You say they don't know who they met, so their OK's are of limited value; but, does it matter AT ALL if she knows who she met? For example, if we met, and I go back and say Melina Valentine is awesome (which I'm sure would be my review) then I really don't know whom I met with (assuming of course that Melina is not your real name), does that make my review any less valid (assuming my review is not a fake)? If you didn't ask my real name, would that make your OK any less valid (assuming I'm the account holder)? I don't think that identity matters at all, if I can prove I'm the account holder. And there is a way to prove that I am the account holder, the ID check should stop swapping the john on the account. As a practical matter though, is your point that the ladies are not checking?
Is the LE thing, something you've heard, or has someone you directly know had an issue? Do you think that is common, is it something you really worry about? I haven't heard of that before.
So to your point about the reference being outside the P411 system, do you mean generally that OK's are references, and that providers are just saying that if you have ladies outside P411 set up a reference, BUT if you have an OK that's your reference? I could see that being the case, if you can't have more than one line in that field, that maybe saying "with references" is more inclusive than saying "# OK's" (for those outside the system). Which would explain why I'm suddenly seeing so many or these pop up, and it would explain why this doesn't kill business (as it is more difficult to do a reference than just look up the OK that already right there in the system). I would also mean that my understanding of the "with references" thing is exactly backwards . . . is that how you view it (only confused on this, because your first point was that OK's are of limited value).
Thanks for the good answers, these points help me understand the issue a little better.
Been looking through P411 and noticed that there is a disturbing trend towards "All P411 members - with references" vs Basic Plus #Ok's. Mind you "Basic Plus" without OK's means that the member has been employment verified, and with OK's means he's seen a lady that doesn't think he's a deadbeat, creep, or danger.
I'm not really sure when this crap happened. (Serious WTF here, followed by a big REALLY? And a concerned "Are y'all fuckers crazy or what?")
If I understand this correctly, the ladies are willing to see ANY P411 member as long as they have references . . . and wait for it . . . this is a reference site . . . BAAAMMM! Now, I'm a little smarter than the average bear, maybe a lot fuckin smarter, so I'm clearly missing something here. What is it exactly that is wrong with the OK system? Has it let you ladies down in some way? Is it perhaps because the economy has changed and maybe business is picking up so you feel the need to be more selective (i.e. you want a live voice to tell you how fucking awesome I am)? Is it because so many of you now have personal assistants and need to justify the expense by . . . beefing up the process? Are you getting lunatics with OK's showing up to appointments?
I'm sure everyone has different reasons, and I'm interested to hear them, because at this point, I'm starting to think of it as a GIANT sign that says "Hey, GFY, I'm difficult . . . and worth it." I need some well reasoned views here to help me get over my poor opinion of this practice.
Some of us have had brushes with unsavory individuals and would prefer not to become victims or be victims AGAIN. If bad hobbyists didn't exploit the screening systems, things might be a lot simpler. For now, whatever a provider has put in place for screening is what makes her feel comfortable meeting you. If that makes you uncomfortable, another provider would be better suited for your next meeting. Paranoia isn't sexy and makes for very bad meetings.
If the history on the hobbyist's P411 account isn't very current, I'd like an update from another reputable provider. The lady you saw in 2008 probably isn't going to remember you. I'd like some reassurance you're still the same sweet hobbyist you've always been and not a modern day version of Falling Down with an ax to grind.
Many ladies use multiple resources to screen clients. For me, reference sites will help you obtain an appointment faster but doesn't replace my website screening questions.
An example of a guy not being ok but managed to get an okay...
We are required to give an okay even if he somewhere down the line shorted us (after a whole crap load of visits). He eventually got banned for some other practices but in the meantime I was made to give an okay. Yes I did tell Gina why I wouldn't give an okay but it popped up anyways.
WLs and references are voluntary, P411 okays are not (if under certain circumstances).
If the history on the hobbyist's P411 account isn't very current, I'd like an update from another reputable provider. The lady you saw in 2008 probably isn't going to remember you. I'd like some reassurance you're still the same sweet hobbyist you've always been and not a modern day version of Falling Down with an ax to grind.
Many ladies use multiple resources to screen clients. For me, reference sites will help you obtain an appointment faster but doesn't replace my website screening questions.
So, you can't revoke an OK once one is given? What about TER, can you revoke a Whitelist that you've previously given?
You can't revoke an Okay unless it is for a very serious reason. Basically he has to be dangerous or hooked up with Uncle Leo.
You can always take away WLs (or update them) without a hassle. If anyone cares to know, you can update WLs to make them more recent by first deleting the WL and then WLing them again. It helps the guys out who have been regulars for years but are seeking newer WLs than the original (from 6 years ago lol).
I agree Paranoia is not sexy, which is why the all the TRADE CRAFT we use with the screening questions, internet background checks, and then the two call system are kind of off putting; but, I'm sure you meant it the other way, as hobbyists just being concerned with providing personal information after they have all ready been vetted once.
I can see that a stale profile is a concern. But realize that for those of us on the other end . . . shit I'm not GaGambler, I don't get to fuck every day, or every other day, or every other month; maybe three times a year four if it's a good year, and all this happens in spurts, AND more than half these women aren't part of a referral site nor a reference system, so keeping a profile current requires a lot of fucking . . . how to many of us not have stale profiles? It also suggests that we have a steady relationship with a provider to remember us, but I've already got a wife, I don't need another, I much prefer one and done, with an occasional repeat. The OK system with a referral site works with this better than a reference system,
I mean no offence, but most ladies can't even remember to respond to emails or show up on time (hence all the assistants), and now they're supposed to remember that they fucked me? I remember a great session with a lady, and we had great chemistry and great sex, then 18 months later we met again, we fucked, it was not close to the previous session, even her attitude was different. I looked PRECISELY the same and acted the same, no changes at all, and I mentioned we got things done faster the last time, and she was stunned because she had no idea she had been with me before. And this was a legend in her area, a solid performer, very consistent, always on time, many years of experience. I considered this to be a good thing, because I strive to be forgotten, and she did. It also means that no one, not even she knows I fucked her four times!
But if the profile shows many OK's and at least one is with in the last year, does that not get you to the same place as the 20 questions? Does it really help to be regaled with stories from previous providers about this particular hobbyist? I mean, how charming do I have to be? I'm very charming, but there is only so much I can do in an hour to make a lady remember me for years to come . . .
1. I meant Paranoia for either person. You were vetted by a third party whose primary focus is their bottom line, not provider safety. Again, if you're not comfortable, find another provider.
2. I think Melina covered this nicely.
3. I don't know what to tell you regarding her memory.
4. Depends on the provider. I started screening potential meeting partners before I ever had access to these tools. There are A LOT of us that have come up this way. To assume we all hold those tools with the same value is inaccurate.
I don't know about you, but I know a LOT of guys who don't take reviews at face value and INSIST on doing a bit of back channeling before booking with a lady no matter how good her reviews are, especially if the reviews are from unknowns.
How is this any different than a lady wanting one additional layer of confidence before putting herself naked in a room with a guy twice her size?
I am one of those guys who will only jump through so many hoops in order to spend my money on a woman, but that doesn't mean I don't understand WHY some ladies are just a little extra careful. The P 411 system is good, but just like TER it is by no means perfect. I don't tell ladies how to do their screening, but if it starts taking too long, I simply move on to the next woman. It's really not that hard a concept to grasp, any more than "why do some hookers charge so much?"
Like GaGambler said. TER is a review site that clients used as an additional to help in research the Provider. Providers normally use extra measures to help protect themselves. For one, the provider doesn't know if you are good or not. They have to develop a comfort level in seeing you. Is it better for the provider to be extra careful to protect you from any setup?
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... match up, and if that is worth all the friction to the transaction, on both sides.
I usually don't take a review at face value, I read several. But, isn't this like the number of OK's a woman will accept? They often post willing to see basic plus 2, 3, 5, 7 OK's; isn't that her getting multiple opinions? 7 Ladies once upon a time said this: Johnnycade hobbyist was a good client, shame I can't tell you anymore about him 
I mean what if I had 57 OK's, is that not as good as a couple of references? More importantly, at the end of they day, looking at the purpose and final result of this whole system, aren't the johns just on the pass/fail system? We don't get graded, our details are not important, there are only a few things that would make a client NOT OK, and those are not our better qualities, they are just true/false questions (not LEO, paid, not violent) - the rest is irrelevant; and once that point is ascertained, the transaction is a go; all of the rest of the screening type questions cannot provide BETTER information than that, if the goal on both sides is to have a mutually beneficial transaction. When I look at it this way, I just can't see how being remembered by name or written down in a provider's business journal for directly communication enhances the requirement, which is to determine if we are "OK" to meet with.
I'm not sure how the referral sites are not perfect, but like you, I'm sure they aren't. One lady mentioned that she had to give an OK. I would assume that it is not common, otherwise there would be no referral site, because it would be worthless. And that's what I'm after: IS that the case? IS the referral site worthless? Is an OK, is 5 OK's, 7, or 57 OK's worthless, and only a directly communicated reference sufficient . . . cause if that's the case maybe we don't need an OK system, or a Whitelist, we're just back where we started . . . word of mouth.
As for word of mouth, I see how difficult it is for come of these ladies to respond to my communications or show up to an appointment, and that is to make money for herself, how fuckin impossible is it to respond to some other random provider with a question about some guy she doesn't remember? I would chalk that up to very unlikely. And I've made this point before, that if we have to see 3 or 4 to get one reliable reference (assuming that we can see any others without a reference in the first place) how much friction is that? I think of that as an unsustainable situation, and would probably run out to start a referral site to hold information in escrow and as a repository to reduce that friction . . . but then wouldn't I just be another worthless referral site?
All said, I'm more inclined towards your thought . . . fuck it, and move on to the next.
Would anyone hire or be hired on here say? Before I am going to jump in beds to enjoy GFE with anyone, I want to know as much about them as possible and I'm sure a provider does too. Neither party can be too careful.
On my profile, I have that I am willing to see "All members with references". I always understood one OK = one reference. Now, depending on that reference, or references, I may or may not ask for additional information from you, it just depends.
xoxo
Caylee
Her last comment was your point, I think, that these are the same thing. If that's the way you and her read it, then it's more inclusive to allow for referrals outside the P411 system. I may have the meaning backwards. Let's see if other ladies chime in on their interpretation. Thanks for the info.
Yes, it IS more inclusive to accept P411 members with references outside of the P411 system, in addition to P411 Okays of course (members with references). There are some ladies who only want P411 members who also have P411 Okays (basic plus *). There are other ladies who accept all members, even if they don't have Okays yet. Some ladies list newbie friendly. I list newbie friendly since I do my own verification anyway. References & Okays are a bonus.
I hope this helps.