people who don't think the same way as us. We allow our own prejudice to cloud our perceptions of others' intentions. When we become transphobic and imagine them as rapists and child abusers we are projecting our own belief system, our own set of constraints on our behavior, onto that other person.

Some people believe the worst about other people. It guides their politics. It guides their us versus them world view. It creates community with like minded people. Some people strive to bring out the best in other people.

 
Imagine for a moment that you are transgendered with the incorrect anatomy. You look like a woman and enter the men's room because that is your anatomy. You've just "announced" what you are. You're getting the crap beat out of you in that men's room, and you might be left for dead. Make no mistake about it.

Imagine that you look like a man but you enter the women's room because of anatomical misfit. You have just scared the hell out of a group of ladies needlessly. If there is a police officer nearby they might even haul you off to jail so that you can undress.

Now, imagine that you are not the best looking woman in the world. You may have even birthed several children. What are you going to say when some pretty young girl starts screaming at you because she believes you've violated the bathroom bill?
 
Who is going to police this law? Who is going to police all of the abuse that it causes to people whose only crime was wanting to pee, and following the new bathroom law? These people who already are the subject of your bad jokes, who FREQUENTLY get death threats, who are sexually abused like no other class, are now also abused in the bathroom to make you feel safe. Do you feel safe by getting people hurt, if those people are ones you kind of think deserve it?

People's brains (yours, mine, everyone's) are organized around axiomatic foundations (the things we believe without proof) and constructions built upon those axioms. Most of us can hardly change some axioms that we believe because they have no construction to introspect. Our minds dutifully resist our attempts to understand those things that we cannot break down any further.

As an example of axiomatic belief the first time someone experiences a major earthquake it will likely change some basic unquestioned belief in the solidness of the earth.

Axioms can change, but it isn't fun. It likely isn't even desired. How dare some group of people force us into questioning our axioms? It's easy to just scream back with exclamation points that a man is this and a woman is that. Why should we have to change our basic thinking to accommodate someone else? How dare these people.

To change one's axioms is hard. But it isn't required. Tolerance would dictate not getting a severely persecuted class hurt further. There are a lot of good people in that group. You could try.  

  Do you feel safe by getting people hurt, if those people are ones you kind of think deserve it?  

  I have learned that I really do not understand another classification of people if examples that I reflexively imagine are typically undesirable stereotypes. In those cases I need to learn more about those people, or take less of a stand on their issues, because my goal is filling my mind with love and I know from experience that like minded people are everywhere.
 

  Do you wonder why this issue has come to the attention of so many States right now? It isn't by chance. Americans from the median income and below continue doing financially worse year after year for forty years. They have anger, but are not sure who or what they are angry with. Rather than deal with the economic inequalities, clever lawmakers peddle laws around push-button social issues like minority groups and abortion. They get the low information voter on their side. These voters are afraid of change, and the voter's intransigence is perfect ammunition to distract people from the real problems. They win elections while getting people to put their heads in the sand and fingers in their ears.

  Why are people who ostensibly want less government also the ones who want more enforceable laws against persecuted groups of people? Why?
 

  Writing respectfully to the reader with enthusiasm for sharing a vision seems relatively much more likely to influence a reader.

This isn't about in person. It is about this facebook post and how the article implies that someone's backward idea of safety trumps the actual safety of people that society mistrusts, dislikes, and ignores.

Why don't you like them? Because transgendered people seem to be streetwalkers and other icky people. They don't seem to have a real condition and perhaps you think some poignant thoughts. You might also conflate them with drag queens. Most of these people became who they are as a result of their hard lives. Many are not very good looking and challenge our visual classification of axiomatic thoughts. It's a burden on you to like them.

Some of these icky people you see on television. Some, you see in person because some of those stereotypes are actual truths. Maybe you hear about some transgendered people casually in public with all the judgments included, because I know how people talk. There certainly are a ton of street walking prostitutes with big mouths who are trans.

Survivors of the kind of childhood rape and molestation that many transgendered children endure, especially in poorer communities, is what causes these antisocial and unlikable behaviors. You don't see it but I am telling you. Believe me. These are not bad people. They are just like you and me. They are... people.

Isn't it easier to be nice to people and not double-down on their burdens in life with extra abuse and misery? Why pass laws like this?  

The issue isn't new. Why not 10, 20, or 30 years ago? You've been peeing with all sorts of women with all kinds of conditions, ailments, and unique gifts your whole life. Why now? Why do you bother imagining what the person looks like in the stall next to you? There are better things to think about.

---------------
Comments?

GaGambler123 reads

and it's just one in a long list of reasons that I think Trump is a thousand times better a candidate and possible POTUS than Cruz.  

I think these Bible Thumpers are going to do a lot more damage to the GOP than Trump could if he built a thousand walls and started deporting second generation Mexicans.  

I will admit that Bush used the very same tactic quite successfully in 2004, but that was then this is now. Where Bush was able to scare little old ladies into voting for him so Steve wouldn't marry Steve, public opinion has changed, that's why political animals like Obama changed their minds on the subject as well. It's not because they have "evolved" it's because career politicians can tell which way the wind is blowing. If the GOP loses control of Congress this year, it won't be because of Trump, it will be because of this ridiculous hard shift to the wacky right, Somehow the GOP just can't help themselves, last election it was Akin, this cycle it looks to be a whole bunch of Akins

Doctor Gonz, I realize you didn't write this, so keep in mind my comments here aren't directed at you, but the author of this piece.  

Posted By: DoctorGonzo
The following was written by a post op transsexual woman who transitioned 15 years ago after fathering two sons.
There's a difference between a T/S and a T/G. One is an unfortunate birth defect and the other is a mental illness. Not a doctor, but I believe T/S people tend to be infertile. A woman cannot father two sons, no more than Willy can give birth.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
I wonder if people consider that transgendered people are far more likely to have survived violent rape and murder attempts than others?
If T/G people are so much more likely to be raped or murdered, then why would they be so comfortable being T/G? Some people just like their pitty parties, regardless if they've actually suffered anything.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
I will 1000% guarantee you that if you ever are in a restroom and "suspect" that someone might be transgendered, they are a million times more scared of you than you are of them.
Claiming to be scared of someone else doesn't mean that we should cater to that person's feelings. You actually do more harm to that person if you do cater to their feelings.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
We try to make laws about "them," the transgendered, gay, women making life choices, disabled people, minority races, etc; and when we make these laws we imagine those other peoples' thoughts and behaviors. We imagine them in our minds, using our brains. Oftentimes we are wrong, because we project our own beliefs and our own tendencies onto people who don't think the same way as us. We allow our own prejudice to cloud our perceptions of others' intentions. When we become transphobic and imagine them as rapists and child abusers we are projecting our own belief system, our own set of constraints on our behavior, onto that other person.
 
It's not being transphobic if I didn't wish for my children (that don't exist) to be around T/G people unsupervised. No more than it would be to not want to leave your children around someone who was clinically depressed or suffering from schizophrenia. T/G people have a mental illness. Some of them just have penis envy.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Imagine for a moment that you are transgendered with the incorrect anatomy. You look like a woman and enter the men's room because that is your anatomy. You've just "announced" what you are. You're getting the crap beat out of you in that men's room, and you might be left for dead. Make no mistake about it.
Yes, because that's what I always look forward to when I'm in a public bathroom. Sitting on some germ infested throne regretting last night's chimichanga and waiting for a T/G person to stroll in so I can BEAT THEM TO DEATH. What the fuck. How fucking hysterical can someone be? Whatever happened to, "This may come as a shock, but people go into the restroom to pee." Or are we only talking about the T/G?  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Imagine that you look like a man but you enter the women's room because of anatomical misfit. You have just scared the hell out of a group of ladies needlessly. If there is a police officer nearby they might even haul you off to jail so that you can undress.
Well, when you live in a culture that always sees men as villains and women as victims, what would you expect?
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Now, imagine that you are not the best looking woman in the world. You may have even birthed several children. What are you going to say when some pretty young girl starts screaming at you because she believes you've violated the bathroom bill?
Whatever happened to squatting behind a bush?
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Who is going to police this law? Who is going to police all of the abuse that it causes to people whose only crime was wanting to pee, and following the new bathroom law? These people who already are the subject of your bad jokes, who FREQUENTLY get death threats, who are sexually abused like no other class, are now also abused in the bathroom to make you feel safe. Do you feel safe by getting people hurt, if those people are ones you kind of think deserve it?
Somebody needs to be put on anti-anxiety medication in a fucking hurry.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
....It's easy to just scream back with exclamation points that a man is this and a woman is that. Why should we have to change our basic thinking to accommodate someone else? How dare these people.
Or change your thinking so that it's not in line with the empirical evidence?  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
To change one's axioms is hard.
Especially when someone wants to change them to live in a fantasy.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Tolerance would dictate not getting a severely persecuted class hurt further. There are a lot of good people in that group. You could try.
Try telling a bunch of coal miners how severely persecuted T/G people are. They might even cough up a black lung for you in solidarity.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
I have learned that I really do not understand another classification of people if examples that I reflexively imagine are typically undesirable stereotypes. In those cases I need to learn more about those people, or take less of a stand on their issues, because my goal is filling my mind with love and I know from experience that like minded people are everywhere.
All people except for the ones you imagine who wait in restrooms to beat T/G people to death. Talk about "undesirable stereotypes".
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Do you wonder why this issue has come to the attention of so many States right now? It isn't by chance. Americans from the median income and below continue doing financially worse year after year for forty years. They have anger, but are not sure who or what they are angry with. Rather than deal with the economic inequalities, clever lawmakers peddle laws around push-button social issues like minority groups and abortion. They get the low information voter on their side. These voters are afraid of change, and the voter's intransigence is perfect ammunition to distract people from the real problems. They win elections while getting people to put their heads in the sand and fingers in their ears.
Yes, because if someone disagrees with you on anything political it must be because they're stupid.  
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Why are people who ostensibly want less government also the ones who want more enforceable laws against persecuted groups of people? Why?
Why are people who want more government the same ones to complain about piles of dead bodies in public restrooms, when no other institution in the history of man has killed people more often than government?
Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Survivors of the kind of childhood rape and molestation that many transgendered children endure, especially in poorer communities, is what causes these antisocial and unlikable behaviors.
Wait, if you're repulsed by someone, why would you rape them or molest them? I guess logic doesn't play too heavily into things when what you're saying is essentially, "feel sorry for me!"  

For the record, I think what North Carolina is doing is bullshit, and it's an obvious political ploy to rally the Evangelical base in that state.

Posted By: willywonka4u
Doctor Gonz, I realize you didn't write this, so keep in mind my comments here aren't directed at you, but the author of this piece.  
Willy, what I did not mention is the author of this piece is a very close friend, someone I trust IMPLICITLY and unconditionally.
She has multiple PhD's in computer technology, fathered two sons, gets paid more per month than most of you make in a year.  
I know we're going to disagree vehemently here willy. I am not going to argue rank and file with you as it is not my place, nor my area of expertise. But it is most definitely hers.

Well, if I'd known she (he?) was a close friend of yours, I might have been more gentle. Then again, if she (he?) makes so much money then she (he?) can afford the anti-anxiety medication.

followme103 reads

Posted By: DoctorGonzo
Posted By: willywonka4u
Doctor Gonz, I realize you didn't write this, so keep in mind my comments here aren't directed at you, but the author of this piece.  
   
 Willy, what I did not mention is the author of this piece is a very close friend, someone I trust IMPLICITLY and unconditionally.  
 She has multiple PhD's in computer technology, fathered two sons, gets paid more per month than most of you make in a year.  
 I know we're going to disagree vehemently here willy. I am not going to argue rank and file with you as it is not my place, nor my area of expertise. But it is most definitely hers.  
   
 
 

You say " She has multiple PhD's in computer technology, fathered two sons,"  

Really SHE FATHERED two sons.......no wonder SHE gets paid more in a month that most make in a year, or perhaps a decade for that matter.

Without going into details I'm starting a marriage counselor business.
  Oops... this tread isn't about marriage.

  Why doesn't North Carolina compromise if they want to make new laws, anyone sitting down to pee can use the ladies room ?
   
 If you  pee standing up you must use the manly room, unless the roof is missing and you're  writing in snow.
     
If you stand while peeing, whether man or woman, and you don't lift the seat before peeing, you are banished from all public rest rooms, for eternity.  

 Or do as I do, keep it simple, don't gawk at  anyone or make eye contact with anything not belonging to you, in a public restroom.  
   
  I'm sure someone will use the small child/daughter defense as their rational response.  
     If I had a small child I'd go in there with them  no matter which rest room they used, and pity the fool who tried to tell me which room I should be using.

     
   

Posted By: Dr. joe
are now on one of the most important political philosophical questions ever posed: who decides which toilets will be used by transgender ladies and gentleman: The local municipality? The state government? or the federal government?  
 The President was actually questioned on this at a press conference in London and the English Foreign Service has sent out warnings to English travelers. And Trump and Cruz have attacked each others answers to the question.  
 Until this question was raised by North Carolina and Mississippi, this choice was left to the individual whose bladder or colon was most affected.  
 How disorganized, how haphazard, how downright unAmerican.    
 If only the lovely and intelligent Sasha was running for President, we might have an answer.

-- Modified on 4/23/2016 9:35:17 AM

FatVern116 reads

Off topic: I use what ever facility is available when ever I'm in need. I go to the men's room first, if it's already occupied, I knock on the lady's room door, no answer, I go in.

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