If you are invited to join P411 with two provider okays, they will give you a free six month membership. Everyone is nervous right now so references are more important than ever. You are right about infrequent hobbying and inability to get references. That's why reviews are just as important for you as they are for the provider. They give you credibility and they aid her in remembering you
While I totally understand and support the need for safety I think providers have gotten lazy when it comes to screening clients. It was becomng very common for a provider to require 2 references. Even on the old site it was getting hard to find one who didn't.
Now let's do the math ... Requiring 2 references meant you have to have 2 different providers who could actually remember and speak for you. This essentially meant you had to be a regular fulltime hobbyist. I mean how is a provider going to remember you 3 months later if she sees dozens of customers a week. But no you need *2*!
So now ask yourself what percentage of hobbyist are infrequent. Say 1-3 of times a year max. Now add the that group the number of new hobbyist. In just talking to guys in general I think we can all agree that most guys would see a provide but the vast majority would not on a regular basis. Think how a guy acts in say Manila, in my experience the hobbyist rate is, no joke, 100% of guys hobby if they knew how and where. Vegas is similar.
To bring this home the vast majority of your customer base will not be able to provide you 1 let alone 2 references. Perhaps the old site made it too easy and thus made the providers lazy. There were provideds who required references who had no reviews!!! It was t always this way so I suspect the old site some how facilitated this "need 2 refernces".
In my case the industry has lost $1,000 in potential business because it just got to hard to find a provider. I tend to hobby about once or twice a year. Even provides who I met couldnt remember me. For the sake of this discussion and the irony .... I am about as nice as they come. I treat the ladies like girlfriends. The providers are so happy. I always do 2 hours, no negogiations, do my research before contacting ... everything. Yet I cant get a date and give up.
I dont have an answer and do respect the need for safety but ladies ... As an industry you need a better system to keep the hobby alive. On the old site the hobby turned towards serving the provider needs first and foremost and as business school teaches its all about the customer. Be creative. Think about it from your customer's point of view.
Oh and making a noob pay $100's for some P411 service aint gonna cut it.
Ball's in your court, no pun intended.
Forgive typos, Im too lazy to correct, then again Im the customer so I can afford to be lazy.
...playing to your advantage and not to the Provider's advantage. You want to see a higher quality of Provider but you want them to lower their standards to accommodate your wishes? Nice! Can't blame you for trying and it never hurts to ask. The easy solution for you is to limit who you see to who doesn't have those standards. I know that there are hundreds of ladies who you could find on sites such as BP who would require limited, if any, background info about yourself. I think the simple solution is for you to join P411, shell out the extra $.XX for the membership fee and start hobbying more often so you can justify offsetting the membership fee to your hobbying experiences.
Now is NOT the time to rethink references--with the closing of the other site, they are more important than ever, and in my experience there is no shortage of gentlemen who are willing and able to provide them. Please explain to me what is "lazy" about requiring two references.... That's called being careful and thorough, and it means that a provider has a good head on her shoulders and values her personal safety. It also means that she's probably a quality provider and she has her life somewhat in order, because she's clearly not desperate for business if she's limiting her potential client pool with reference requirements.
I'd say you're the lazy one here (in fact, you said it yourself lol).... It's as simple as doing your research and starting with a newbie-friendly provider, asking her at the end of the session if you can use her as a reference, and then perhaps giving her a heads up via text or email once you have actually done so, or are about to do so. Most quality providers will agree to this, and will remember you. I give references all the time for men I've only seen once, sometimes a year or more after the fact; I may not remember what they looked like or specific details of the session, but I keep meticulous records and I can tell you for sure whether I've seen someone and whether or not there were any problems. And most other good providers operate in much the same way. The reference system works, and it helps keep us safe. If you can't seem to get your foot in the door, maybe it's time for you to rethink the way you choose and approach providers....
If you are invited to join P411 with two provider okays, they will give you a free six month membership. Everyone is nervous right now so references are more important than ever. You are right about infrequent hobbying and inability to get references. That's why reviews are just as important for you as they are for the provider. They give you credibility and they aid her in remembering you
This post is amazing. I love everything about it. But mostly I love it because it's also just about as wrong as you can get.
Screening - if you want to play with women that don't have such high screening standards... then don't. PLENTY of newbie friendly women who will see you that don't require references. I see ISO newbie friendly all the time. I assume that's where the vast majority of the market you reference get their start. I know I did.
References - EASY to get. Are you letting the referrer know you are using her for a reference before you do so? Some women will deny seeing you for fear that the requester is LE, a SO, and some frankly feel it's rude to expect it without telling them first. When I ask first I get positive responses almost every time.
References - The UGLY. Maybe the women are in fact responding, and the receivers don't care very much for what they say about you. It's also possible they tell you they don't recall you because they don't feel comfortable giving one for you.
P411 - $129 or so, NOT $100s. If you can't afford 10 bucks a month then gtfo.
Safety - Do I even have to say it? If they need the extra cash I'd honestly expect them to drop rates before they expose themselves to crazies.
Attitude - You can be lazy if you like, but the results of your efforts will reflect that level of effort. Men who want good experiences research the girl they want to make sure that she has a good history and that her screening requirements match their willingness to disclose.
If you spent half as much time looking for a newbie friendly woman as you did writing that post you'd be fucking right now
Brilliant post!
Well it seems to me I don't know where you got the idea that the industry is somewhat in the dying stage, as far as I'm concern IMO it gotten so big and alive and it's booming right now, it has slowed down for some and altered for others because the eliminations of pimps and sursprisingly increse of manipulated young ladies mostly gone but most of the elites and the providers requiring the proper references were working harder as ever to reach out to the people like you and not compromising the quality of their standards, as far I am concern they're doing you a favor, you're the one who's not willing to do the work. references are so critical and essential to this ladies the only security/safety tools they have to protect themselve and you're asking them to ease up WT# are you talking about and BTW if you can not afford a back-up service that provides additional security for the ladies like P411, stop whining, work harder, their are a lot of ways to gather references, ie, personal e-mail, website contacts, poems, properly and sincerely wriiten open letters to the ladies and others, if you are gentleman enough to really be a serious hobbyer, plenty of ladies out there willing to help you. Please don't take the short cut, hard work is more satisfying and enjoyable, we've been all there. Thank you ladies don't throw tools away and stand firmly.
Asking for references is "lazy"? How do you figure? That extra step to ensure their safety doesn't seem very lazy to me. It would help you to inform the ladies you see that you'll be using them as a reference. Ask them to save your contact information.
Not sure where you're getting your statistics, but hobbyist see providers WAY more than "1-3 times a year." Notice the key term-- HOBBYist. It is a HOBBY, therefore, much more frequent than you assume.
Also, just because you have references doesn't guarentee an appointment. Judging by your attitude here, I couldn't imagine the ladies you have seen would see you again... nor would they recommend anyone to see you. I know I wouldn't give you a thumbs up.
I concur with the ladies, it is still very important to ask for references and is the opposite of lazy to ask for them. Since The Book ended I have been asking for and getting them with no difficulty. As I have mentioned before, business is brisk and this is not causing many of us to lower our standards of care..
I see the OP's point, somewhat. I'm very newbie-friendly, and don't require or even accept references. I think ladies who require references but not real-life info are playing a dangerous game. By the same token, some ladies may look at my screening process and think it's "lazy" that I don't ask for references. To each her own; we all should do what makes us feel comfortable. Knowing who else a potential client has seen doesn't make me feel better, *unless* I know her personally and her screening is on par with or exceeds mine. Ultimately, if I choose someone and they end up being problematic for me, I'm the only one who has to deal with the consequences (assault, robbery, arrest, etc.). So, I'm totally disinterested in what other ladies feel is acceptable screening, I have to look out for myself.
Where I disagree with the OP: If you don't want to have to provide references, and you don't want to join a verification site, then what exactly is it that you want? Safe, quality providers who will screen you based on gut only? There are plenty of ladies who haven't yet figured out how unsafe it is to see gents anonymously. You know where to find them, so I'm not even going to say where. Stay safe, all.
Maybe you should bring a small gift for the ladies you see to remember you by.. a single white rose, a small box of chocolates, anything, make it unique to You. Be a gentleman and ask her if she will be a reference in the future. I'm sure they'd have no issue remembering you then.
I honestly have no problem at all remembering who I've seen, unless it was 5+ years ago and they left me nothing at all to remember them by except "my name's John I saw you in SF". In that case, they should have a more recent reference.
On the other hand if a guy claims to be new, I'll accept his full legal name and work information. Half will give this no problem and the other small portion doesn't want to give references nor his work information so he is SOL with me. That's okay though there are tons of ladies that will see a guy with no background on him at all.
Either step up how you interact with your companions or pick ladies that don't require screening but don't ask us to risk our safety because You are lazy.
Alyssa, what a very thoughtful response to a provocative, maybe inflammatory post. I often do just what you suggested: lately, I've been bringing Jamba Juice, always seems to be well received. 
I can't say I've ever had a lady not remember me (that i also cared to be remembered by).
Hope all is well with you in this post-(other site) world.
Regards
Eddy
I am in favor of references and would not see anyone who does not ask. But I do have a problem with P411 and providers who ask for a real name and work info. This should all be totally anonymous.
Yes, P411 keeps my info from the provider but it does gather my info and I cannot believe that once it is created it can be thoroughly disposed of by P411.
To me this is about keeping my identity private and not a money issue.
Why is using the reference system a dangerous game? No one takes it as 100% accurate in determining safety but it is all we got. I cannot believe a guy would think its o.k. for a woman to let any body that calls her come to her incall or home and let this stranger in without some kind of safety measure. Would you feel good if your sister or mom let strangers in their homes? I doubt it.
If you don't check for references ladies, please do not put down those who do. I didn't think it was such a big deal until I was physically accosted some years back. That and all the tons of no shows I dealt with on a daily basis. Now I have a modicum of comfort knowing a little something about the gent, be it where he works or that several reputable providers had a great experience with him.
I don't think a person has to reveal any personal info by using the reference system if he doesn't feel comfortable going that route so if a would be client has a negative view of the system, maybe he isn't such a gentleman after all...
Yes, P411 keeps my info from the provider but it does gather my info and I cannot believe that once it is created it can be thoroughly disposed of by P411.
To me this is about keeping my identity private and not a money issue.
I think you misread he is FOR references and AGAINST P411 and personal info because he doesn't like disclosing his personal info. In fact he says he expects it and would not see a girl who doesn't screen with references (relevant part quoted). I think you guys agree - at least in part.
body, including the feds, care about YOUR identity. Promise. When a site is seized, they're only concerned with who owns and operates it.
Bella, you are correct in the limited context of the hobby, but I am thinking combining this data with other stuff to create a picture of me that i have no need for the 'world' to see
Its already been mentioned in this thread, but you do not need to provide your own personal information to sign up with P411.
If you know two providers who are already on p411, they can reference you and you get a FREE 6 month trial membership. Yes that's right, if you know two providers who are already on p411, they can reference you in and you can get a FREE 6 month membership.
After that, pay by cash. No need to provide your personal information or CC, unless you don't know any ladies who use p411.
Do RSK2000 and Date-Check require you to send your personal information?
Providers may ask for 2 references, but I don't think they require a response from all 2. I think they merely ask for 2 so they have a better chance of getting a response.
It's not as painful as you may think. The trick is to see providers who are independent or from an agency/house. Sure, if you see a pimped 18 year old, it's going to be tough to get a reference from her, let alone her remembering you.
Independents and houses/agencies do keep pretty good records. I still use a provider who I last saw over a year ago for a reference and she still gives me one
meet someone with little or no references....see that crackhead STD whore on the corner! I am sure she will fuck you without asking for references!
You are one of the biggest f-king whining losers I ever heard! If you cannot afford to pay for P411 then get your sorry arse out of this P4P hobby. It is dipsh*ts like you that make hobbyist look bad.
I have to agree with the ladies on their responses. Sometimes i don't think that the men understand the steps we take in order to stay safe, and laziness is not what gets it done.
I wanted to respond to the OP and say that 1-3 times a year is still enough for a reference from those ladies, and if you were unmemorable, there are ways to change that. Most ladies will have a way to remember you in case you come back and can therefore provide a reference for you.
Personally if I've seen a gent sporadically, i will let the lady know the amount of time that has lapsed and let her make her own decision. If it's been over a year however, good luck. Perhaps you can do something memorable the next time you meet a lady? Maybe a unique gift such as a CD, sparkling wine, potted plant, or even a different topic of conversation might help, such as your line of work. Using the same email address can be beneficial, as well as writing reviews for them (that's a gift in itself) and lastly having solid accounts in P411 or TER with plenty of okays and whitelist referrals. You might be saving money now, but imagine if you had managed to get an "okay" or referral from those 1-3 ladies a year. You would not be in this situation. And instead of thinking about how the industry has lost money because of it's practices, why not think more on a positive note? It's not the end of the world and using a small percentage of that saved money to invest in P411 for example, will save you time in the future. Good luck!