Warning this post made by someone that studied for two years with a Biritual Canonist and Judicial Vicar (oh and in case you are wondering that would be the guy that knows Church Law...the guy that handles things like Annulments and Divorce), in preparation to become a nun (eh...I only wanted to become a nun to meet women. ;0) )...it may get a bit odd...my apologies in advance.
The other replies to your post deal with the psychology of your situation, but since you made mention of your religion, and the way you made your statement it seems to indicate a certain devotion, I thought perhaps I would respond to that.
I think perhaps you need to speak with your priest. They do offer marriage counselling, and if your wife will not go with you, he will speak with you alone.
Here is the thing, you refuse to get a divorce because you are Catholic and take your vows seriously, you see leaving your wife and breaking your vow as a sin...
except, excessive drinking to the point you pass out and adultry are sins too. The biggest difference I see in what you have written is that for a divorce you would be truly contrite, but for the "band-aids" of alcohol and providers you aren't. So, which is worse, one sin you are heartily sorry for or repeated sin your are not, done to avoid the one sin for which you would have contrition?
It is said that we all have our crosses to bear...but even Jesus allowed another to shoulder the burden of his cross...it is possible that it is simply time for you to put down your cross.
Marriage should be a joyus union, and yet there is nothing in your post that indicates joy. What is indicated is pain and suffering, what should be a union of love, it seems, has become a prison of emotional suffering, one that is leading you further away from yourself, your G-d, and your wife.
Marriage is a sacrament, it should confer on you a sanctifying grace...does your marriage feel like a santifying grace? or more like a unending burden?
Here is the thing...
Many Catholics misunderstand the Church's stance on divorce...it is not what many assume.
You won't be excommunicated.
You can still attand Mass and receive Communion.
You can still be a Lector, a Eucharistic Minister, a Parish Council member a sponsor for Confirmation, etc.
The only things you can not do if you are divorced are:
Remarry in the Church without first obtaining an annulment. (If you remarry outside of the Church, the Church will not acknowledge your marriage.)
You can't become a Deacon or a Priest.
You say that your marriage has been like this for 20 years...that is a very long time to shoulder a burden, to be without the most basic shows of human emotion and affection.
If you remain with your wife only because you are Catholic and believe that the Church has a fierce pohibition against divorce...you are wrong in that, the Church allows for Civil Divorce, you will not be punished for seeking to end your marriage...you are being punished now, by your wife and by yourself, while trying to remain in your marriage though.
No one wants to see you suffer, denied intimacy and kindness from your spouse, destroying your self with alcohol and guilt...not the Church, not G-d...no one.
Sorry if this is kind of heavy or weird...but I thought since I actually know this stuff...it might help if someone told you that divorce in the Church is not what you may think it is.
Best of luck to you in all things...take care and be well.
I'm in my mid 50's and in great shape. Most think I am 40 or so. I love sex but the old story - my wife is no longer interested. Actually she has not been interested for the past 20 or so years - she lost interest just after the kids came. I have tried everything to get her to change but she won't, and I refuse to force her. I used to scream and cry in utter frustration on the drive to work every day. My sex life was sex probably once every 6 - 8 weeks and i couldn't touch her anyplace except between her knees and upper thigs. In fact, she insisted in making love with most of her clothes on. I actually havn't seen her naked in probably 15 years or so. It's gotten worse now and I have taken up alcohol every night till I pass out and lose feeling in my body. I can't even get my wife to give me a hand job. She says, it would only make it worse for me.
Here's the thing. I love her and I know she loves me. She just isn't into any intimacy at all. I won't divorce her (I am Catholic). Am I so bad that I have seen escorts for the intimacy I crave so badly? It doesn't take the place of making love to my wife, but it does seem to take the edge off a bit. It's so good to feel someone touch me if even only for an hour or so a couple time a month. I've found out that I don't drink so much anymore since I have been seeing professionals for a while now. I even seem to get along better with my wife.
Am I so wrong to do this, am I evil for doing this?
My dear Poker2,
The Catholic guilt? Ego te absolvo. No, you are not evil whatsoever. But you and your wife are not communicating on a deep level about this issue. My suggestion is to find a good counselor or therapist and start working on this serious problem ASAP.
You see, it's one thing to crave sex, but another one to crave intimacy. You are saying that "she isn't into intimacy at all." She makes love with her clothes on. Does she have deep shame about her body? has she been sexually abused in the past?
All these signals point to the fact that your intimate communication is cut off and dead...and you need to start working on it immediately to revive it, if you are to continue without more problems down the line. Of course, seeing providers is a band-aid solution. It takes care of your immediate physical needs. But the deeper sadness, the frustration, the resentment, the emptiness...that's not getting addressed. And so, you try to numb your impacted feelings with alcohol.
I'm very concerned with your drinking. I'm glad you are able to put it out in the posting, because hopefully, you'll be able to tell someone professional and caring about this problem, not to mention, discussing it with your wife openly and bluntly.
We all have a need for physical touch. Maybe your wife has a pet, or children, or grandkids that she hugs and kisses. But her needs may stop right there, due to menopause and psychological issues. But for you, that's simply not enough. And as it is, it seems that you're not getting normal physical attention from your wife at all.
Please, please go to a therapist or a marriage counselor. I'm not saying that you need to stop seeing providers, but your marriage is very, very troubled on a very deep level. In the end, you may not get the sex you need from your wife, but at least you'll have some answers as to why - communicated to you in a caring and sensitive manner.
Let me know what city/state you live in, and I may be able to recommend someone,
the Love Goddess
Believe me, I have tried to get "us" to see someone and find out what the problem is. My wife just refuses to go. She always says she is fine and does not need counseling. It's been like this for some 20 years. My wife is the boss, and I guess that I am just whipped. She doesn't seem to need any kind of physical intimacy. She is more interested in watching television than being near me in a physical sense. As I said in my original post, I know she loves me, and I love her. She just doesn't need me to even touch her. I guess I'll just have to keep doing what I need to satisfy my longings for physical contact.
Yes, Poker2,
it's a bad deal. At least you have tried. I don't understand why you want to be with her any longer. Despite your religious beliefs, I would urge you to at least separate from her. Catholics all over the world are able to separate legally. What she is doing to you - as you are describing it, at least - is very cruel and emotionally abusive. Try to get counseling alone then. Maybe it will strengthen you to be able to leave this cruel person.
Good luck,
the Love Goddess
This is only one persons opinion, i'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but I stayed married, for 25 yrs., to a gal who suffered from bi-polar disorder. Her life ended, sadly, about a year ago, in the usual way for a person with that affliction. Bi-polar medications almost always reduce (drastically) ones sex drive, sometimes I'd go several months without any at all. I've got some idea how you feel, as I struggled with the same thoughts. Looking back, I can say, honestly, you're NOT wrong, or evil. You're actually looking past the idiotic teachings of society, and seeing reality for what it actually is. Commendable... What you've done here, by meeting your needs with providers, is shifted the power struggle, that we all have, more to the center. Whoever controls the sex controls the relationship....Though she probably doesn't know it, that's her power over you. Alcohol is sort of your retaliation against your percieved abuse by her (power over her). When you started seeing providers, it removed her power over you, thus you don't need the alcohol as much. You can also talk to her in a more relaxed fashion, more like a friend, not a slave. I encourage you to keep it up, it really balanced things out for me when I did. Had providers not been there when I needed them, I would have been much worse off than I was.
Warning this post made by someone that studied for two years with a Biritual Canonist and Judicial Vicar (oh and in case you are wondering that would be the guy that knows Church Law...the guy that handles things like Annulments and Divorce), in preparation to become a nun (eh...I only wanted to become a nun to meet women. ;0) )...it may get a bit odd...my apologies in advance.
The other replies to your post deal with the psychology of your situation, but since you made mention of your religion, and the way you made your statement it seems to indicate a certain devotion, I thought perhaps I would respond to that.
I think perhaps you need to speak with your priest. They do offer marriage counselling, and if your wife will not go with you, he will speak with you alone.
Here is the thing, you refuse to get a divorce because you are Catholic and take your vows seriously, you see leaving your wife and breaking your vow as a sin...
except, excessive drinking to the point you pass out and adultry are sins too. The biggest difference I see in what you have written is that for a divorce you would be truly contrite, but for the "band-aids" of alcohol and providers you aren't. So, which is worse, one sin you are heartily sorry for or repeated sin your are not, done to avoid the one sin for which you would have contrition?
It is said that we all have our crosses to bear...but even Jesus allowed another to shoulder the burden of his cross...it is possible that it is simply time for you to put down your cross.
Marriage should be a joyus union, and yet there is nothing in your post that indicates joy. What is indicated is pain and suffering, what should be a union of love, it seems, has become a prison of emotional suffering, one that is leading you further away from yourself, your G-d, and your wife.
Marriage is a sacrament, it should confer on you a sanctifying grace...does your marriage feel like a santifying grace? or more like a unending burden?
Here is the thing...
Many Catholics misunderstand the Church's stance on divorce...it is not what many assume.
You won't be excommunicated.
You can still attand Mass and receive Communion.
You can still be a Lector, a Eucharistic Minister, a Parish Council member a sponsor for Confirmation, etc.
The only things you can not do if you are divorced are:
Remarry in the Church without first obtaining an annulment. (If you remarry outside of the Church, the Church will not acknowledge your marriage.)
You can't become a Deacon or a Priest.
You say that your marriage has been like this for 20 years...that is a very long time to shoulder a burden, to be without the most basic shows of human emotion and affection.
If you remain with your wife only because you are Catholic and believe that the Church has a fierce pohibition against divorce...you are wrong in that, the Church allows for Civil Divorce, you will not be punished for seeking to end your marriage...you are being punished now, by your wife and by yourself, while trying to remain in your marriage though.
No one wants to see you suffer, denied intimacy and kindness from your spouse, destroying your self with alcohol and guilt...not the Church, not G-d...no one.
Sorry if this is kind of heavy or weird...but I thought since I actually know this stuff...it might help if someone told you that divorce in the Church is not what you may think it is.
Best of luck to you in all things...take care and be well.
eom
Really good stuff, Web. Religion is an interesting thing, in my experience, it's usually used as a means of control. Mostly through fear and guilt. I think Poker is looking for some sort of truth here, and religion purports itself as being total truth, and he's questioning this. So did I, and here's what I've come up with. All religions have some sort of a book of truth, I'll use the Bible. If I'm giong to find the real truth in anything, I'll start with the Bible. To me, it's true, but since it's written for all time, it's general, not detailed. Next is nature, which includes science, also psychology. I'm talking true science, not the junk opinions we're fed from birth. An example of true psychology is---oppression breeds contempt. An example of junk psychology is---the law is the law, and must be obeyed. The last way is personal experience. I know what I've lived. Here's an example of the whole thing; if I'm going to drive a nail into a board, there's not much in the Bible to tell me to tap lightly when I'm holding the nail. Basic physics dictates that if my hand is in danger of absorbing the energy stored in the movement of the hammer, then it would be wise to minimize the force of said hammer. If I fail to consider physics, only one personal experience will suffice..... Your experience is pain, no one likes it. You're doing something to get out of it, as you should. Which motivation is stronger, your pain, or your religion? Perspective is everything, in my opinion.
Hey, thanks for your reply. It's appreciated. I was aware of what you had said in your post. In fact, my wife and I were participants in the pre-marriage program at our parish where we talked to couples preparing for marriage. Our training included all of what you talked about. Believe it or not, I truly and with my whole heart love my wife and if I divorced I think my whole life would go down the drain. And like I said in my original post - my wife truly and with her whole heart loves me. The only problem, and I can't really blame my wife, is that she has lost interest in sex, not in loving me. I guess seeing a provider once in a while solves my dilema, and since I leave my wife alone sexually,like she wants, it solves her dilema. It actually makes things better between us, and I guess that's why I don't consider my seeing a provider occasionally as a big sin. A bigger sin would be to remain frustrated and take it out on my wife or in drinking. I look upon it as a necessary evil. I know I'm probably wrong and will probably be severly punished for what I am doing, but, this may seem funny or ironic, I loe my wife too much to not do it.
I don't think you're going to be punished at all. We are a nation of rules and laws, violate them and you're punished. That's got alot to do with why we're in the horrible shape we're in now. God is a God of grace and more importantly, a God of reality. For Him to punish you for choosing the lesser of two evils makes a mockery out of His justice. I'm no preacher, just my opinion.
It'll be the best thing you can do, even if it costs you every dollar you have, every friend you have, and every bottle of booze in the liquor cabinet.
The Good Lord does not require us to be miserable in our choices of a life partner. You didn't know it would be this way when you asked her to marry you. Maybe I'm hard to please, but I get those feelings when I've been without for ten days! (No, I'm not hobbying much these days...)
You're not bad or evil or anything like that, Poker - you're human - and so's your wife.
There could be some other things going on with her, physiologically or even psychologically. Hormonal changes. A mid-life crisis of sorts perhaps. You said that she lost interest just after the kids came. How many kids have there been? Was the loss of interest in intimacy increasing after each child? Strange question, but were there any problems with any of the births, something that might make her really shy away from other pregnancies - and consequently, intimacy?
Just an idea here but do you and your wife have any date nights set up? Dinner, movie, a stroll. Time for some popcorn, kick the feet up on the coffee table, the two of you settle back and watch some movies at home, maybe. No jobs, no neighbors, no kids - just the two of you - no one else.
Intimacy's a pretty huge thing to build and discover. A smile, a laugh, a shared moment - those can be great ways to (eventually) work towards it.
Now lay off the guilt, and enjoy 
...that He's now giving you some other lady(ies) to become intimate with?
You're not getting any physical intimacy from your wife. Yet, since you love her, you've made a brave (and rare) decision stay with her.
Your provider(s) could be your heavenly reward. Particularly one(s) who could provide you some friendship and real understanding of your situation...along with the sex.
In a day when prostitution was much more dangerous then it is now (Remember, no condoms and no modern medicine), Jesus did not scorn prostitutes and was friendly with them.
Yes, according to later-writtten church stories, he reportedly said, way back then, "Sin no more". But would he really say those same words *today*...when the circumstances and degrees of risk are quite different?
I'm rather late in joining this thread but do have what I think is an important question to ask you. You have received some really good advice in this thread, particularly from LG and WebTerrorist. And I echo the advice that you speak with your priest or a counselor to sort out your own feelings about your marriage. And, just for the record, I don't think you are evil. I doubt that anyone on this forum does.
You have said that your wife isn't into intimacy at all and that she doesn't think that anything is wrong with her. It seems likely that her attitude will not change. My questions are these. Are you willing to continue in such an unhappy marriage for another 20+ years if things don't change? Would you choose to stay in the marriage if it were not for your religious beliefs? If so, can you articulate to yourself or a counselor what those reasons are?
As one who has been in a similar situation I empathize with you. I have chosen to stay because there are so many other aspects to the marriage that make it worth it. She is my best friend, many common interests, we still make each other laugh, so much shared history etc. I don't want to give those things up. But I also have to take care of my sexual needs. And I don't think I'm evil because I see a provider occasionally. Neither are you.
But if there are no other reasons like the above to stay, I urge you to consider leaving the marriage. You sound very unhappy. In the final analysis you will have to take whatever action is appropriate for you to make yourself happy. Good luck.
well, Phred, as in your case, my wife is my very best friend. We have been thru a lot together and rely on each other for support for everything except sex. We have two great kids, and live a very comfortable life. I couldn't imagine a day without my wife. There is nothing we would not do for each other - and once again, except the sex part. Since I have seen a provider for the sex part, I think that out "other" life has been better. Like I said before, I can't conceive a life without my wife and best friend.